I am so disgusted with this. Wisconsin and its citizens (supports of HSR excluded) deserve the worse for allowing this to happen. I sincerely hope that the starting line ups of the Packer's offense and defense experience career ending injuries. Cheese head nation deserves whatever it gets.
Talgos mothballed?
- Thread starter Steve4031
- Start date
Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:
- Status
What numbers did they "cook" to make the Talgos look expensive?
Something cooking in Wisconsin.
From a story by The Milwaukee-Wisconsin Journal Sentinel
"The Wisconsin State Department of Transportation estimated that using the Amtrak equipment would be $10 million a year cheaper than using new state-owned trains. Talgo says the state would save $12 million a year by using its equipment." <_<
Pick the numbers you want to prove your case.
"Never let the facts get in your way."
From a story by The Milwaukee-Wisconsin Journal Sentinel
"The Wisconsin State Department of Transportation estimated that using the Amtrak equipment would be $10 million a year cheaper than using new state-owned trains. Talgo says the state would save $12 million a year by using its equipment." <_<
Pick the numbers you want to prove your case.
"Never let the facts get in your way."
If Talgo says the state would save $12 million/year, I'd like them to provide the numbers to back it up.
The $10 million figure from WisDOT is simply the difference between the Talgo contracted maintenance price and what the state is paying Amtrak to use existing equipment.
If Talgo says that the state's numbers are wrong, then they should provide the details to prove it.
Mackensen
Lead Service Attendant
If the Talgos really aren't ADA compliant then that's a huge screw-up on the part of either Talgo, Wisconsin DOT (under the previous administration), or both. Anyone have more information on this?
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
Maybe FEC will negotiate an attractive lease agreement with Talgo to use in the inaugural of the FEC passenger service?
It is everybody's mistake. Talgo, if they want to do business in the US should know and adhere to the ADA standards. It is Wisconsin's fault for not ensuring that the equipment is ADA compliant. And if the ADA guidelines are that confusing, then it is the fault of the people who wrote that too. I think people are just being stupid in trying to play CYA in this situation.
Blue Marble Travel
Service Attendant
"YOU provide the numbers. No, YOU provide the numbers. YOU first. No, YOU."
There are a lot of numbers out there, and even on the first 5 pages of this thread. They point in different directions based on how you assume the maintenance costs of the existing (and aging) Amtrak equipment will evolve, how you think riders would have reacted to the new equipment... and especially, how you voted in the last election. And they don't really matter, because the Talgos won't run in WI for reasons that have nothing to do with numbers, Talgos, or anything other than the politics surrounding their demise.
Here is betting that the ADA issue (which doesn't seem to exist in the Pacific Northwest) is not really an issue. If you and I have a deal, and I want to go back on the deal, I look for a reason to blame you, to show the outside world that, even though I am the one who appears to be backing out, it is really your fault. Even if I don't find one, I figure that just threatening you with a court process will be enough for you to cut me some slack. It's just legal blackmail. "Reduce my bill by 20%, and I'll pay you quickly, and not make a fuss. You're a foreign company, up against a state defending its taxpayers... you're not going to cut a sympathetic figure in court, especially since I'll arrange to have the judge be one that I appointed..."
I hope that Talgo stands firm and fights to get paid its due. It seems to have done everything it said it would, and should get paid for that. The anglo-saxon in me says that justice should be done. Talgo has nothing to do with Wisconsin politics, and should not be the victim of same. It is an upstanding, successful, and skillful company, employing innovative technology around the world.
Is that technology appropriate to the tangent track of Wisconsin? Probably not. Whose fault is that? Doyle's? Probably. He went for the new plant, and the attendant jobs, and didn't think much about the appropriateness of the trains.
Would the 4 sets have nonetheless worked in a Madison - Milwaukee - Chicago corridor? Yes, just fine, and the corridor would have been funded by the rest of us. Now it won't happen. Wisconsin is on the hook for expensive toys it can't use, has lost a game-changing improvement to its transportation system, and all those jobs. Whose fault is that? Walker's? Probably.
The rest is just money, and the Republicans fighting to hold on to WI in the face of a truly stupid series of mistakes, the logical consequence of a slavish adherence to dogma. Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.
Truth will have nothing to do with the coming debate. It will just be a bunch of people shouting past each other, trying to get what they want, whether or not they deserve it. I join others in this post (Steve4031) in feeling a certain level of disgust.
There are a lot of numbers out there, and even on the first 5 pages of this thread. They point in different directions based on how you assume the maintenance costs of the existing (and aging) Amtrak equipment will evolve, how you think riders would have reacted to the new equipment... and especially, how you voted in the last election. And they don't really matter, because the Talgos won't run in WI for reasons that have nothing to do with numbers, Talgos, or anything other than the politics surrounding their demise.
Here is betting that the ADA issue (which doesn't seem to exist in the Pacific Northwest) is not really an issue. If you and I have a deal, and I want to go back on the deal, I look for a reason to blame you, to show the outside world that, even though I am the one who appears to be backing out, it is really your fault. Even if I don't find one, I figure that just threatening you with a court process will be enough for you to cut me some slack. It's just legal blackmail. "Reduce my bill by 20%, and I'll pay you quickly, and not make a fuss. You're a foreign company, up against a state defending its taxpayers... you're not going to cut a sympathetic figure in court, especially since I'll arrange to have the judge be one that I appointed..."
I hope that Talgo stands firm and fights to get paid its due. It seems to have done everything it said it would, and should get paid for that. The anglo-saxon in me says that justice should be done. Talgo has nothing to do with Wisconsin politics, and should not be the victim of same. It is an upstanding, successful, and skillful company, employing innovative technology around the world.
Is that technology appropriate to the tangent track of Wisconsin? Probably not. Whose fault is that? Doyle's? Probably. He went for the new plant, and the attendant jobs, and didn't think much about the appropriateness of the trains.
Would the 4 sets have nonetheless worked in a Madison - Milwaukee - Chicago corridor? Yes, just fine, and the corridor would have been funded by the rest of us. Now it won't happen. Wisconsin is on the hook for expensive toys it can't use, has lost a game-changing improvement to its transportation system, and all those jobs. Whose fault is that? Walker's? Probably.
The rest is just money, and the Republicans fighting to hold on to WI in the face of a truly stupid series of mistakes, the logical consequence of a slavish adherence to dogma. Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.
Truth will have nothing to do with the coming debate. It will just be a bunch of people shouting past each other, trying to get what they want, whether or not they deserve it. I join others in this post (Steve4031) in feeling a certain level of disgust.
Last edited by a moderator:
G
Guest
Guest
The CHI-MLW corridor do not need Talgos. They need the bilevels that the Illinois corridor trains will be using. The Talgos were a bad decission for this corridor in the first place. They work great in the Pacific Northwest but not in Chi-MLW corridor.
Baloney. The Talgos are ADA compliant to the extent that the ADA compliance is specified. There is always some wiggle room in interpreting EXACTLY what is needed to be ADA compliant. This smacks of the state legal department having been tasked with finding an excuse to either get out of the contract or find something to use as leverage to lower the penalty that WI may have to pay for breaking the agreement. The charges and counter-charges are just the opening salvos of what is likely to be a drawn out legal process.
If I were the Talgo Corporation management, I would not blame them if they decided to give up on the US market because of this mess. They set up an assembly plant which built only 4 trainsets when they had to be planning on a bunch of follow-on orders. Very likely lost money on the deal.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
Yeah. Just imagine. Talgo produced two ADA compliant sets for Cascades and then went out of its way at additional expense to produce two special ADA non-compliant sets for WI. This smacks of political chicanery more than anything else.
BTW, I'd be very surprised if Talgo and FEC are not talking already.
BTW, I'd be very surprised if Talgo and FEC are not talking already.
Devil's Advocate
⠀⠀⠀
Absolutely.
I wouldn't blame any passenger rail manufacturer from giving up on the hopelessly schizophrenic American passenger rail market.
It's becoming more and more clear by the day that the adults among us are no longer in charge of the budget.
These days it's all about scoring points with your base and proving your ideological purity.
Blue Marble Travel
Service Attendant
Of course they were, Guest Guest. There aren't many of us on this thread who think that Talgo technology was ideally suited to straight track in the upper midwest.
But they are built, and paid for, and about to start life on a siding, unless you happen to have a vaporizer gun. And the bilevels aren't built, or paid for, and now what?
ADA requirements have changed. As of 1 Feb any new project need to meet the new requirements. It's not about the equipment, but how the equipment and platforms match up. It seem the door and platform much be at the same height now. Talgo equipment use a lift system to get wheelchairs on board. So it now the platforms that need to be modified in Wisconsin to meet ADA requirement. That the Wisconsin blames Talgo for not building there equipment with the door edges below the rail head, is all about the blame game.
Well said. I agree, but now that we see the problem, how do we fix it?
These recent ADA changes have also been what has held up the redesign and reconstruction of the Milwaukee trainshed/concourse/platform area as well.
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
I didn't think it was a good idea to order Talgos in the first place. Multiple or articulated units have caused much trouble in he US because the government won't field large amounts of them. Wisconsin won't, so the maintainance cost is too high.
Talgo three major selling points are:
1) Passive tilt train [faster speeds in curves]
2) The maintance system [availability of the equipment]
3) Multi gauge wheels [Europe issue]
How or why Wisconsin order them is another issue, but they got them now, so are we going to see them run in service or wait for them to be sold to someone else?
I got a refund from the IRS this year. If they are willing to take a loss. I will be right there with my check book in hand.
Edit due to spelling / incorrect word / long day issue.
1) Passive tilt train [faster speeds in curves]
2) The maintance system [availability of the equipment]
3) Multi gauge wheels [Europe issue]
How or why Wisconsin order them is another issue, but they got them now, so are we going to see them run in service or wait for them to be sold to someone else?
I got a refund from the IRS this year. If they are willing to take a loss. I will be right there with my check book in hand.
Edit due to spelling / incorrect word / long day issue.
Last edited by a moderator:
MattW
Conductor
So so will this have the effect of requiring all high level platforms in all new station construction?
That's an idea! Maybe AU should put together a Kickstarter project to buy them. They just raised $4 million to build a fancy watch, so why not a couple of Talgos? Hey, Anderson, didn't you have a thread a while back on buying private varnish?
J
Jim Prufrock
Guest
I'm kind of wondering why, if these are such a wonderful design and advanced rail system, couldn't Wisconsin sell them to someone else? Even at a steep discount, the state could recover debt, Talgos would get paid, and we'd all be relieved.
Or aren't there any other states that want these? Could that be a sign that something besides us wanting rail service and pretty trains, is terribly wrong here.
Why aren't there other buyers lined up for a great discount deal?
Or aren't there any other states that want these? Could that be a sign that something besides us wanting rail service and pretty trains, is terribly wrong here.
Why aren't there other buyers lined up for a great discount deal?
P
Paulus Magnus
Guest
It wouldn't really mesh well with most state's existing fleets. Cascades, where they already use it, is the most likely purchaser. Alternatively, Amtrak may purchase to cheaply resurrect the Desert Wind (but by all indications, they have no interest in enhancing long distance travel) or California could, in theory, use them for the planned Coast Daylight service instead of a normal Surfliner consist. All Aboard Florida is the only other potential purchaser, but the tilting capabilities bring no benefit to them and I suspect they'll buy conventional equipment instead.
Blue Marble Travel
Service Attendant
This thread has been going on so long that it is starting to cycle through new readers. The first point to make is that, as far as we know, WI isn't offering any discount deal to anyone. And though there are probably no takers at full price, that doesn't make the trains bad.
Here is an updated version of my comment on this point, from back on page 2:
Talgo technology, which is brilliant, makes sense in 3 places:
(1) Curvy track. The pendular cars "lean into" the curves, increasing passenger comfort and potentially allowing for higher speeds, though FRA rules make no allowance for this in the US. In Spain, where the Talgos were born, conventional lines will have three speed limits. For instance: Freight, 80 kph. Passenger, 100 kph. Talgo, 120 kph.
(2) "Bad" track. Independent wheel suspension makes the trains less subject to a rough ride at high speed. Note that this effect apparently vanishes at low speed on jointed rail, and may even be negative.
(3) Routes where Amtrak can gain a benefit from a lightweight train that inflicts minimal damage on the track, and so lessens maintenance costs at equivalent speeds. So, routes where Amtrak owns its own track, or routes where the operating railroad charges by per-axle weight — I don't think any railroad does this in the US.
The oh-so-obvious route for the Talgos, apart from the Cascades (to which they are well-suited) is the Vermonter, where all three conditions are met. But the high platforms of the NEC are not compatible with the tiny profile Talgo cars. The Adirondack is another, but you still have Penn Station, Croton Harmon, maybe others. So are the Carolinian, the Pennsylvanian, probably even the Lynchburger. But they all run up against those high NEC platforms. A train headed south from DC in the morning, back in the evening? That would make some sense (especially on the Crescent route), but I don't know if there is space for a "Talgo House" in DC, and you lose the "track damage" benefit.
Others have mentioned the California coast ("Coast Daylight"), and, yes, that would seem to make sense, too. Again, Amtrak gets no benefit from the light weight / low track damage angle. But 2 out of 3 ain't bad. The only other Amtrak-owned corridor is Michigan's, but the Talgos aren't on Michigan's radar. Maybe they will be, at the right price, but the state isn't rolling in dough at the moment.
In any event, flat "I" states (and southern WI might as well be one) are not the best place for these trains, and it was always a mistake to buy them for WI. Doyle's administration seems to have done so because Talgo offered to build its North American plant there, so there were a lot of good jobs on the line, too: maybe worth buying a too-fancy train, whose bells and whistles could not be exploited in the local context? Regardless, WI's voters repudiated all that, so WI wound up with the albatross (inappropriate trains) and not the benefit (the plant is shutting down, and the workers are all being fired).
The only WI application I can imagine for the Talgos now would be on a daylight schedule to Minneapolis (track northwest of Milwaukee has some curves), were Minnesota to come on board.
As other posters have pointed out, wherever you put them, some specialized maintenance is required, usually provided by Talgo itself. This maintenance could have been performed in the factory where the trains were built, but any new purchaser (other than the Pac NW, which already has what it needs) would need to build a facility, at significant cost.
So, the only likely buyers are the Pac NW states (but which just bought two, and whose host railroads are hostile to additional trains), or some other place meeting the above criteria, and in the market for those two and several more. Two trains sets aren't worth much as a stand-alone purchase.
For all that, the chances are good that what you suggest is exactly what will happen. Some state with a pro-rail governor and legislature will offer WI $30 million for the $74 million sets, leaving the headroom needed to put $20 million into a maintenance facility. Everyone wins, except WI, but which is out "only" half of what it has spent.
Wherever they go, let's hope that they are used properly, enjoy a long service life, and benefit many people! They are clever trains.
Here is how Ron Adams, WisDOT Railroads & Harbors Section Chief explained the new ADA platform rules (or how WisDOT interprets them at this point):
In areas where required by freight traffic, platforms must be 8" ATR (Above the Top of the Rail). Where freight traffic does not interfere, platforms must be level with the lowest-profile passenger equipment operating on that line. In single-level-only territory, this means 48" ATR (high-level platforms). Elsewhere, this means 15" ATR (level with Superliner lower levels).
As far as Milwaukee, this looks to mean that the side platform directly attached to the station building will need to be 15" ATR, as that track is not generally used for freight traffic (at least according to WisDOT and FRA), and the two island platforms will need to be 8" ATR.
The tilting aspect of the Talgos would have been beneficial along the Mississippi River, as it would have allowed for higher average speeds along this rather curve-laden portion of line. The Emipre Builder seldom gets beyond 60 mph along this section of the route. Other posters are correct regarding the portion in Wisconsin, as those sections are rather straight.
- Status
