Sunset East of New Orleans: Kiss of Death?

[Bill Haithcoat]

Oh, what the heck! let me throw this info in, irrelevant and out of date as it is! (It won't be the first time!)

George Harris and I and maybe others have mentioned the Gulf Wind, and various other trains that once ran through this region.

But would any of you (other than George Harris and one or two more) realize that at one time L&N ran a commuter train of sorts? It did not have a name, just numbers 11 and 12.

It originated at variable small towns north of Mobile,Ala. I believe for most of its life it originated at Ocean Springs, MS. On in to New Orleans.

It had a morning arrival into NOL about 8:30 or so and went back that night around 5. In each case its schedule was similar to the Gulf Wind. Its run from Ocean Springs or wherever it originated lasted about four hours, I think.

It had long distance coaches, though probably of the poorest quality. They would have been air conditioned, (after the late 40's) but may have not had recliining seats. (But not razor back either). There was no diner or lounge or head end or checked baggge. I never saw the train , but have seen one or two pictures throught the years. Very little ever said about it. It was not exactly the 20th Century Limited!!

I have read that it had many regular passengers, they mostly knew wach other, etc. , maybe even had birthday parties for each other.

It probably ran much more on time than the longer distance trains. For example, the Gulf Wind, combined with the Piedmont Limited and the Pan American, was quite likely late more often the local.

It ran six days a week Monday thorugh Saturday.

I cannot recall much of anything else quite like that in the Southeast. It lasted until the mid-60's, I guess, not sure. .

Bill - The oldest L&N table I have is Summer - 1961. I don't find 11 or 12 in that table. Maybe because it wasn't a LD train.

I happen to have a December 30, 1960 timetable with me and it is in that. So, you may have the first timetable in which it had been discontinued. It was technically, I guess, a "long distance" train though it did function as a commuter train.The L&N cannot be said to have had an official "commuter" operation--just one train would not make it qualify, somehow, so it is "long-distance" by default. By the way, it is not llisted in the "equipment and condensed schedules" portion of the timetable. It is only in the longer tables which show every single stop of every size.No equipment listing is given, which always meant a train just had coaches, nothing else. page 9 in my Dec 19680 timetable.

I was wrong about some things-- it did not originate at a point of north of Mobile, instead, it came from south of there. This timetable in front of me shows it originating in Pass Christian at 6:48 a.m. arriving NOL 8:40 a.m. Northbound, it left NOL at 5:15 p.m. terminating in Pass Christain at 7.50.

Though I was wrong about its northpoint destination being above Mobile, I still think the destination changed through the years. I suspect it originally came from Ocean Springs which is just above Biloxi, not just above Mobile as I originally thought. Also this 12/60 timetables says it ran Monday-Friday only---I think a few years before this it did run on Saturday as well, but don't think it ever ran on Sunday.

 

[MrFSS]

I happen to have a December 30, 1960 timetable with me and it is in that. So, you may have the first timetable in which it had been discontinued. It was technically, I guess, a "long distance" train though it did function as a commuter train.The L&N cannot be said to have had an official "commuter" operation--just one train would not make it qualify, somehow, so it is "long-distance" by default. By the way, it is not llisted in the "equipment and condensed schedules" portion of the timetable. It is only in the longer tables which show every single stop of every size.No equipment listing is given, which always meant a train just had coaches, nothing else. page 9 in my Dec 19680 timetable.
I was wrong about some things-- it did not originate at a point of north of Mobile, instead, it came from south of there. This timetable in front of me shows it originating in Pass Christian at 6:48 a.m. arriving NOL 8:40 a.m. Northbound, it left NOL at 5:15 p.m. terminating in Pass Christain at 7.50.

Though I was wrong about its northpoint destination being above Mobile, I still think the destination changed through the years. I suspect it originally came from Ocean Springs which is just above Biloxi, not just above Mobile as I originally thought. Also this 12/60 timetables says it ran Monday-Friday only---I think a few years before this it did run on Saturday as well, but don't think it ever ran on Sunday.

Well - I went back and looked at mine again. It is there. Trains 9 and 12, but only 5 days a week, M-F.
Here is the table and the map showing the route.

 

[frj1983]

Thanks for sharing that MrFSS,

I happen to think those old timetables are cool! I have a big book of selected timetables that is fun to look at and gives one quite an education on what was lost over the years!

 

[MrFSS]

Thanks for sharing that MrFSS,
I happen to think those old timetables are cool! I have a big book of selected timetables that is fun to look at and gives one quite an education on what was lost over the years!

I know - I grew up in those days.
I think you can get them on CD now, too.

 

[had8ley]

Oh, what the heck! let me throw this info in, irrelevant and out of date as it is! (It won't be the first time!)

George Harris and I and maybe others have mentioned the Gulf Wind, and various other trains that once ran through this region.

But would any of you (other than George Harris and one or two more) realize that at one time L&N ran a commuter train of sorts? It did not have a name, just numbers 11 and 12.

It originated at variable small towns north of Mobile,Ala. I believe for most of its life it originated at Ocean Springs, MS. On in to New Orleans.

It had a morning arrival into NOL about 8:30 or so and went back that night around 5. In each case its schedule was similar to the Gulf Wind. Its run from Ocean Springs or wherever it originated lasted about four hours, I think.

It had long distance coaches, though probably of the poorest quality. They would have been air conditioned, (after the late 40's) but may have not had recliining seats. (But not razor back either). There was no diner or lounge or head end or checked baggge. I never saw the train , but have seen one or two pictures throught the years. Very little ever said about it. It was not exactly the 20th Century Limited!!

I have read that it had many regular passengers, they mostly knew wach other, etc. , maybe even had birthday parties for each other.

It probably ran much more on time than the longer distance trains. For example, the Gulf Wind, combined with the Piedmont Limited and the Pan American, was quite likely late more often the local.

It ran six days a week Monday thorugh Saturday.

I cannot recall much of anything else quite like that in the Southeast. It lasted until the mid-60's, I guess, not sure. .

Bill - The oldest L&N table I have is Summer - 1961. I don't find 11 or 12 in that table. Maybe because it wasn't a LD train.

Try the Official Railway Guide from the 60's for the L&N~ it's there...

 

[Jackson McQuigg]

The nonprofit Florida affiliate of the National Association of Railroad Passengers, the Florida Coalition of Rail Passengers, is heading-up an effort to return Amtrak service from New Orleans-Orlando.

Our campaign is encouaging Amtrak passengers to contact Amtrak's new president, Alexander Kummant, their Member of Congress, and their U.S. Senator, asking them to see to it that service is restored.

For more information, you can visit the Florida Coalition of Rail Passengers' new website, www.fcrprail.org

Sincerely,

Jackson McQuigg

President

Florida Coalition of Rail Passengers

 

[frj1983]

The nonprofit Florida affiliate of the National Association of Railroad Passengers, the Florida Coalition of Rail Passengers, is heading-up an effort to return Amtrak service from New Orleans-Orlando.
Our campaign is encouaging Amtrak passengers to contact Amtrak's new president, Alexander Kummant, their Member of Congress, and their U.S. Senator, asking them to see to it that service is restored.

For more information, you can visit the Florida Coalition of Rail Passengers' new website, www.fcrprail.org

Sincerely,

Jackson McQuigg

President

Florida Coalition of Rail Passengers

If CEO Kummant gives an answer, it would be neat if you could post it here!

 

[john h]

Theres a new group hoping to restore service, see Advocacy group pushes for restoration of Amtrak’s New Orleans-to-Orlando service

 

[Green Maned Lion]

In fiscal-year 2007, Sunset Limited ridership was up 22.1 percent. Prior to Hurricane Katrina, the New Orleans-to-Orlando segment accounted for 28 percent of the route’s miles, but 39 percent of ridership and 41 percent of revenue.

:blink:

Wasn't I just talking about pointless and irrelevant statistics? It accounts for 28% of the routes length but 39% of ridership and 41% or revenue? I see the interest in the last two numbers. I fail to see why the percentage of route length is remotely relevant to anything. Maybe its related to how far I can ****? :lol:

 

[meatpuff]

In fiscal-year 2007, Sunset Limited ridership was up 22.1 percent. Prior to Hurricane Katrina, the New Orleans-to-Orlando segment accounted for 28 percent of the route’s miles, but 39 percent of ridership and 41 percent of revenue.

:blink:

Wasn't I just talking about pointless and irrelevant statistics? It accounts for 28% of the routes length but 39% of ridership and 41% or revenue? I see the interest in the last two numbers. I fail to see why the percentage of route length is remotely relevant to anything. Maybe its related to how far I can ****? :lol:

Well...high revenue over short miles equals more revenue per passenger-mile, which usually means small cost (loss) per passenger-mile. Which, for me, in a universe of imperfect statistics is the best metric to compare LD services that I can think of. 'Cause you're not going to do total loss, right? 'Cause you could just run the thing once a month, and it'd have about ten pax per run, but it'd still lose less money total than it would thrice-weekly. And since it's loss per passenger-mile it sort of accounts for different route lengths.

That's really interesting, actually. The Sunset can use all the help it can get. It by a good margin loses the most per passenger-mile according to Amtrak's monthly reports right now. If they ran the whole coast-to-coast route it would make the route look better based on that key metric...but of course it would cost Amtrak more operating funds overall, which presumably they don't have to spare! I guess they might need another trainset too...

There's been a lot of belly-aching on this board about how Amtrak hasn't been honest about this situation and everything (and I know this has been talked to death)...but to my mind, they must flat out lack either the equipment or the operating funds. They have a ready-made route there, and Amtrak wants nothing better than to expand its ridership, grow its empire and thus have a case to be more of a priority before Congress. Adding that route segment back on would be like turning a key, management-wise. So I suspect it's that they can't, not that they just secretly decided they don't want to, operate the entire Sunset.

Thanks for the interesting and timely link, john h.

-meatpuff

 

[AlanB]

There's been a lot of belly-aching on this board about how Amtrak hasn't been honest about this situation and everything (and I know this has been talked to death)...but to my mind, they must flat out lack either the equipment or the operating funds. They have a ready-made route there, and Amtrak wants nothing better than to expand its ridership, grow its empire and thus have a case to be more of a priority before Congress. Adding that route segment back on would be like turning a key, management-wise. So I suspect it's that they can't, not that they just secretly decided they don't want to, operate the entire Sunset.

Overall you would be correct that it would make fiscal sense to restore the route to its full length. And it's not lack of equipment or problems with the route and/or stations along the way that is stopping full restoration.

Hence the reason that many believe that the only reason for not restoring service is because Amtrak wants to hold the States along that portion of the route hostage. If they can get those states to pony up money, like Illinois or California have done, then not only does Amtrak regain potential thru traffic with the rest of the Sunset, it incurs absolutely no losses east of NOL, since the State's will have to make up the slack under any agreement made with Amtrak.

 

[john h]

There's been a lot of belly-aching on this board about how Amtrak hasn't been honest about this situation and everything (and I know this has been talked to death)...but to my mind, they must flat out lack either the equipment or the operating funds. They have a ready-made route there, and Amtrak wants nothing better than to expand its ridership, grow its empire and thus have a case to be more of a priority before Congress. Adding that route segment back on would be like turning a key, management-wise. So I suspect it's that they can't, not that they just secretly decided they don't want to, operate the entire Sunset.

Overall you would be correct that it would make fiscal sense to restore the route to its full length. And it's not lack of equipment or problems with the route and/or stations along the way that is stopping full restoration.

Hence the reason that many believe that the only reason for not restoring service is because Amtrak wants to hold the States along that portion of the route hostage. If they can get those states to pony up money, like Illinois or California have done, then not only does Amtrak regain potential thru traffic with the rest of the Sunset, it incurs absolutely no losses east of NOL, since the State's will have to make up the slack under any agreement made with Amtrak.

I also belive there would be more people in Texas taking the train to Florida, I for one would

 

[yoohoo]

I have known about this national disgrace for a while and sent emails to my state governor and senators to help support this route - though nothing ever became of it. Its a shame - this route was really the only way to travel west by land. And think of all the towns that no longer have a train station.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

I think Amtrak wants and plans to restore service, but I think they were unsatisfied with the unreliable performance of the Sunset. I believe they are working on deciding what form service should return in. Considering the fact the Sunset advertising no longer lists Orlando as a terminus, it appears that a full route Sunset is no longer being considered. I also believe that they are having trouble deciding if it should return as a non-sleeper service day train or as a sleeper service night train. A failed return attempt could be much more disastrous than taking 5 or maybe even 10 years for the return, it will be hard to convince congress for another chance if the return is unsuccessful. This is mostly likely complicated by changing Amtrak presidents during this process. I believe in time service will return but it may be very different, to me if this absence gives them time to come up with better service than the Sunset offered, it will be worth it. Once they do make a decision it could take a while to resume service because by now the employees have been redistributed through the system or have quit, been laid off or fired, so an entirely new staff will be required. I can't blame them for wanting to shorten this route, especially with UP being able to affect on-time performance all the way from LAX to Orlando. I hope something happens soon, but we may get a better result by waiting.

 

[wayman]

with UP being able to affect on-time performance all the way from LAX to Orlando.

UP owns tracks east of NOL? Or do you just mean that an eastbound train, already horribly delayed by UP by the time it gets to NOL, would never make up that time east of NOL?

 

[had8ley]

with UP being able to affect on-time performance all the way from LAX to Orlando.

UP owns tracks east of NOL? Or do you just mean that an eastbound train, already horribly delayed by UP by the time it gets to NOL, would never make up that time east of NOL?

UP technically ends at West Bridge tower on the west bank of the Mississippi River in Avondale, LA BUT the BNSF owns the tracks from Iowa Jct, (east of Lake Charles) to West Bridge.The Public Belt owns the tracks to UPT (or at least most of the way) and the CSX owns from NOL to Orlando (and Miami) when it runs/ran to Florida. (Tri-Rail comes in somewhere in South Florida.) All the hoopla is about when #2 leaves LAX and arrives at Iowa Jct and gets on the BNSF. The major pitfalls are West Colton, El Paso, San Antonio and Houston yards. Avondale can be a pain also if they run you through a yard track up to the bridge via the UP.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

I would of course like to see Sunset resume all the way to ORL. But if they would at least run a train from NOL to JAX, it would restore the southern transcontinental route. It would take some fiddling to set it up so that it could connect with Sunset, CONL, and Crescent at NOL and with Silver Service 91/92/97/98, at JAX, and would require cleaning and maintenance facilities at JAX (Auto-Train in Sanford, which is where Sunset used to be serviced between runs out of ORL, has an excellent facility. Even Silver Service trains occasionally make unscheduled stops there for mid-trip minor repairs).

 

[AlanB]

I think Amtrak wants and plans to restore service, but I think they were unsatisfied with the unreliable performance of the Sunset. I believe they are working on deciding what form service should return in. Considering the fact the Sunset advertising no longer lists Orlando as a terminus, it appears that a full route Sunset is no longer being considered. I also believe that they are having trouble deciding if it should return as a non-sleeper service day train or as a sleeper service night train. A failed return attempt could be much more disastrous than taking 5 or maybe even 10 years for the return, it will be hard to convince congress for another chance if the return is unsuccessful. This is mostly likely complicated by changing Amtrak presidents during this process. I believe in time service will return but it may be very different, to me if this absence gives them time to come up with better service than the Sunset offered, it will be worth it. Once they do make a decision it could take a while to resume service because by now the employees have been redistributed through the system or have quit, been laid off or fired, so an entirely new staff will be required. I can't blame them for wanting to shorten this route, especially with UP being able to affect on-time performance all the way from LAX to Orlando. I hope something happens soon, but we may get a better result by waiting.

I believe, sadly, as well as many others, that Amtrak wants to restore service east of NOL only if someone else helps to pay for the train.

There are no good reasons for Amtrak's failure to restore service at this point in time. Even if they want better service or a different service, they have an obligation to at least restore the service that was there pre-Katrina while they debate what and how to improve things. Either that, or they need to post the 180 day notices and run service during that time and face the fire storm that will grow out of that.

Instead they keep giving excuses that make no sense, while they try to hold the states in that area hostage and force them to help cover the losses incurred by running that service.

 

[had8ley]

I believe, sadly, as well as many others, that Amtrak wants to restore service east of NOL only if someone else helps to pay for the train.
There are no good reasons for Amtrak's failure to restore service at this point in time. Even if they want better service or a different service, they have an obligation to at least restore the service that was there pre-Katrina while they debate what and how to improve things. Either that, or they need to post the 180 day notices and run service during that time and face the fire storm that will grow out of that.

Instead they keep giving excuses that make no sense, while they try to hold the states in that area hostage and force them to help cover the losses incurred by running that service.

Quite true. One of the dumbest statements is that there is no station in Mobile while they're dumping people off in Beaumont on the right of way on the same train !!!

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

with UP being able to affect on-time performance all the way from LAX to Orlando.

UP owns tracks east of NOL? Or do you just mean that an eastbound train, already horribly delayed by UP by the time it gets to NOL, would never make up that time east of NOL?

Yes, if an entirely new train departed from NOL it wouldn't matter how late the train coming in off of UP would be thus helping ontime performance

 

[AlanB]

with UP being able to affect on-time performance all the way from LAX to Orlando.

UP owns tracks east of NOL? Or do you just mean that an eastbound train, already horribly delayed by UP by the time it gets to NOL, would never make up that time east of NOL?

Yes, if an entirely new train departed from NOL it wouldn't matter how late the train coming in off of UP would be thus helping ontime performance

Well it might help OTP, it might not. A lot would depend on just how many connecting passengers Amtrak had on the Sunset, and whether they would elect to hold the connecting train or spend the money to put those people up in a hotel to await the next day's train.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

You'd just have to fiddle with schedules so that the eastbound out of NOL reliably got into JAX in time to meet a Silver southbound. Westbound from JAX would need to be late enough to have Silver meet it reliably, and then CONL and Sunset might need to be fiddled a bit to guarantee arrival from JAX before their departures.

 

[AlanB]

You'd just have to fiddle with schedules so that the eastbound out of NOL reliably got into JAX in time to meet a Silver southbound. Westbound from JAX would need to be late enough to have Silver meet it reliably, and then CONL and Sunset might need to be fiddled a bit to guarantee arrival from JAX before their departures.

The Sunset can be fiddled with till the cows come home and it probably won't make a difference. But one can't fiddle with the CONL too much, or it breaks connections in Chicago.

And I don't know how one can fiddle with the schedule of an eastbound train out of NOL to deal with an 8 hour late Sunset.

 

[wayman]

And I don't know how one can fiddle with the schedule of an eastbound train out of NOL to deal with an 8 hour late Sunset.

Don't call the east-of-NOL train "Sunset" or anything remotely like it. Call it the Gulf Coast Special or the Ragin' Cajun or the Finally Some Love For Mobile. And simply don't guarantee a Sunset-to-this train connection in NOL in either direction. Then this train can leave whenever works best in the schedule (ideally, IMO, whenever it can best interact with Silver Service trains in Jacksonville). If you can coordinate it with the City in NOL, even better. But just don't bother with coordinating with the Sunset (at least eastbound; maybe westbound would work, I don't know).

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

I don't think they should hold a train for more than an hour anyway, if they hold a train then it will be late and the repercussions will be felt all across the system. i know amtrak saves the hotel expense by holding trains but why make another train late? It just gives Amtrak dissenters more to prove their points with. To me Amtrak is a whole lot nicer than any airline about missing connections. We flew from Birmingham to Miami and back a couple of years ago with a plane change in Orlando. The plane out of Birmingham had a mechanical problem and was grounded for 5 hours for repairs. All other equipment was needed to maintain other scheduled flights. Once the plane was repaired we began boarding, once we left the plane stand we had to sit on the tarmac until we got an opening to use the runway. This was in the middle of the summer travel rush so if a plane lost its slot it could be quite some time until a new one appeared. After 8 hours we were in the air and made it to Orlando about hrs and mins late. We had missed our connection and there were no available seats to Miami for over a week unless we just sat in the terminal and waited for a cancellation. We asked about a hotel and they said no hotel arrangements were made for missed flights that the policy was to wait for an opening for a later flight. We decided to get a refund and spend a the day in Orlando and take Amtrak to Miami and cut a day off the stay in Miami rather than spend an unknown amount of time in an airport terminal. No one should complain about Amtrak trains being late and using that for a reason to fly when Amtrak will guarantee connections and accommodations when necessary while an airline will point you to a chair in a waiting room and tell you to sleep there until they find you a seat with no definite time frame in mind. By the way the Amtrak train was ontime. If you want to know the airline involved their jets are painted very similar to Amtrak's trains when they were using the phase 3 paint scheme.