Talgos mothballed?

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In areas where required by freight traffic, platforms must be 8" ATR (Above the Top of the Rail). Where freight traffic does not interfere, platforms must be level with the lowest-profile passenger equipment operating on that line. In single-level-only territory, this means 48" ATR (high-level platforms). Elsewhere, this means 15" ATR (level with Superliner lower levels).

As far as Milwaukee, this looks to mean that the side platform directly attached to the station building will need to be 15" ATR, as that track is not generally used for freight traffic (at least according to WisDOT and FRA), and the two island platforms will need to be 8" ATR.
Indeed, and while the effective date was this year, the fact that these rules were coming was well known for a while. Heck this was all being argued back in 2009. What surprises me is that WisDOT had not planned and budgeted for this expenditure.

It is distressing to see passenger rail planners cutting corners on simple things like reasonable platform heights.

New stations built in NJ on trackage shared with regular freight operations have had 48" platform with gauntlet tracks built years back. The new Pennsauken station on the Atlantic City Line is building in additional crossovers to move freight away from the track that will have the 48" platform. These are just the cost of doing business and should be accounted for. OTOH, it is railfans, among others, who were responsible for many of the M&E stations not getting 48" platforms in the interest of maintaining the nice 19th century looks of the stations. Sigh.... Now the next time these stations are refurbished they will have to be upgraded to 48" platforms at great additional cost.

OTOH, NJT pulled an interesting stunt about the Tier III (AFAIR) diesel regulations which went into effect while the PL42s were being delivered. They made sure they avoided that requirement by assembling and starting each engine once before the deadline thus establishing that basic manufacturing had been completed before the deadline. It was months later that the final unit was actually delivered. Games that people play....
 
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The oh-so-obvious route for the Talgos, apart from the Cascades (to which they are well-suited) is the Vermonter, where all three conditions are met. But the high platforms of the NEC are not compatible with the tiny profile Talgo cars. The Adirondack is another, but you still have Penn Station, Croton Harmon, maybe others. So are the Carolinian, the Pennsylvanian, probably even the Lynchburger. But they all run up against those high NEC platforms. A train headed south from DC in the morning, back in the evening? That would make some sense (especially on the Crescent route), but I don't know if there is space for a "Talgo House" in DC, and you lose the "track damage" benefit.
The Piedmonts? Then possibly NC will add the long awaited connection to Asheville they promised years ago and add the Wilmington connection they "investigated".
 
In areas where required by freight traffic, platforms must be 8" ATR (Above the Top of the Rail). Where freight traffic does not interfere, platforms must be level with the lowest-profile passenger equipment operating on that line. In single-level-only territory, this means 48" ATR (high-level platforms). Elsewhere, this means 15" ATR (level with Superliner lower levels).

As far as Milwaukee, this looks to mean that the side platform directly attached to the station building will need to be 15" ATR, as that track is not generally used for freight traffic (at least according to WisDOT and FRA), and the two island platforms will need to be 8" ATR.
Indeed, and while the effective date was this year, the fact that these rules were coming was well known for a while. Heck this was all being argued back in 2009. What surprises me is that WisDOT had not planned and budgeted for this expenditure.

It is distressing to see passenger rail planners cutting corners on simple things like reasonable platform heights.
I was wondering the same thing, how WisDOT was caught surprised by this. At a recent WisARP meeting, it was mentioned that the MKE trainshed/platform renovation has been delayed because WisDOT has had to redesign things to accommodate the new platform rules. But, like you mentioned, I thought that the general idea of "level boarding where possible" (depending on freight traffice, different equipment types, etc) was known some time ago.
 
The Doyle administration contracted for the Talgo sets back in 2008-09 in anticipation of extending Hiawatha service to Madison, not to service only CHI-MILW. The route between Milwaukee and Madison had been identified and planned since the mid-1990s in the Tommy Thompson administration, with the EA/FONSI finalized in 2003. The Talgos were selected because of the desire to get maximum speeds through the curves on the CP/Soo Line track in west Milwaukee, Wauwatosa, Elm Grove, Brookfield, and Oconomowoc. Although the eastern end of the Milwaukee-Madison route is extremely curvy, the remainder is fairly straight, with curves in Watertown (near a stop) and Sun Prairie. While the Talgo buy isn't cheap, there are some definite curve/timetable issues west of Milwaukee that the Talgo technology would mitigate, especially when compared to Horizon equipment. Speculated double-deck equipment would perform even worse on those curves. As for the Talgo maintenance costs versus Amtrak lease rates, the deal pencils much better when one is doing an analysis for six Hiawatha round-trips to Madison daily. When one analyzes only for Hiawatha to Milwaukee, the deal can be made to look bad. Whatever one thinks about the appropriateness of Talgo technology, keep in mind that the Walker people are trying to kill any future possibility of service to Madison by any means possible. Do not believe the propaganda that they issue -- they're not truthful. As for their reasons, Walker & Company are trying their damnedest to get rid of equipment that would work well between Milwaukee and Madison, not because of the financial issues, but simply because they hate Madison.
 
As for their reasons, Walker & Company are trying their damnedest to get rid of equipment that would work well between Milwaukee and Madison, not because of the financial issues, but simply because they hate Madison.
Through the whole Wisconsin fiasco, this is the first explanation I've heard that rings true. It obvious that the financial issue was a hoax. There isn't any question in my mind that the Madison service would be one of the most successful train start ups ever. After all, cheese head aren't that different culturally from Illinoisans. And all of the Illinois trains are very successful, some of which have only a small fraction of the population along the line, compared to Madison - Milwaukee.
 
The Doyle administration contracted for the Talgo sets back in 2008-09 in anticipation of extending Hiawatha service to Madison, not to service only CHI-MILW. The route between Milwaukee and Madison had been identified and planned since the mid-1990s in the Tommy Thompson administration, with the EA/FONSI finalized in 2003. The Talgos were selected because of the desire to get maximum speeds through the curves on the CP/Soo Line track in west Milwaukee, Wauwatosa, Elm Grove, Brookfield, and Oconomowoc. Although the eastern end of the Milwaukee-Madison route is extremely curvy, the remainder is fairly straight, with curves in Watertown (near a stop) and Sun Prairie. While the Talgo buy isn't cheap, there are some definite curve/timetable issues west of Milwaukee that the Talgo technology would mitigate, especially when compared to Horizon equipment. Speculated double-deck equipment would perform even worse on those curves. As for the Talgo maintenance costs versus Amtrak lease rates, the deal pencils much better when one is doing an analysis for six Hiawatha round-trips to Madison daily. When one analyzes only for Hiawatha to Milwaukee, the deal can be made to look bad. Whatever one thinks about the appropriateness of Talgo technology, keep in mind that the Walker people are trying to kill any future possibility of service to Madison by any means possible. Do not believe the propaganda that they issue -- they're not truthful. As for their reasons, Walker & Company are trying their damnedest to get rid of equipment that would work well between Milwaukee and Madison, not because of the financial issues, but simply because they hate Madison.
Thanks. Interesting to hear that there are actually some curves there. It is not track that I (at least) have any familiarity with.

But, a question: apart from passenger comfort, how would Talgos help in curves in a US context? They do two things: improve passenger comfort (the tilt lessens centrifugal force), and substantially lessen track damage.

In Europe, where the operator owns the track, the track damage angle is an important one. And in Spain, where the regulatory authority is used to them after 50 years, they are allowed to trade these benefits against higher speeds. That is: go through the curves faster, yielding comfort equivalent to other equipment at a lower speed (track damage, a geometrical progression with weight and speed, is still lower), but shorter trip times.

In the US, all the track damage benefits accrue to the operating railroad, no? And the FRA wouldn't let them go an any faster than whatever the regulatory line speed was determined to be... So you would just have an increase in passenger comfort left. My experience with US passenger trains is that that is not a high-priority objective.
 
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As for their reasons, Walker & Company are trying their damnedest to get rid of equipment that would work well between Milwaukee and Madison, not because of the financial issues, but simply because they hate Madison.
Through the whole Wisconsin fiasco, this is the first explanation I've heard that rings true. It obvious that the financial issue was a hoax. There isn't any question in my mind that the Madison service would be one of the most successful train start ups ever. After all, cheese head aren't that different culturally from Illinoisans. And all of the Illinois trains are very successful, some of which have only a small fraction of the population along the line, compared to Madison - Milwaukee.
There were other reasons to believe in the start-up, and that is presumably why the Feds gave WI the money, in the face of stiff competition.

- Connectivity (to Chicago, with ongoing connections across the midwest and the nation)

- Urban cores at both ends (whether one takes the eastern end to be CHI or Milwaukee) with strong public transit networks (relatively speaking): important for passenger distribution.

- State capital, which always produces higher ridership figures than an equivalent city of the same size (so do university towns, and Madison is both)

- Meaningful possibility of a western extension (to Minneapolis)

I don't know that many people think Walker's decision was based on cold economic analysis. By the time he was elected, the decision to pursue the project would have been expense-neutral for WI at worst (though perhaps not for the nation). Lots of Fed money, construction jobs, economic development benefits... all bringing increased tax revenue, would have offset operating losses for the next 20 years (time lines are tough beyond that). And it wasn't sure that there would even be any operating losses: depended on who you believed. Plus, WI would have wound up with a piece of infrastructure that would have significantly improved the lives of its citizens, saved not a few Wisconsin lives / avoided permanent maimings, and lessened carbon-based environmental damage.

In the days following the election, many, many people, including many Walker supporters / Republican business leaders (who also stood to benefit — you would not have had to show a party registration to get a construction contract or to ride the train), made these points, more or less quietly, to the incoming administration. Walker stood firm, on the avowed grounds that he had made a campaign promise, and was not about to start his new administration by going back on it. But I doubt that that was the whole story.

So, why did he cancel the deal? Because he "hates Madison?" Maybe, if that is a code word. Perhaps because the type of transformation that the train would have brought, mostly of benefit to people unlikely to vote his way, is not one that he can approve of. It densifies and supports the economic vitality of urban cores, channels passenger flows into a heavily-used corridor, helps mobility (and thus opportunity) for the poor and for young people... who are then empowered to go out and vote in an informed manner. Note that Walker's other great crusade was against... public education.

Republican governance is good for an extremely wealthy top fringe of the population willing to isolate itself from the rest of us, and for defenders of individual liberty who are willing to sacrifice economic and physical well-being (including their own) to hold on to that liberty. These two populations represent, say, 2% + 25% of the total. And they rationally vote for the Walkers of the world: 1%ers who promise to the 25% that they will "stay out of their lives," and keep other people out.

But you have to get to 50% (well, 48% if you play your cards right ;-) to win elections. And the remaining 23% have to come from people too dumb to understand what is being done to them. Neither education, nor mobility and opportunity shared with the poor, can be on your wish list if your survival depends on keeping 23% of the population dumb as posts....
 
So, why did he cancel the deal? Because he "hates Madison?" Maybe, if that is a code word. Perhaps because the type of transformation that the train would have brought, mostly of benefit to people unlikely to vote his way, is not one that he can approve of. It densifies and supports the economic vitality of urban cores, channels passenger flows into a heavily-used corridor, helps mobility (and thus opportunity) for the poor and for young people... who are then empowered to go out and vote in an informed manner. Note that Walker's other great crusade was against... public education.

Aside from fulfilling a campaign promise intended to satisfy Walker's base in the Milwaukee suburbs (especially in Waukesha County, Tea Party central), the operative phrase I've heard second-hand from Walker administration folks is: "Madison has sucked enough from the government teat." The merits of train service to Madison has substantively nothing to do with the opposition; the opposition is entirely based on longstanding resentment of Madison centered in Waukesha County (and fueled by conservative talk radio nonsense, mostly via Charlie Sykes). FYI, the Talgo contract preceded the ARRA grant process (that awarded $810 million for Milwaukee-Madison service) by a whole year. WisDOT intended to buy the Talgos regardless of the grant, with initial funding sourced from $100 million in bonding authorized in 2008 (which is still in effect).
 
But, a question: apart from passenger comfort, how would Talgos help in curves in a US context? They do two things: improve passenger comfort (the tilt lessens centrifugal force), and substantially lessen track damage.
That is factually incorrect. The wheel rail interface forces are not changed at all by the body tilting. What the body tilting does is reduce the perceived lateral force in the carriage. That is why it is used. In any case the heaviest part of the train, if it is powered by a locomotive, itself does not usually tilt.

I am sure George, who is a track engineer can explain the dynamics of all this much better than I

In the US, all the track damage benefits accrue to the operating railroad, no? And the FRA wouldn't let them go an any faster than whatever the regulatory line speed was determined to be... So you would just have an increase in passenger comfort left. My experience with US passenger trains is that that is not a high-priority objective.
That is also factually incorrect. Maximum speed allowed on curves is determined by a few things:

(i) The track class

(ii) The degree of the curve

(iii) The amount of superelevation underbalance allowed for a particular equipment

(iv) The height of the center of gravity of the equipment in question from top of rail.

(v) Axle load of the train.

You basically plug these things into a standard formula and you get the max allowed speed.

FRA takes into consideration passenger comfort through specification of maximum lateral force allowed. This is the factor that can be controlled through tilting. Consequently tilting trains are allowed to operate with higher underbalance thus allowing them higher speeds on curves than equivalent non-tilting trains.

Contrary to your contention, at present Cascade Talgos and Acelas are allowed anywhere upto 5 to 15mph faster speeds on curves compared to non-tilting equipment.

AFAIU The difference between Europe and USA is that the maximum superelevation allowed in the US is much less than in Europe because Europe simply does not have 20 feet tall stuff running around. Naturally such equipment would be more prone to toppling over than the sedate 14 to 15 feet tall stuff that is the max in Europe in general circulation. It is also true that FRA does not allow as much underbalance as Europeans do, which reduces the incremental additional max speed that tilting equipment can get in the US when compared to Europe.

Again, I yield to George to correct me if I am wrong in any of this, but in general this is the shape of things.
 
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But, a question: apart from passenger comfort, how would Talgos help in curves in a US context? They do two things: improve passenger comfort (the tilt lessens centrifugal force), and substantially lessen track damage.
That is factually incorrect. The wheel rail interface forces are not changed at all by the body tilting. What the body tilting does is reduce the perceived lateral force in the carriage. That is why it is used. In any case the heaviest part of the train, if it is powered by a locomotive, itself does not usually tilt.
I think that BMT's original claim with respect to lessened track damage are based on the lighter per-axle weight of the Talgos, not the tilt action.
 
But, a question: apart from passenger comfort, how would Talgos help in curves in a US context? They do two things: improve passenger comfort (the tilt lessens centrifugal force), and substantially lessen track damage.
That is factually incorrect. The wheel rail interface forces are not changed at all by the body tilting. What the body tilting does is reduce the perceived lateral force in the carriage. That is why it is used. In any case the heaviest part of the train, if it is powered by a locomotive, itself does not usually tilt.
I think that BMT's original claim with respect to lessened track damage are based on the lighter per-axle weight of the Talgos, not the tilt action.
That is certainly true. But the damage would be less irrespective of whether it tilted or not. And whether higher speeds are allowed on curves for tilting trains or not has little to do with track damage either, except of course for the fact that higher speeds in general increase track damage, tilt or not. And yes, as I alluded to weight is a factor in track damage.
 
I'm kind of wondering why, if these are such a wonderful design and advanced rail system, couldn't Wisconsin sell them to someone else? Even at a steep discount, the state could recover debt, Talgos would get paid, and we'd all be relieved.

Or aren't there any other states that want these? Could that be a sign that something besides us wanting rail service and pretty trains, is terribly wrong here.

Why aren't there other buyers lined up for a great discount deal?
This thread has been going on so long that it is starting to cycle through new readers. The first point to make is that, as far as we know, WI isn't offering any discount deal to anyone. And though there are probably no takers at full price, that doesn't make the trains bad.

Here is an updated version of my comment on this point, from back on page 2:

Talgo technology, which is brilliant, makes sense in 3 places:

(1) Curvy track. The pendular cars "lean into" the curves, increasing passenger comfort and potentially allowing for higher speeds, though FRA rules make no allowance for this in the US. In Spain, where the Talgos were born, conventional lines will have three speed limits. For instance: Freight, 80 kph. Passenger, 100 kph. Talgo, 120 kph.

(2) "Bad" track. Independent wheel suspension makes the trains less subject to a rough ride at high speed. Note that this effect apparently vanishes at low speed on jointed rail, and may even be negative.

(3) Routes where Amtrak can gain a benefit from a lightweight train that inflicts minimal damage on the track, and so lessens maintenance costs at equivalent speeds. So, routes where Amtrak owns its own track, or routes where the operating railroad charges by per-axle weight — I don't think any railroad does this in the US.

 

The oh-so-obvious route for the Talgos, apart from the Cascades (to which they are well-suited) is the Vermonter, where all three conditions are met. But the high platforms of the NEC are not compatible with the tiny profile Talgo cars. The Adirondack is another, but you still have Penn Station, Croton Harmon, maybe others. So are the Carolinian, the Pennsylvanian, probably even the Lynchburger. But they all run up against those high NEC platforms. A train headed south from DC in the morning, back in the evening? That would make some sense (especially on the Crescent route), but I don't know if there is space for a "Talgo House" in DC, and you lose the "track damage" benefit.

 

Others have mentioned the California coast ("Coast Daylight"), and, yes, that would seem to make sense, too. Again, Amtrak gets no benefit from the light weight / low track damage angle. But 2 out of 3 ain't bad. The only other Amtrak-owned corridor is Michigan's, but the Talgos aren't on Michigan's radar. Maybe they will be, at the right price, but the state isn't rolling in dough at the moment.

In any event, flat "I" states (and southern WI might as well be one) are not the best place for these trains, and it was always a mistake to buy them for WI. Doyle's administration seems to have done so because Talgo offered to build its North American plant there, so there were a lot of good jobs on the line, too: maybe worth buying a too-fancy train, whose bells and whistles could not be exploited in the local context? Regardless, WI's voters repudiated all that, so WI wound up with the albatross (inappropriate trains) and not the benefit (the plant is shutting down, and the workers are all being fired).

The only WI application I can imagine for the Talgos now would be on a daylight schedule to Minneapolis (track northwest of Milwaukee has some curves), were Minnesota to come on board.

As other posters have pointed out, wherever you put them, some specialized maintenance is required, usually provided by Talgo itself. This maintenance could have been performed in the factory where the trains were built, but any new purchaser (other than the Pac NW, which already has what it needs) would need to build a facility, at significant cost.

 

So, the only likely buyers are the Pac NW states (but which just bought two, and whose host railroads are hostile to additional trains), or some other place meeting the above criteria, and in the market for those two and several more. Two trains sets aren't worth much as a stand-alone purchase.

For all that, the chances are good that what you suggest is exactly what will happen. Some state with a pro-rail governor and legislature will offer WI $30 million for the $74 million sets, leaving the headroom needed to put $20 million into a maintenance facility. Everyone wins, except WI, but which is out "only" half of what it has spent.

Wherever they go, let's hope that they are used properly, enjoy a long service life, and benefit many people! They are clever trains.
AFAIK Michigan intends to get in on the bilevel order with the rest of the Midwest; I can't see anyone there being interested in a pair of one-off trainsets which can't interoperate with the rest of the Chicago equipment and which have fixed capacity. I recall working out once that it takes at least four trainsets to serve the three Wolverine round-trips per day. Further, the Michigan Line is relatively straight and flat throughout. Michigan's main focus right now is getting the rest of the ex-Michigan Central wrested away from Norfolk Southern and its "maintenance standards." We have no time for Wisconsin's toy trains.
 
But, a question: apart from passenger comfort, how would Talgos help in curves in a US context? They do two things: improve passenger comfort (the tilt lessens centrifugal force), and substantially lessen track damage.
That is factually incorrect. The wheel rail interface forces are not changed at all by the body tilting. What the body tilting does is reduce the perceived lateral force in the carriage. That is why it is used. In any case the heaviest part of the train, if it is powered by a locomotive, itself does not usually tilt.

I am sure George, who is a track engineer can explain the dynamics of all this much better than I


I respectfully stand by the statement.

It is the train weight, not the tilting, that lessens the track damage. Forgive me if I was unclear.

For general interest:

http://www.talgoamer...ew.aspx?id=over
 
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In the US, all the track damage benefits accrue to the operating railroad, no? And the FRA wouldn't let them go an any faster than whatever the regulatory line speed was determined to be... So you would just have an increase in passenger comfort left. My experience with US passenger trains is that that is not a high-priority objective.
That is also factually incorrect.
How can a question be factually incorrect? Am I missing something?
 
In the US, all the track damage benefits accrue to the operating railroad, no? And the FRA wouldn't let them go an any faster than whatever the regulatory line speed was determined to be... So you would just have an increase in passenger comfort left. My experience with US passenger trains is that that is not a high-priority objective.
That is also factually incorrect.
How can a question be factually incorrect? Am I missing something?
Just to make it clear what is incorrect is the statement "And the FRA wouldn't let them go an any faster than whatever the regulatory line speed was determined to be", which I interpreted to mean that FRA would not allow a tilt train to go faster than a non-tilt train. If that was not your intent then it is my mistaken interpretation that I was responding to. I came to this conclusion since you claimed that the only advantage would be passenger comfort and not an increase in speed (presumably).

Taking the more broad interpretation, it is also a fact that European Rail Regulators would not let a train go faster than what the regulation determines there. So that would seem to be just a statement of the obvious, and no different from the situation in the USA.

So please clarify what you meant to say. Thanks.
 
But, a question: apart from passenger comfort, how would Talgos help in curves in a US context? They do two things: improve passenger comfort (the tilt lessens centrifugal force), and substantially lessen track damage.
That is factually incorrect. The wheel rail interface forces are not changed at all by the body tilting. What the body tilting does is reduce the perceived lateral force in the carriage. That is why it is used. In any case the heaviest part of the train, if it is powered by a locomotive, itself does not usually tilt.

I am sure George, who is a track engineer can explain the dynamics of all this much better than I
I respectfully stand by the statement.

It is the train weight, not the tilting, that lessens the track damage. Forgive me if I was unclear.

For general interest:

http://www.talgoamer...ew.aspx?id=over
Just to be clear, how tilting helps in the US is by allowing higher speeds on curves thus reducing the total running time of the train, just like it does in Europe.
 
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In the US, all the track damage benefits accrue to the operating railroad, no? And the FRA wouldn't let them go an any faster than whatever the regulatory line speed was determined to be... So you would just have an increase in passenger comfort left. My experience with US passenger trains is that that is not a high-priority objective.
That is also factually incorrect. Maximum speed allowed on curves is determined by a few things:

(i) The track class

(ii) The degree of the curve

(iii) The amount of superelevation underbalance allowed for a particular equipment

(iv) The height of the center of gravity of the equipment in question from top of rail.

(v) Axle load of the train.

You basically plug these things into a standard formula and you get the max allowed speed.

FRA takes into consideration passenger comfort through specification of maximum lateral force allowed. This is the factor that can be controlled through tilting. Consequently tilting trains are allowed to operate with higher underbalance thus allowing them higher speeds on curves than equivalent non-tilting trains.

Contrary to your contention, at present Cascade Talgos and Acelas are allowed anywhere upto 5 to 15mph faster speeds on curves compared to non-tilting equipment.

AFAIU The difference between Europe and USA is that the maximum superelevation allowed in the US is much less than in Europe because Europe simply does not have 20 feet tall stuff running around. Naturally such equipment would be more prone to toppling over than the sedate 14 to 15 feet tall stuff that is the max in Europe in general circulation. It is also true that FRA does not allow as much underbalance as Europeans do, which reduces the incremental additional max speed that tilting equipment can get in the US when compared to Europe.

Again, I yield to George to correct me if I am wrong in any of this, but in general this is the shape of things.


I'm happy to learn a lot of this stuff (and did not mean to "contend" that Talgos and Acelas were not allowed higher speeds: I hypothesized that they were not).

Indeed, more generally, I asked questions to which you have answers, and I receive the information gratefully. I am especially happy to learn that the FRA is that sophisticated in measuring track stresses — information that is truly new for me, and surprising.

I will permit myself to nuance one of your points. While you are correct that the locomotive is the heaviest vehicle on the train, having one heavy vehicle slam through a curve is better (from a point of view of track stress) than having a whole series of them do so. I am sure that George will confirm this.

Moreover, wouldn't that make my hypothesis correct, after all? (Note question mark)

If the locomotive weight / underbalance / height of center of gravity / whatever determines the train speed, wouldn't the Talgo equipment hauled by a conventional locomotive be restricted to the speed allowed to that locomotive?

George, would love to meet you, and would love your input.

Nicolas
 
In the US, all the track damage benefits accrue to the operating railroad, no? And the FRA wouldn't let them go an any faster than whatever the regulatory line speed was determined to be... So you would just have an increase in passenger comfort left. My experience with US passenger trains is that that is not a high-priority objective.
That is also factually incorrect.
How can a question be factually incorrect? Am I missing something?
Just to make it clear what is incorrect is the statement "And the FRA wouldn't let them go an any faster than whatever the regulatory line speed was determined to be"

...

So please clarify what you meant to say. Thanks.
I asked a question, which I see (by your reaction) was poorly formulated: "In the US, all the track damage benefits accrue to the operating railroad, no?" The declaratives that followed were dependent on the answer to the question being that yes, indeed, all track damage benefits accrue to the operating railroad. But the "no?" was intended to invite the supplemental information you supplied.

Your input on the underbalance business makes it clear that, in fact, "no." That at least some of the benefits accrue to the operator, Amtrak. If Amtrak is allowed to run the Talgos faster thru curves, yielding higher speeds at similar tolerances for track stress and passenger comfort, then my hypothesis is incorrect. But, again, it was not intended as a statement of fact, only as a hypothesis. Sorry for the confusion.
 
If the locomotive weight / underbalance / height of center of gravity / whatever determines the train speed, wouldn't the Talgo equipment hauled by a conventional locomotive be restricted to the speed allowed to that locomotive?

George, would love to meet you, and would love your input.

Nicolas
Hey, Sorry for coming across a bit harsh earlier. I owe you a public apology. Please accept my apology.

Indeed in case of the Talgo operation on the Cascade Corridor it very well may be the case that that is what will determine the max speed on curves. But even that is higher than is allowed for non-tilting trains.

There are two fctors involved here....

A standard passenger train can safely go around a curve much faster than it is cleared for. The lower speed is determined by passenger comfort. A tilting carriage effectively increases the speed at which the train can go around a curve within the lateral accelerations standards used by the FRA to account for passenger comfort. It is OK for the engine that does not tilt to go around the curve at that higher speed since it does not contain any passengers. The Engineer has to hold on to his seat a bit more carefully I suppose. This suggests that the track stress issue or the centrifugal toppling over issuer are not the ruling ones in setting passenger train speeds on curves. The standards are very very conservative a way well within the safety envelope.

Effectively though, what happens in the certification deal is that the entire train set as a whole is certified for operating within specific parameters. Individual pieces of the train may or may not be allowed to operate within the same parameters separately. So while an engine as part of a Talgo set is allowed certain speeds on curves does not imply that they'd be allowed the same speed running light engine. I am not quite sure what the analysis involved is, but apparently the dynamic behavior of the same thing can be quite different when it is part of a consist from when it is separate, and indeed it can be different depending on its location in a consist too.

For example AEM-7s and HHP-8s running light I don't believe are allowed to go at 125mph. Individual Acela cars or power heads are not allowed to operate as part of other consists at anything higher than 80mph I believe, or something even lower.
 
FYI, the Talgo contract preceded the ARRA grant process (that awarded $810 million for Milwaukee-Madison service) by a whole year. WisDOT intended to buy the Talgos regardless of the grant, with initial funding sourced from $100 million in bonding authorized in 2008 (which is still in effect).
That's right! I remember that now. Indeed, LaHood cited WI's manifest (prior) commitment to passenger rail as one of the reasons for selecting the WI project.
 
The Doyle administration contracted for the Talgo sets back in 2008-09 in anticipation of extending Hiawatha service to Madison, not to service only CHI-MILW. The route between Milwaukee and Madison had been identified and planned since the mid-1990s in the Tommy Thompson administration, with the EA/FONSI finalized in 2003. The Talgos were selected because of the desire to get maximum speeds through the curves on the CP/Soo Line track in west Milwaukee, Wauwatosa, Elm Grove, Brookfield, and Oconomowoc. Although the eastern end of the Milwaukee-Madison route is extremely curvy, the remainder is fairly straight, with curves in Watertown (near a stop) and Sun Prairie. While the Talgo buy isn't cheap, there are some definite curve/timetable issues west of Milwaukee that the Talgo technology would mitigate, especially when compared to Horizon equipment. Speculated double-deck equipment would perform even worse on those curves. As for the Talgo maintenance costs versus Amtrak lease rates, the deal pencils much better when one is doing an analysis for six Hiawatha round-trips to Madison daily. When one analyzes only for Hiawatha to Milwaukee, the deal can be made to look bad. Whatever one thinks about the appropriateness of Talgo technology, keep in mind that the Walker people are trying to kill any future possibility of service to Madison by any means possible. Do not believe the propaganda that they issue -- they're not truthful. As for their reasons, Walker & Company are trying their damnedest to get rid of equipment that would work well between Milwaukee and Madison, not because of the financial issues, but simply because they hate Madison.

The anti-rail criticism also found considerable roots among those who either have never needed transit (or trains), and those who are unfamiliar with trains. Many folks who voted for Walker fall into that category -- as do members of Walker's staff. It becomes easy to oppose something when a. one sees no need for it in one's personal life, ever, and b. One doesn't know anyone who needs or has needed such a service. Many Walker supporters have never set foot aboard a train, and, as a result, opposed Amtrak spending because they see no need for trains.
 
If the locomotive weight / underbalance / height of center of gravity / whatever determines the train speed, wouldn't the Talgo equipment hauled by a conventional locomotive be restricted to the speed allowed to that locomotive?

George, would love to meet you, and would love your input.

Nicolas
A standard passenger train can safely go around a curve much faster than it is cleared for. The lower speed is determined by passenger comfort. A tilting carriage effectively increases the speed at which the train can go around a curve within the lateral accelerations standards used by the FRA to account for passenger comfort. It is OK for the engine that does not tilt to go around the curve at that higher speed since it does not contain any passengers. The Engineer has to hold on to his seat a bit more carefully I suppose. This suggests that the track stress issue or the centrifugal toppling over issuer are not the ruling ones in setting passenger train speeds on curves. The standards are very very conservative a way well within the safety envelope.
Yes, the Spanish say this, too: that the safety envelope is quite different than the passenger comfort envelope. It is one reason that they stopped developing Talgo-style (low center of gravity, not tilting) locomotives.

Still, I have always wondered about the track stress angle, heavy loco slamming around a curve at high speed. Can't be good. But I'm not enough of an engineer to know.

No worries about the prior exchange, but thanks for the kind words.
 
So, why did he cancel the deal? Because he "hates Madison?" Maybe, if that is a code word. Perhaps because the type of transformation that the train would have brought, mostly of benefit to people unlikely to vote his way, is not one that he can approve of. It densifies and supports the economic vitality of urban cores, channels passenger flows into a heavily-used corridor, helps mobility (and thus opportunity) for the poor and for young people... who are then empowered to go out and vote in an informed manner. Note that Walker's other great crusade was against... public education.
This.
 
Did the State of Wisconsin Screw Talgo?

For more than a year, Talgo CEO Antonio Perez has held his tongue as detractors dumped on his company and its trains, until finally he could take no more. Perez cannot believe the State of Wisconsin has chosen to terminate two contracts it signed with Talgo nearly three years ago. His company has put almost three years of work into a project to build and maintain trains in a warehouse in Milwaukee’s 30th Street Corridor, the long-dormant industrial area Gov. Scott Walker has pledged to help revive with a new, $100 million dollar plan. Yet his administration will kill the only viable company now operating there, Talgo.
 
Passenger Train Journal 2012-2 • Issue 251 (White River Productions) has a story in it about the TALGO trains.

A minor (but well believed) error sneaked in, but still a good read, if you can find a copy of it.
 
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