Strike questions

[Steve Manfred]

Hi all.

I've had a round trip on a Southwest Chief roomette scheduled for mid-February for some months now. It's tied in to a specific event I'm attending, so I can't change the date, and am getting very concerned that there may not be a train for me to take come Feb. 12 due to strike action.

If a strike does happen, does anyone have any idea what Amtrak would do to compensate advance ticket holders? Would we get a full refund? Would we perhaps instead have substitute transportation booked and paid for for us? (In my case it'd have to be bus as I don't fly.)

Also, what odds would people here put on there being a strike?

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Personaly I don't see strike happening, the president can not afford a economic disruption this close to presidential election.

A strike for two days would cost the USA more than just giving the unions what they wanted and what the Presidential emergency board recommended.

 

[MrFSS]

Hi all.
I've had a round trip on a Southwest Chief roomette scheduled for mid-February for some months now. It's tied in to a specific event I'm attending, so I can't change the date, and am getting very concerned that there may not be a train for me to take come Feb. 12 due to strike action.

If a strike does happen, does anyone have any idea what Amtrak would do to compensate advance ticket holders? Would we get a full refund? Would we perhaps instead have substitute transportation booked and paid for for us? (In my case it'd have to be bus as I don't fly.)

Also, what odds would people here put on there being a strike?

Steve - I will be on the SWC leaving 2/12 from LAX to CHI. Which way are you going, first?

 

[Steve Manfred]

Steve - I will be on the SWC leaving 2/12 from LAX to CHI. Which way are you going, first?

The other way. I'm going from Fort Madison, IA to LA starting on 2/12.

 

[MrFSS]

Steve - I will be on the SWC leaving 2/12 from LAX to CHI. Which way are you going, first?

The other way. I'm going from Fort Madison, IA to LA starting on 2/12.

Well - we can wave at each other along the way!

 

[VentureForth]

According to this article, a strike could occur as early as 12:01 AM on Jan 30. Interestingly as we armchair quarterback the whole operation from our PCs, here are the two biggest sticking points:

Amtrak and union leaders say the main sticking points are over retroactive wage hikes and work rule reform.

Personally, I think that retroactive wage hikes are silly. If they can't cope without a pay raise, then they ought to find other work. I've had several years without a wage increase (not even cost of living). And as fare as work rule reform goes, I don't know what all this means, but I'm afraid that it could mean that some workers are going to have to get off their butts and work for their living.

Also, with regards to this quote:

"I don't really think you can go on strike against the public good so I think it would absolutely ludicrous, in violation of the law, and they should all be locked up." -- Jack Sullivan, LIRR rider

I think that's a pretty wrong attitude for the public to take. Of course, this is the sort of inflamation that the media loves. We're not talking air traffic controllers here.

 

[AlanB]

Amtrak and union leaders say the main sticking points are over retroactive wage hikes and work rule reform.

Personally, I think that retroactive wage hikes are silly. If they can't cope without a pay raise, then they ought to find other work. I've had several years without a wage increase (not even cost of living). And as fare as work rule reform goes, I don't know what all this means, but I'm afraid that it could mean that some workers are going to have to get off their butts and work for their living.

There are many different work rule changes that Amtrak is seeking and quite honestly I'm not sure what they all are. However, one example is that currently Amtrak cannot call a sleeping car attendant in to work for example in the dining car as a waiter/waitress. That's considered a different craft. This hurts flexibility in scheduling and forces Amtrak to hire more people just to cover the schedules.

Oddly enough, the Autotrain operates under a different contract and there they can and do regularly swap jobs between coach attendant, dining car attendant, sleeping car attendant, and cafe attendant. This is one reason, although not the only reason that the AT does rather well financially. It still doesn't turn a profit, but it does come much closer than most of the other LD's.

"I don't really think you can go on strike against the public good so I think it would absolutely ludicrous, in violation of the law, and they should all be locked up." -- Jack Sullivan, LIRR rider

I think that's a pretty wrong attitude for the public to take. Of course, this is the sort of inflamation that the media loves. We're not talking air traffic controllers here.

Actually since the person being quoted is a New Yorker, it's not all that surprising of a statement. The reason being that here in NY, it is against State law for transit workers to strike. They actually can be arrested and fined for striking under the Taylor Act.

 

[had8ley]

Personaly I don't see strike happening, the president can not afford a economic disruption this close to presidential election.A strike for two days would cost the USA more than just giving the unions what they wanted and what the Presidential emergency board recommended.

I would bet a case of good Louisiana hot sauce that this is exactly what will happen.

 

[had8ley]

Actually since the person being quoted is a New Yorker, it's not all that surprising of a statement. The reason being that here in NY, it is against State law for transit workers to strike. They actually can be arrested and fined for striking under the Taylor Act.

I don't think that all the posters remember Ronald Reagan firing ALL the PATCO air traffic controllers who walked the picket lines. You would have thought it would have brought the nation to its knees but didn't. Under the Railway Labor Act unionists do have the right to strike after an exhaustive series of negotiations and mediation. What will probably come down is a PEB ; Presidential Emergency Board decision. A sideline that I did not know until a few years ago is that airline employees are also covered by the Railway Labor Act.

 

[wayman]

A sideline that I did not know until a few years ago is that airline employees are also covered by the Railway Labor Act.

Airlines covered by the same laws as railroads... hmm... maybe *that*'s why flying takes so much longer than advertised: CSX and UP own the airspace :lol:

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Actually since the person being quoted is a New Yorker, it's not all that surprising of a statement. The reason being that here in NY, it is against State law for transit workers to strike. They actually can be arrested and fined for striking under the Taylor Act.

I don't think that all the posters remember Ronald Reagan firing ALL the PATCO air traffic controllers who walked the picket lines. You would have thought it would have brought the nation to its knees but didn't. Under the Railway Labor Act unionists do have the right to strike after an exhaustive series of negotiations and mediation. What will probably come down is a PEB ; Presidential Emergency Board decision. A sideline that I did not know until a few years ago is that airline employees are also covered by the Railway Labor Act.

Your correct, the PATCO strike was a Illegal strike and therefore the president acted.

This strike would be 100% legal and since the PEB has made the recommendation its safe to assume that Kumante is making a lot of calls to Washington to get the extra money before they hand his ass to him.

 

[VentureForth]

There are many different work rule changes that Amtrak is seeking and quite honestly I'm not sure what they all are. However, one example is that currently Amtrak cannot call a sleeping car attendant in to work for example in the dining car as a waiter/waitress. That's considered a different craft. This hurts flexibility in scheduling and forces Amtrak to hire more people just to cover the schedules.

It would be interesting to know what the stand-still issues are. I believe that the jobs should be categorized high-tip, low/no tip, and operations. That way a sleeper attendant could work in the diner and vice versa (if so trained) because they rake in a similar amount of money. LSAs are rarely tipped and should stay where they are unless re-statused to the tipping world. Hopefully their base pay is a bit higher, even though the cash makes the difference for the other two jobs. Their job can interchange with snack car. Finally, conductors and engineers could swap if they were cross trained, otherwise they stay put where they serve.

 

[VentureForth]

Another point - there are 8 unions representing Amtrak employees. This has GOT to hurt them!! Is it one for every parent railroad? Is it one for every discipline (ie: train ops, service crew, shop, electric, plumbing ... I can't even think of three more)?

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Another point - there are 8 unions representing Amtrak employees. This has GOT to hurt them!! Is it one for every parent railroad? Is it one for every discipline (ie: train ops, service crew, shop, electric, plumbing ... I can't even think of three more)?

There are probably 14 or so unions for different crafts , not all may be right.

Engineers - BLET

Conductors = UTU

Electricians IBEW

Carman =TWU

Coach cleaners =TWU

Dispatchers = ATDA

Shop supervisors= ARSA

Boiler makers - The International Brotherhood of Boilermakers

Machinist = IAMAW

Track workers = TWU

Clerks = TCU

Etc

Federal law says any group of workers can elect to be represented by any union of their chosing.

As for crossing crafts nobody has to work outside a craft their union contract does not cover

 

[PRR 60]

Amtrak is a unique situation. They are technically a "private" company. They are a "private" company that is utterly dependant on public tax funding for over 40% of its total revenue. But Amtrak, a "private" company, also controls the ability of several much larger public agencies to use property owned by the public - the NEC (Amtrak owns the NEC and the US DOT owns Amtrak). As employees of a "private" corporation, the Railway Labor Act applies to Amtrak labor relations. Amtrak employees, like those at CSX and United Airlines, can strike following all the steps set forth by the RLA. But I cannot think of many instances where a strike by a private company would so directly and adversely affect public agencies and government operations as a strike at Amtrak. If all Amtrak impacted was Amtrak train operations, then a strike would be an annoyance, in some area a major annoyance, but probably no more so than CSX or United Airlines being on strike. But shutting down NJ Transit, large portions of SEPTA, MARC, VRE, and maybe even the LIRR would result in disruptions over an above the impact that Amtrak as an individual private entity should have. In other words, Amtrak the fly has the ability to cripple the elephant. It would be like FedEx going on strike and shuttling down the USPS and all mail service.

I think, given the affect on public agencies and the taxpayers, an Amtrak strike will be stopped by immediate federal legislation. A settlement would be imposed. You would be surprised how fast Congress can act when inspired, and believe me, they would be inspired. I think a strike would also risk the end of Amtrak's "ownership" and operation of the NEC. There is no reason for a private company to own and operate a public asset like the NEC with the ability to hold the public hostage to either its whims or the whims of labor. The NEC should be operated by the DOT just like the FAA operates the ATC system with Amtrak being one of the entities running trains. Either that, or reality should be recognized, and Amtrak reconstituted as an agency of the DOT with all the controls and oversights that being a government agency entails.

So, to the unions and to Amtrak. Strike at your own risk. I don't think either of you will like the outcome if you do.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

It would be interesting to know what the stand-still issues are. I believe that the jobs should be categorized high-tip, low/no tip, and operations. That way a sleeper attendant could work in the diner and vice versa (if so trained) because they rake in a similar amount of money. LSAs are rarely tipped and should stay where they are unless re-statused to the tipping world. Hopefully their base pay is a bit higher, even though the cash makes the difference for the other two jobs. Their job can interchange with snack car. Finally, conductors and engineers could swap if they were cross trained, otherwise they stay put where they serve.

Conductor and engineer strike me as rather different jobs. The conductor needs to be able to interact with the public in situations that are occasionally quite challenging on occasions where there are difficult passengers, and there are probably capable engineers who don't want to have those responsibilities. And I get the impression that the engineer probably needs to have a lot of technical knowlege about how the locomotive works that a conductor doesn't need; would Amtrak benefit from disqualifying someone who can deal well with difficult passengers from being a conductor just because they didn't have the right aptitude for understanding the machinery?

 

[GG-1]

I don't think that all the posters remember Ronald Reagan firing ALL the PATCO air traffic controllers who walked the picket lines. You would have thought it would have brought the nation to its knees but didn't.

Aloha

There is a reason PATCO failed, even though the negotiations had lasted over 2 years IIRC, they insisted their contract was still valid, tthis contract contained language baring picketing, therefore no other union could honor their picket lines. If they had just given proper notice that the contract was null void other unions could have respected the lines and then the President could not have used the provision he did. Unfortunately PATCO leadership was arrogant and harmed their members and the public.

 

[had8ley]

It would be interesting to know what the stand-still issues are. I believe that the jobs should be categorized high-tip, low/no tip, and operations. That way a sleeper attendant could work in the diner and vice versa (if so trained) because they rake in a similar amount of money. LSAs are rarely tipped and should stay where they are unless re-statused to the tipping world. Hopefully their base pay is a bit higher, even though the cash makes the difference for the other two jobs. Their job can interchange with snack car. Finally, conductors and engineers could swap if they were cross trained, otherwise they stay put where they serve.

Conductor and engineer strike me as rather different jobs. The conductor needs to be able to interact with the public in situations that are occasionally quite challenging on occasions where there are difficult passengers, and there are probably capable engineers who don't want to have those responsibilities. And I get the impression that the engineer probably needs to have a lot of technical knowlege about how the locomotive works that a conductor doesn't need; would Amtrak benefit from disqualifying someone who can deal well with difficult passengers from being a conductor just because they didn't have the right aptitude for understanding the machinery?

Although I cannot answer for Amtrak I do know that most freight railroads have agreements that force conductors to take promotion to engineer after having served a certain amount of time on the ground. So, I guess it's best to have the knowledge of what's happening behind you before you start pulling.

P.S. I sure hope the people responsible for NOT updating the "Weekly" Hot Deals (the "Hot Deals" are so old they have mildew on them) and the dining car menus (still old SDS) on the Amtrak site forget to pick up their back time checks, if and when they arrive. They sure haven't been helping us out who are trying to add revenue to their bottom line. That's my two cents and I'm standing on it !#$%^&

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

But shutting down NJ Transit, large portions of SEPTA, MARC, VRE, and maybe even the LIRR would result in disruptions over an above the impact that Amtrak as an individual private entity should have.

Do Amtrak crews operate these trains, or are these merely systems that operate over Amtrak's tracks?

(I believe Amtrak crews run part of Shore Line East, or at least did in 2002 according to the trip report AlanB recently posted a link to elsewhere in which someone attempted to ride commuter trains over all the tracks shared between Amtrak and commuter railroads; and the MBTA trains to Providence operate over Amtrak's tracks in Rhode Island, and those might also be affected.)

If states have contracted with Amtrak to provide crews for their trains and they don't like some aspect of Amtrak (such as its labor relations) they're free to choose another contractor (as Massachusetts has), although this is not a process that happens overnight. The MBTA recently renewed the MBCR contract, in spite of dissatisfaction with MBCR's performance; there are claims that it takes at least two years to find a replacement company if they decide they want to do that. (Why that is, I don't quite understand, and I somehow have to suspect that if someone really wanted to shorten that interval considerably, and could get the state legislature to approve such a thing, I bet it could be done.)

As for track ownership, maybe there's an argument that some portition of Amtrak's taxpayer subsidy could be given to Amtrak not as a handout, but as the purchase price of the track Amtrak owns, and perhaps that track could be given to the states. That would probably also do some good for the MBTA's expansion to T F Green Airport Station in Rhode Island, where I seem to recall that Amtrak wanted to charge substantially more than the industry standard rate (I'm not sure how that negotiation is going, but I don't think that station is going to be finished until 2009 or something anyway). But that might cause a different set of problems; few commuter rail systems go long enough distances between stations to want to get up to 150mph, and there are two segments of track in the NEC not used by any commuter railroad, so there might be some risk of states not maintaining tracks to the standards Amtrak wants. Then again, there's some Massachusetts-owned track that does allow 150mph.

Depending on which of the unions choose to strike, it seems like it's possible that trains with Amtrak crews might stop, but trains with other crews passing over Amtrak's tracks might be able to continue to operate.

 

[AlanB]

NJT does not use Amtrak operating crews, although MARC & VRE do, as well as Shore Line East. All four of them, as well as the LIRR, SEPTA, and the MBTA operate over at least some portion of Amtrak owned tracks. In addition, while the MBTA does own most of the corridor tracks within the State of Mass, Amtrak provides both the dispatching of the corridor and the maintenance of the corridor, which explains the 150 MPH track.

And then of course there are the METRA trains that use Amtrak's Chicago Union Station, and I believe that some California commuter RR is also operated by Amtrak.

While certain politicians from time to time may make some noise about wanting their state to own their portion of the NEC, none of the States along the NEC can really afford to take over the NEC without Federal dollars to help them. And that's without maintaing the corridor for Amtrak speeds, they can't afford the bill for commuter speeds. Delaware is already on record that they don't want to own their section and that they consider the entire idea of turning over the corridor to the states a folly.

 

[WhoozOn1st]

I'm a little surprised that nobody has mentioned invocation of the Taft-Hartley act to stop a strike. Would it not be applicable in this situation? Please pardon my ignorance.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

I'm a little surprised that nobody has mentioned invocation of the Taft-Hartley act to stop a strike. Would it not be applicable in this situation? Please pardon my ignorance.

The RLA far exceeds restrictions by Taft-Hartley act , and since they already fullfilled all requirements of RLA they are 100% legal to strike

 

[PRR 60]

I don't think that all the posters remember Ronald Reagan firing ALL the PATCO air traffic controllers who walked the picket lines. You would have thought it would have brought the nation to its knees but didn't.

Aloha

There is a reason PATCO failed, even though the negotiations had lasted over 2 years IIRC, they insisted their contract was still valid, tthis contract contained language baring picketing, therefore no other union could honor their picket lines. If they had just given proper notice that the contract was null void other unions could have respected the lines and then the President could not have used the provision he did. Unfortunately PATCO leadership was arrogant and harmed their members and the public.

PATCO members were employees of the federal government. As such, they were bared by law from striking. The strike by PATCO was illegal and that was the basis for President Reagan firing the strikers. They were violating federal law, not some technicality of labor contract protocol.

 

[VentureForth]

Problem is that if they don't watch it, they'll go the way of Eastern Airlines and won't need to be fired by the Prez because they'll all lose their jobs. I had a friend at American who, after 9/11 was wondering whether to strike or take concessions that would later be retroactively reimbursed. I told him that there were millions of people looking for a good $20/hr job and that to take a temporary pay cut to that would help ensure that he could keep that job rather than if they struck, the possibility of losing it all. They voted to hang in there and now he's making more than he ever has there.

So to Amtrak, live with the pay you've already got. Don't try to get some sort of windfall of back pay cash. You've made it here, you can get your simplified pay raise starting now, and continue on the job that you chose. Or fight and possibly lose it all.

Think we can't lose a national passenger rail system? I'm sure Mexicans thought that in 1991...

 

[Everydaymatters]

Hi all.
I've had a round trip on a Southwest Chief roomette scheduled for mid-February for some months now. It's tied in to a specific event I'm attending, so I can't change the date, and am getting very concerned that there may not be a train for me to take come Feb. 12 due to strike action.

If a strike does happen, does anyone have any idea what Amtrak would do to compensate advance ticket holders? Would we get a full refund? Would we perhaps instead have substitute transportation booked and paid for for us? (In my case it'd have to be bus as I don't fly.)

Also, what odds would people here put on there being a strike?

Back a few years, I believe it was in the early 90's, I had a reservation from Chicago to Denver for myself and my granddaughter. I was going to my neice's wedding. The day I was supposed to leave was the first day of a 2 day Amtrak strike. Amtrak didn't do anything for me. The day I was supposed to leave, I went to the travel agency, which had made the reservation, and they gave me a check. I went to the bank and cashed it and my dear daughter drove us to the wedding. We made it to Crested Butte on time, but it was really hectic.

I'm relatively certain Amtrak would give you a refund, but they sure won't do anything else for you. You're on your own.

Betty