Sudden Cancellation of Empire Builder from July 12th to ~July 16th? *Update* Maybe have been a whoopsie due to planned track maintenance!

[nuger93]

So i have an upcoming trip to Minnesota via the Empire builder out of Seattle coming up (leave Seattle on the 7th, have a Roomette in car 31). It was supposed to be a round trip, but i logged into the app yesterday to find out the return leg on the 12th from MSP to SEA was cancelled with nothing more than a "Service Has Been Cancelled' on the e-ticket agenda.

I got through to an Amtrak phone CSR agent, who tried getting me on a train within 2 days before or after that date and even the Amtrak side wasnt showing a non cancelled train from MSP to Seattle until the late 16th run. Amtrak refunded me for the return leg (we are currently trying to alternate transportation out of MSP now)
Amtrak social media isnt 100% whats happening but has said they'll pass it on if they find out (i mentioned that i have a NARP membership and had been writing my representive and senators about the infrastructure bill's Amtrak provisions)


What even more strange is that you can still book the run on the 12th, but the ticket will automatically show as cancelled service. when it gets to the upcoming trips page.

I'm asumming, from an experience in 2020 (prior to Amtrak going 3 times a week), that part of the issue stems from the Northbound Coast Starlight interuption, as when i took the NB coast starlight to Tacoma, the conductors told us they were the next days Eastbound Empire Builder crew. So im guessing there may be an issue with crew relief due to the loss of the NB Coast Starlight past Sacramento (as the crews dont get to switch out or rest as much now).

Other than that, barring either an issue with BNSF or with the tracks what else would cuase such a sudden canceling of so many routes so close to departure for an LD train?

 

[Exvalley]

That's awfully short notice to have to make alternative travel arrangements. There are going to be a lot of upset people who were scheduled on those trains.

 

[jis]

Well, Amtrak following in the footsteps of the airlines again I suppose. This sort of thing is happening a lot on several air routes of late too. Crew issues they say usually, and sometimes it is a combination of equipment and crew issues.

 

[nuger93]

That's awfully short notice to have to make alternative travel arrangements. There are going to be a lot of upset people who were scheduled on those trains.

I was intially, I'll admit to that. But I also remember that the person on the other end i was talking to didnt cancel it. And yelling at them wouldnt solve anything.
I used it to write to my reps that maybe if we built out the system, we could get more 'backup' consists too. (it probably wont do any good, but at least it made me calm down and be professional)

Well, Amtrak following in the footsteps of the airlines again I suppose. This sort of thing is happening a lot on several air routes of late too. Crew issues they say usually, and sometimes it is a combination of equipment and crew issues.

My thoughts exactly! Flights out of MSP are more expensive than getting a room from MSP to SEA on the train that week. Part of why we bought the travel insurance.
Im wondering if they are doing the internal refurb of the Empire Builder that week, which would render the route deplted of consists, especially since it cant balance any consists with the NB Coast Starlight now. I know when i took the NB Coast Starlight to Tacoma in 2020, that crew told us they were the next days Eastbound Empire Builder crew. So maybe that CS interuption has created either shortage or a weird furlough or something too?

 

[jis]

Im wondering if they are doing the internal refurb of the Empire Builder that week, which would render the route deplted of consists, especially since it cant balance any consists with the NB Coast Starlight now. I know when i took the NB Coast Starlight to Tacoma in 2020, that crew told us they were the next days Eastbound Empire Builder crew. So maybe that CS interuption has created either shortage or a weird furlough or something too?

That is not how the refurbs are supposed to be done. At least that is not how it was done with the eastern single level fleet. They did not involve any cancellation of service anywhere. The refurbs were done on car at a time when convenient, not an entire consist at a time by taking it out of service.

Coast Starlight does not share consist with the Empire Builder, they have inconsistent consists.

Something else is going on. Maybe we will know about it eventually, maybe not.

 

[zephyr17]

I find it difficult to believe that the annulment of the Starlight is causing T&E crew issues for the Builder. If anything, it should reduce crew issues if they are short staffed, assuming crews are qualified on both routes.

Starlight T&E crews run Seattle to Portland and back. Seattle Builder engineers run from Seattle to Wenatchee and back, conductors Seattle to Spokane and back. Portland Builder conductors run Portland-Spokane and back and engineers Portland-Pasco and back. The Portland based T&E crews also handle the Cascades and Starlight south of Portland to Eugene and K Falls.

While it may mean rotations have to change, the overall absence of a train means less crew demand, not more.

Starlight OBS crews are based in LA, so elimination of the Starlight really should have no effect on the Builder from an OBS perspective.

 

[zephyr17]

Coast Starlight does not share consist with the Empire Builder, they have inconsistent consists.

And the Starlight consist is made up and based in LA. The cars can be swapped between them at Seattle on an emergency basis, both are turned in Seattle, although the Starlight overnight and the Builder during the day.

 

[nuger93]

I find it difficult to believe that the annulment of the Starlight is causing T&E crew issues for the Builder. If anything, it should reduce crew issues if they are short staffed, assuming crews are qualified on both routes.

Starlight T&E crews run Seattle to Portland and back. Seattle Builder engineers run from Seattle to Wenatchee and back, conductors Seattle. Portland Builder conductors run Portland-Spokane and back and engineers Portland-Pasco and back. The Portland based T&E crews also handle the Cascades and Starlight south of Portland to Eugene and K Falls.

While it may mean rotations have to change, the overall absence of a train means less crew demand, not more.

Starlight OBS crews are based in LA, so OBS really should have no effect on the Builder.

They are still running the Cascades crews (i think i saw something where they were running more Cascades/bus links where possible to the Eugene area to account for the lost NB Coast Starlight). I'll admit im taking stabs here.
But something weird definitely happened. i dont think they would have planned to take out a whole route, but something obviously happened for them to cancel a whole route.

 

[jebr]

Did they offer the 27 to Portland, or is that sold out/cancelled as well? Seems like they should be able to do 27 to the Cascades service.

As for flights, it looks like there's a one-way on the 12th from MSP to SEA on Delta for $397 total for two people. The other days show some ~$200 per person options on Sun Country - not the greatest airline (they've succumbed to the allure of the ultra-low-cost and add fees model) but could be an option in a pinch.

 

[zephyr17]

They are still running the Cascades crews (i think i saw something where they were running more Cascades/bus links where possible to the Eugene area to account for the lost NB Coast Starlight). I'll admit im taking stabs here.
But something weird definitely happened. i dont think they would have planned to take out a whole route, but something obviously happened for them to cancel a whole route.

My money is on something with BNSF. Crew doesn't make sense to me.

They resumed two more Cascades services on May 24th, a Seattle-Portland-Eugene and a Seattle-Portland to the single Seattle-Portland-Eugene run they had been running. Crew rotation allowing that should be working fine by now.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Did they offer the 27 to Portland, or is that sold out/cancelled as well? Seems like they should be able to do 27 to the Cascades service.

As for flights, it looks like there's a one-way on the 12th from MSP to SEA on Delta for $397 total for two people. The other days show some ~$200 per person options on Sun Country - not the greatest airline (they've succumbed to the allure of the ultra-low-cost and add fees model) but could be an option in a pinch.

I just tried Spokane to Chicago on the app for July 14 and it said no trains running
Oops, I selected Spokane airport, not SPK. SPK to CHI shows trains available on July 14th

 

[nuger93]

Did they offer the 27 to Portland, or is that sold out/cancelled as well? Seems like they should be able to do 27 to the Cascades service.

As for flights, it looks like there's a one-way on the 12th from MSP to SEA on Delta for $397 total for two people. The other days show some ~$200 per person options on Sun Country - not the greatest airline (they've succumbed to the allure of the ultra-low-cost and add fees model) but could be an option in a pinch.

Ya we are trying to figure out which day works best. We also have a pet sitter at home until the 14th/15th and changing that now could result in all sorts of additional fees too.
We have the money to get flights out, we just have to pick which one (and we are going to see if the trip insuance will reimburse the designated amount towards them).

Originally the 27 (thats the one splitting in spokane right?) show just sold out, but now it shows booking (like the 7 which i was booked on but is actually cancelled), which im assuming means people are starting to get the service cancelled message on 27 too.
Basically anything that was leaving MSP on the 12th at ~10:20 ends up showing cancelled (the CSR was trying everyting, even trying to get us out on the 11th to portland and then a cascades train the 12th He could get the cascades part to show fine but his end was throwing errors for the MSP to PDX part too). Honestly ive been to Portland before so getting stuck there would be as bad as MSP which ive never been to before.

 

[jebr]

Ya we are trying to figure out which day works best. We also have a pet sitter at home until the 14th/15th and changing that now could result in all sorts of additional fees too.
We have the money to get flights out, we just have to pick which one (and we are going to see if the trip insuance will reimburse the designated amount towards them).

Originally the 27 (thats the one splitting in spokane right?) show just sold out, but now it shows booking (like the 7 which i was booked on but is actually cancelled), which im assuming means people are starting to get the service cancelled message on 27 too.
Basically anything that was leaving MSP on the 12th at ~10:20 ends up showing cancelled (the CSR was trying everyting, even trying to get us out on the 11th to portland and then a cascades train the 12th He could get the cascades part to show fine but his end was throwing errors for the MSP to PDX part too). Honestly ive been to Portland before so getting stuck there would be as bad as MSP which ive never been to before.

Interesting - I was thinking maybe something with the Seattle to Spokane leg was causing it, but maybe there's track work elsewhere on the route without good alternate routes? That seems more likely to me than a crew issue, anyways, though anything is possible.

 

[nuger93]

Interesting - I was thinking maybe something with the Seattle to Spokane leg was causing it, but maybe there's track work elsewhere on the route without good alternate routes? That seems more likely to me than a crew issue, anyways, though anything is possible.

I took it as a great opportunity to write my congressional members to highlight how building out the western routes could prevent these kind of interuptions. really the CS and EB are two the big LDs that suffer the most from track work/emergencies due to the inability to reroute onto alternate routes.

Can you make sense of this? some of it makes sense to me, others not so much. Looks they still had multiple weeks of work between minot and glasgow left.
https://www.bnsf.com/news-media/cus...ification.page?notId=weekly-track-maintenance

 

[niemi24s]

. . .logged into the app yesterday to find out the return leg on the 12th from MSP to SEA was cancelled with nothing more than a "Service Has Been Cancelled' on the e-ticket agenda.

MSP to SEA on the 12th looks bookable now.

 

[zephyr17]

I just tried Spokane to Chicago on the app for July 14 and it said no trains running

Okay, things are really out of joint. I did Everett-Chicago on the app on all the days and got normal train availability. I also did a Spokane-Chicago on July 14 and got normal availability.

 

[jebr]

Can you make sense of this? some of it makes sense to me, others not so much. Looks they still had multiple weeks of work between minot and glasgow left.
https://www.bnsf.com/news-media/cus...ification.page?notId=weekly-track-maintenance

I took a peek and none of the BNSF trackage used by the Builder is listed. Something's up - if I have time tomorrow maybe I'll stop by the ticket counter at MSP and see if the station staff there have heard anything.

I just tried Spokane to Chicago on the app for July 14 and it said no trains running

Weird - I tried it now and it'll sell me a ticket on both 8 and 28. I didn't complete it (I don't need a ticket) but it'll sell me it if I want to buy it.

 

[nuger93]

MSP to SEA on the 12th looks bookable now.

Never stopped being bookable. I was able to 'rebook' after getting the service cancelled message, only to have the new booking from MSP to SEA give me the same message on my ticket screen.
Then you check the itinerary and it says MSP to SEA is cancelled. I even told Amtrak that cancelled trains (and tickets that show as cancelled post booking) shouldnt be bookable, as its going to alienate the exact people they need to get revenue up.

Its was quite the bummer. thankfully my return was only in coach and not a roomette.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Wonder if this is another computer glitch like the 530/630 issue on the CZ

 

[nuger93]

I took a peek and none of the BNSF trackage used by the Builder is listed. Something's up - if I have time tomorrow maybe I'll stop by the ticket counter at MSP and see if the station staff there have heard anything.



Weird - I tried it now and it'll sell me a ticket on both 8 and 28. I didn't complete it (I don't need a ticket) but it'll sell me it if I want to buy it.

MSP to Seattle on the 12th was doing that but then says service has been cancelled post booking. I'd had my reservation on the 7 since March, so it wasnt like I was a last minute squeeze on (train was less than 25% when we booked). Train shows 70% booked now. i just feel for the people should it actually be cancelled, given that Amtrak didnt actually notify me that it was cancelled. I stumbled upon it when I logged it to double check the departure time for our family.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Okay, things are really out of joint. I did Everett-Chicago on the app on all the days and got normal train availability. I also did a Spokane-Chicago on July 14 and got normal availability.

I edited my post - I didn't know there was a Spokane Airport station (at least on the app) and had mistakenly selected that instead of SPK.

 

[nuger93]

Wonder if this is another computer glitch like the 530/630 issue on the CZ

Did they do it both directions there? On redditt people are reporting cancellations all the way to the 16th on both the East and westbound empires. Part of me wanted to ride it out to see if it was a glitch, but i also knew i needed that money to secure a flight out of MSP if its not a glitch.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Did they do it both directions there? On redditt people are reporting cancellations all the way to the 16th on both the East and westbound empires. Part of me wanted to ride it out to see if it was a glitch, but i also knew i needed that money to secure a flight out of MSP if its not a glitch.

Yes, the computer had booked people onto a sleeper that was not going to be in the consist, in both directions.

 

[jebr]

One other note: if you booked it with a credit card, check with your credit card issuer to see if they offer trip delay or trip cancellation insurance. Some cards do, and that might help pay for some or all of the flight since the train was cancelled if your travel insurance doesn't cover it.

 

[nuger93]

Okay, things are really out of joint. I did Everett-Chicago on the app on all the days and got normal train availability. I also did a Spokane-Chicago on July 14 and got normal availability.

Interesting. Heres what people booked on July 14th are getting:


I got a 'Service has been cancelled' message for the 12th, checked and the site still showed booking, but if you modified it with the exchange voucher for the canceled trip the site automatically generated, then the new booking gives the same 'service has been cancelled' message