Sunset East of New Orleans: Kiss of Death?

[George Harris]

I don't have an old employee timetable for the MNO&P division, but I am reasonably sure that the speed limit Flomaton to Chattahoochie was 55 mph. This was the normal L&N passenger trian speed limit on non-signaled lines. In fact, before WW2, it was the maximum L&N speed limit on any line. With the push for speed with the South Wind, Dixie Flagler, Georgian, Humming Bird, the speed limit on the major mains was raised to 70 mph, and they actually at one time planned to go to 80 mph, but that seemed to have been dropped with the early 50's drop off in passenger loadings. I know for certain that in the 50's early 60's 55 mph was the limit on the Memphis line and the original N&D through Columbia TN. With the 55 mph passenger limit, the frieght limit was 40 mph. When the signaled mains went to 70 mph, the speed limit for freights became 45 mph, and later, by the early 60's 50 mph with all piggyback trains allowed 60 mph. The L&N was never a high speed railroad. Some of the passenger schedules were quite tight, and I doubt they could be consistenetly made without fudging on the speeds. For example, the Memphis section of the Pan averaged 42 mph between Bowling Green KY and Memphis with quite a few stops, on a line with a couple of 15 mph bridges, and a 55 mph maximum limit, and 20 mph within Memphis itself.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

If Amtrak reinstates service between New Orleans and Orlando, it should be daily service with a schedule that can be maintained on a timely basis. ... An overnight train from Jacksonville to New Orleans and vis versa is preferable and could attract some business travelers, if it was reliable. The train should be scheduled to connect with both the City of New Orleans and the Sunset.

Pardon the slightly abridged quote, but I am in FULL agreement with the concept. Lacking a fully operational Sunset through to Orlando, a daily NOL-JAX , JAX-NOL would be wonderful if it could arrive in Jax prior to the southboard Silvers (well, after the Meteor, anyway, since I think it still has a bus bridge from Orlando over to Tampa) and leave after the northbound Silvers, or at least after the Meteor, which, again I think has a bus bridge from Tampa. This would provide a daily connection to and from the east coast trains, both south and northbound. And the south transcon route would be viable again. And it would provide a daily path from the Silvers to and from Chicago if the schedules could be massaged a bit. As for Florida politicians, good luck, at least on the national level. Nelson is rabidly anti-Amtrak and so is Mica, l believe. I dunno about the others.

 

[AlanB]

Lest anyone think that Amtrak is actually saving money by not running the Sunset east of NOL, let me throw out a few figures that I compiled while I was working up the Empire Builder numbers that I quoted in another thread.

In Fiscal 2005 where Amtrak understandably had to cut service for the last month of the year, here are the loses due to that curtailment from the 2004 Fiscal numbers. A large part of the loss here was also due to the horrible UP time keeping that summer, when more than 1 train arrived more than 24 hours late.

Revenue down $1.7M YTD, September only down $398,525

Ridership down 15,078 YTD, September only down 2,384

In 2006 Fiscal, where Amtrak really only needed to cut the service for the first 5 months of the fiscal year, but instead kept it curtailed for the entire year, here are the losses by comparison to fiscal 2005.

Revenue down $4.1 Million

Ridership down 29,488

And just in case anyone was wondering, not running east of NOL hasn't decreased Amtrak's losses on that train either. The FRA Contrabution, which is what the FRA estimates the Federal Government is paying to run the service, increased by over $300,000 dollars in 2006. So not running the train east of NOL, isn't saving Amtrak any money!

 

[Guest_Had8ley_*]

Lest anyone think that Amtrak is actually saving money by not running the Sunset east of NOL, let me throw out a few figures that I compiled while I was working up the Empire Builder numbers that I quoted in another thread.
In Fiscal 2005 where Amtrak understandably had to cut service for the last month of the year, here are the loses due to that curtailment from the 2004 Fiscal numbers. A large part of the loss here was also due to the horrible UP time keeping that summer, when more than 1 train arrived more than 24 hours late.

Revenue down $1.7M YTD, September only down $398,525

Ridership down 15,078 YTD, September only down 2,384

In 2006 Fiscal, where Amtrak really only needed to cut the service for the first 5 months of the fiscal year, but instead kept it curtailed for the entire year, here are the losses by comparison to fiscal 2005.

Revenue down $4.1 Million

Ridership down 29,488

And just in case anyone was wondering, not running east of NOL hasn't decreased Amtrak's losses on that train either. The FRA Contrabution, which is what the FRA estimates the Federal Government is paying to run the service, increased by over $300,000 dollars in 2006. So not running the train east of NOL, isn't saving Amtrak any money!

Alan;

Just for the sake of those who don't know how managers run railroads these days here's a little insight into WHY I feel the Sunset still dies in NOL. The term that EVERY railroad manager has learned to use is, "Not on my budget you won't !#$%" In other words the added expenses have to show up on somebody's bottom line irregardless of the loss of revenue or number of passengers lost. They could run the train without a revenue passenger but if a re-crew happens the home office is burning the phone lines up wanting to know who they could hang with the added expense. Just ask any freight railroad manager that is working in the field~ my son is one of them.

 

[Palmland]

While Orlando or Miami would be nice, realistically the crew and equipment issues would make it more of a long shot to ever happen. Why not do what the Gulf Wind did - run just to Jacksonville.

By adusting the Silver Star schedule a little, it could connect with the Gulf Wind for south Florida. Since the CONO now lays over almost 24 hours in NO, I think this would mean only one additional set of equipment and crews.

 

[battalion51]

The reason why you don't stop at JAX is exactly what you said, equipment issues. Sanford is a Superliner base that has a large number of facilities and great craftsmen to work on Superliner equipment. If you want anyone handling that equipment its Sanford.

 

[Guest]

Has anyone else noticed that amtrak.com won't book you from LAX to NOL on the Sunset LTD? It takes you up on the Cheif and down on the City of New Orleans. You can however book into the station before NOL.

 

[Trogdor]

Has anyone else noticed that amtrak.com won't book you from LAX to NOL on the Sunset LTD? It takes you up on the Cheif and down on the City of New Orleans. You can however book into the station before NOL.

It works for me just fine. You have to make sure that your departure date is one of the three days per week that the Sunset Limited will be operating. Otherwise, it will default to the 4-59 connection.

 

[lepearso]

Has anyone read the January 2007 issue of Trains magazine? If not, look on page 31. It says that "Amtrak government affairs officials on Oct. 20" proposed a supplemental train to serve the New-Orleans-Orlando route on a four-day-per-week schedule opposite the Sunset Limited. This is the same idea behind the Hoosier State supplementing the Cardinal between Chicago and Indianapolis.

First of all, this is the first I have heard on this idea. Secondly, I really like to sound of it. Third, I wonder how serious they really are.

They may be on to something good, if only they'll pursue the idea and not just leave it on the table.

 

[rtabern]

Kinda off the topic of this thread, but I'm curious to know: How'd you ride the Empire Builder between Chicago and Milwaukee?

Well, you have to buy a ticket from Chicago to Columbus, WI... as you probably know... they won't let you buy a ticket on 7/27/807 from Chicago to Milwaukee. BUT if the Builder is not very full and coach prices are in their first 'bucket'... you can get a CHI-CBS coach ticket for around $21 (the same cost of the Hiawatha).

Of course, if the 'bucket' is high, it doesn't make much sense to do it because you could be paying double.

Anyhow, you board in Chicago... then get off in Milwaukee (it's a smoke-stop and you have 15 minutes there... so plenty of time to get off the train). I have done this several times now and every conductor and coach attendant I've talked to is completely fine with it, even thought again yes, you can't 'officially' do it.

Actually, on several trips, other passengers have done the same. (check for MKE placecards above the seats!)

The advantages? Well, I am a AGR Select Plus member so I get to use/board via the Metropolitan Lounge in Chicago... and avoid the long times you sometimes get with the Hiawatha at Gate B there. And if it's the same prices as the Hiawatha... why not enjoy the snack bar and lounge car... even if it's just for 1 1/2 hours? Right? I think the Superliners are much better than the single-level CHI-MKE coaches.

 

[AlanB]

The advantages? Well, I am a AGR Select Plus member so I get to use/board via the Metropolitan Lounge in Chicago... and avoid the long times you sometimes get with the Hiawatha at Gate B there. And if it's the same prices as the Hiawatha... why not enjoy the snack bar and lounge car... even if it's just for 1 1/2 hours? Right?

That assumes that you actually get a lounge attendant that knows the rules. I've read several reports from Select + members who were denied entry into the Metro Lounge in CHI, because the attendant wasn't properly trained. One person even had his Select + booklet with him and the attendant rudely refused to look at it and pointed out to him that his card says "Club Acela" on it and that this wasn't a Club Acela and therefore she was right in denying him entry.

 

[Guest_Ben_*]

I unfortunately don't subscribe to Trains magazine, but could someone summarize the Sunset article and the article about UP's Sunset Route getting better? It would be much appreciated, thanks.

 

[yarrow]

this is probably not relevant to the discussion but we sent for some free posters and route guides from the "great american stations" website(we homeschool our kids and use them for decorating). really quality posters and system map by the way. anyway we also got from them some wonderful folders of postcards(all for free)with miniatures of the posters they have on trains. these cards are a lot nicer than those sold on the trains. the sunset limited card in the set still says l.a. to orlando. maybe they are old cards but they are sent out as current marketing material.

 

[Sam Damon]

Perhaps this is the time to start writing letters to the editor about "the phantom train from New Orleans to Orlando." Wasn't it showing up in Amtrak's computer for a while?

When all else fails, turning the bureaucrats into laughing stocks is about the only option you've got. Being an object of ridicule is no fun at all.

 

[Donnie]

You are forgetting that Congress used taxpayer money in 2006 to purchase the CSX across Mississippi in order to scrap it and turn it into a highway. FEMA is presently running a ferry boat (or it was, until it broke down), at the price of $30 per car of (you guessed it) taxpayer money. The alternative rail route involves going from New Orleans to Meridian, MS, and would be quite convoluted and time-consuming. Most shippers in the know realize that there is no longer a viable route across the gulf coast, and they are moving their operations (if they can) to other states and or shifting their products to barge lines or trucks.

What nobody wants to admit is that, except for casinos, the Gulf Coast is not a high priority for rebuilding anyway. Those of us who live here can tell you that this is just one piece of a vast government boondoggle.

 

[AlanB]

You are forgetting that Congress used taxpayer money in 2006 to purchase the CSX across Mississippi in order to scrap it and turn it into a highway. FEMA is presently running a ferry boat (or it was, until it broke down), at the price of $30 per car of (you guessed it) taxpayer money. The alternative rail route involves going from New Orleans to Meridian, MS, and would be quite convoluted and time-consuming. Most shippers in the know realize that there is no longer a viable route across the gulf coast, and they are moving their operations (if they can) to other states and or shifting their products to barge lines or trucks.
What nobody wants to admit is that, except for casinos, the Gulf Coast is not a high priority for rebuilding anyway. Those of us who live here can tell you that this is just one piece of a vast government boondoggle.

Senator Lott wanted to do that, but I don't believe that the money actually got appropriated. AFAIK CSX still owns that line and with the Dems now in control of Congress, I'm pretty sure that Senator Lott's idea is dead.

 

[George Harris]

You are forgetting that Congress used taxpayer money in 2006 to purchase the CSX across Mississippi in order to scrap it and turn it into a highway. FEMA is presently running a ferry boat (or it was, until it broke down), at the price of $30 per car of (you guessed it) taxpayer money. The alternative rail route involves going from New Orleans to Meridian, MS, and would be quite convoluted and time-consuming. Most shippers in the know realize that there is no longer a viable route across the gulf coast, and they are moving their operations (if they can) to other states and or shifting their products to barge lines or trucks.
What nobody wants to admit is that, except for casinos, the Gulf Coast is not a high priority for rebuilding anyway. Those of us who live here can tell you that this is just one piece of a vast government boondoggle.

I don't know where this person got his "information" but almost all of it is wrong.

1. The government purchase of the right of way did not go through.

2. The ferry boat: Know nothing about this one. However even though US 90 is cut at Bay St. Louis and Biloxi, and maybe a few other places, I-10 is functional.

3. The purchase of the rail route along the gulf coast included construction a new line some 10 to 20 miles inland that connected back up to the existing track in the vicinity of the Louisiana and Alabama state lines.. Also, the existing alternate route dose not go to Meridian, but only as far a sHattiesburg, and then down the IC, ex GM&N main to Mobile. Yes, quie a bit of work would be necessary to get thins secondary line up to a good quality maine line standard.

4. The rail route along teh Gulf Coast IS viable, in fact is alive and well, and shippers "in the know" do know that. As has been said multiple times already, the line has been completely restored its pre hurricane condition or better.

5. Rebuilding not a priority? Argue that with the people who live there. It ain't the casinos, even though they do have political clout. The Gulf air would breathe better if all the casino barges were hauled out to sea about a hundred miles and sunk so far as I am concerned.

6. He says he lives there. Where?

George

 

[Donnie From Ocean Springs]

Hopefully you are correct about the deal not going thru, but that is news to us. The planning funds are in the budget that the last congress just passed. There was no money promised for the building of a new rail line, or for the upgrade of the existing Hattiesburg line, only money to take out the CSX.

Both the Mississippi Senators and the state legislature sold out to the casino interests, and promised the CSX right of way as an access route to the new on-land casinos, some of which are already under construction.

I agree with you, there is no need for gambling anywhere except perhaps Atlantic City and Vegas. It is a disaster, both to the personal lives of those who are addicted to it, and to the governments who reap the "windfall" of the tax money. But, its a fact of life, and as such,

 

[Donnie]

Oops, hit the button to quick.

Meant to say also that CSX has been quoted as saying they will not rebuild the New Orleans to Mobile line again. It is extremely vulnerable to weather, as you can see by looking at a map. It is extremely high maintenance.

In fact, with the erosion of the barrier islands, in many places the roadbed is actually the first line of defense against tidal surges. Those who lived "in front" of the railroad got flooded much worse than those who lived "behind" it. Of course part of that is just a function of being farther from the brunt of the storm, but the railroad absorbed some of the hit as well.

If and when the next storm hits, the line is going to be abandoned or split into short line segments anyway. If Mississippi wants to hang their hat on gambling, it's sad, but the high paying industry and manufacturing jobs are bound and determined to go offshore the way things are headed, so whadda'ya need a railroad for anyway. The container trucks just back up to the dock, and away to Wal-Mart down the interstate they go, full of all that Chinese-made stuff.

 

[George Harris]

Meant to say also that CSX has been quoted as saying they will not rebuild the New Orleans to Mobile line again. It is extremely vulnerable to weather, as you can see by looking at a map. It is extremely high maintenance.

Do you have a reference on this? I would love to know who said it when. It is also worth remembering that management can change their minds. Their main problem with abandoning this line is lack of good alternative routes. I have seen enough pictures of the rebuilt facilities to be unconvinced that they considered the work temporary or short term. A lot of the local casino and like interests probably do wish the railroad would go away, as you don't need a railroad to haul money. They will probably talk like it is a foregone conclusion. But then again, buy a house that is near a railroad and the realtor will probably tell you that the railroad is going away in a few years so you will believe that you will have less whistle noise to listen to as time goes on. The railroad might have other thoughts altogether.

As to high maintenance: Yes, somewhat. You do have about 5 drawbridges and a lot of road crossings, but otherwise the railroad is fairly straight and flat so fuel costs should be low to compensate for that, in part if not totally. Most of if not all of the bridges are now concrete and steel, so the long term problem they had with low capacity long timber trestles is gone. All alternative routes include significant lengths of running on somebody else's railroad. The NS main, the only likely alternate out of New Orleans, would need quite a bit of work to have the capacity to handle the CSX traffic without significant delay to everything, and a lot of delays is what they did have while the CSX coast line was out of service.

George

 

[Save Our Trains Michigan]

This is what we need to due to try to get the Sunset LTD back running east.

1st. Let's not blame Amtrak

2nd. We need to make this issue public by contacting our elected officials in the area that the Sunset ran before the storm.This will put a lot of pressure on the issue remember it only takes around 4 phone calls in 1 day to get an elected officials to act on the issue.

I will be working on a flier that will go out into the public sometime this week for restoring the Sunset LTD back east.

This issue won't be resolved overnight it might take months.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

1st. Let's not blame Amtrak

OK. Then who, exactly, was it that decided not to reinstitute service east of NOL? Not CSX. They got the line back rebuilt in good shape in short order. I can't think of any responsible party, other than Amtrak, upon whom blame for the footdragging and stonewalling can be placed.

The rest of your post I can agree with. And bless you for whatever you manage to accomplish. But Amtrak DESERVES the blame in this case. And the complaints, and the congressional heat, and the ire of the civic and governmental groups along the route, and the ire of all the would-be passengers that have had to make other arrangements because of Amtrak's intransigence. "For whatever a man sows, that shall he also reap."

 

[JAChooChoo]

Just a reality check, NOL to Florida was not deemed an essential route in 1971, and did not exist for the next two decades.

 

[George Harris]

As to the "reality check": The route of the Coast Starlight and Texas Eagle were not considered "essential" in 1971. but the Floridian, Texas Chief --> Lone Star, and National Limited were. Somehow by 1978 they lost their essentiality. The Gulf Wind was still running on A-day and the Panhandle residents wanted to keep a train, but did not have the political clout to do so. The point of "essential in 1971" is irrelevant to the discussion.

I think the point of "Let's not blame Amtrak" is to avoid creating an adversarial atmosphere as much as possible to do so, not as an expression of reality. At least that is the way I feel about it. I want to push my senators ablout this as being something that should be done, not to go on a search to find a goat to be taken out and sacrificed.

George

 

[VentureForth]

Here is a sample of a letter that I sent my Senator. Feel free to alter, adjust, modify and sign your own name to it and send it to everyone in Washington (PLEASE NOTE THAT I'M NOT COMPLETELY CONCERNED ABOUT PRECISE DETAILS REGARDING LEGAL ISSUES OR THINGS LIKE THAT. I LET THEM FIGURE THAT SORT OF STUFF OUT):

Dear Honorable Senator ,

I don't know if you serve on any transportation board or not, but I do have a concern with the current state of Amtrak.

Amtrak is a National Passenger Rail Service that brings the United States together, connecting 47 of the 48 contiguous states. Many small communities that have no airline or bus service rely on Amtrak for long distance travel. It is also a proven alternative for long distance travel that is more comfortable than a bus and suitable for most people who refuse to fly in commercial aircraft.

As you may or may not be aware, the Sunset Limited, which does stop in Deming and Lordsburg NM has had disrupted service East of New Orleans since Hurricane Katrina.

It's completely understandable that a natural disaster of such a magnitude could have a terrific impact on railroad service.

But the problem todays is that every excuse that Amtrak has given with regards to providing service to Orlando from New Orleans has been refuted or downright misrepresented.

For example, all of the track between New Orleans and Orlando has been restored since March of '06. Most stations are in a state of good repair, but even for those that may not be, keep in mind that there are several stops along Amtrak's routes that are nothing more than flat dirt.

The Sunset Limited is a critical link to the Gold Coast from the West and should be given the status of flagship service and should be a point of pride of US transcontinental rail service.

I propose that you or a colleague would support a resolution in congress to the effect that:

- Amtrak's Sunset Limited train restores service between New Orleans and Orlando immediately.

- Host railroad operators shall uphold the original intent of the NARP contract and provide Amtrak trains with minimal service disruption and priority sequencing.

Thank you for your time and I hope that you will help Congress find a way to bolster our flailing national railroad system.

Sincerely,