The Consists of 1978-1979

[spacecadet]

I don't think this practice lasted too long, but Amtrak for a while produced an "Annual" that basically ran down all of their trains and equipment. It was like a railfanning bible of the time.

Anyway, I was looking at my 1978-79 Annual and it's pretty interesting looking at some of the typical consists of the day and then thinking about those same trains now. (Not to even mention the trains that no longer exist.) Here are a few 1978 consists:

The Empire Builder

SDP-40

SDP-40

mail

mail

baggage-dorm

coach

dome-coach

coach

dome-coach

coach

dome-lounge

diner

dome-sleeper

sleeper

sleeper

mail

Amtrak ran four domes on this train just like GN did.

The Southwest Limited (aka the Southwest Chief)

SDP-40

SDP-40

SDP-40

baggage

baggage-dorm

hi-level coach

hi-level coach

hi-level coach

hi-level coach

hi-level lounge

hi-level diner

hi-level coach

sleeper

dome lounge

sleeper

sleeper

sleeper

mail

The North Coast Hiawatha

SDP-40

SDP-40

mail-express

mail

baggage

coach

coach

dome-coach

coach

coach

dome-dorm-lounge

diner

sleeper

sleeper

These days, the Hiawathas are run with four or so Horizon coaches, a P-42 and a cabbage. Though to be fair, in 1978 the North Coast Hiawatha ran from Chicago to Seattle - a bit longer of a trip than the current Chicago-Milwaukee run!

The Coast Starlight

SDP-40

SDP-40

baggage

baggage-dorm

coach

coach

coach

coach

counter diner

coach

coach

coach

coach

coach

coach

dome lounge

diner

sleeper

sleeper

sleeper

No parlor car, but two diners and a dome lounge.

The Cardinal

P-30

mail

mail-baggage

Amcoach

Amdinette

Amcoach

That's it!! If you wanted luxury to Chicago, you took the Broadway Limited or Lake Shore Limited.

Just for comparison, though I know it no longer exists:

The Broadway Limited

E-8

E-8

E-8

mail-baggage

mail-baggage

coach

coach

coach

slumbercoach

slumbercoach

coach

coach

coach

coach

pub(!)

diner

kitchen-dorm

sleeper-lounge

sleeper

sleeper

sleeper

The diner-kitchen were probably ex-NYC (did PRR ever run these?). Also note two lounges on this train, one of which was a pub.

The LSL had a similar consist but was shorter - only one slumbercoach, a couple less sleepers and no pub (though it did have a lounge).

The Silver Star

SDP-40

SDP-40

mail

baggage-dorm

sleeper

sleeper-lounge

coach

coach

coach

coach

coach

pub

diner

diner (yes, two in tandem)

coach

coach

coach

coach

coach

sleeper

The San Diegans

F-40

Ambaggage

Amcoach

Amcoach

Amdinette

Amcoach

Amcoach

Amcafe

Amcoach

Amcoach

Two food service cars even in a relatively short all-Amfleet train! To be fair, this was the longest of three train sets. The other two only had a cafe.

The Southern Crescent

GG-1

coach

coach

coach

sleeper

sleeper

sleeper

coach

coach

parlor-lounge

I believe this might have been right around the time that Southern handed over the Crescent to Amtrak, so they still have it listed as only a NYC-WAS train in the Annual and include it in the Northeast Corridor section. Also, Southern would have slapped a dome and at least one more sleeper or coach on the end at WAS (not sure which), plus changing the engines, so that consist isn't totally complete. I remember that parlor-lounge - it had a baby grand piano and everything.

Interestingly, all of the NEC trains other than the metroliners (which were specifically defined by the equipment back then) were named trains. Today these would just be the numbered northeast regionals.

 

[The Metropolitan]

Very interesting - Thanks for sharing...

I always find it interesting that Amtrak had its best ridership ever in 2008, yet the LD trains are about half the size of some of these, and in some cases (like the Broadway), they are extinct.

I realize much of the difference comes in corridor ridership that today makes up a bigger percentage of the ridership, but wow, imagine how many people would occupy a sold-out Starlight, Broadway, or Silver Star on these consist lists!

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Very interesting - Thanks for sharing...
I always find it interesting that Amtrak had its best ridership ever in 2008, yet the LD trains are about half the size of some of these, and in some cases (like the Broadway), they are extinct.

I realize much of the difference comes in corridor ridership that today makes up a bigger percentage of the ridership, but wow, imagine how many people would occupy a sold-out Starlight, Broadway, or Silver Star on these consist lists!

Half the size? Hmm.. how full were these trains back then?

 

[The Metropolitan]

That's what I'm curious of - Both the Silver Star and Starlight show 10 coaches. By my rough math, these could accomodate 600 people alone. Add in the sleepers and we're talking over 800 passengers aboard a sold out train! That's a lot of mouths to feed!

I'm assuming there was no consist for the National Limited?

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I don't think this practice lasted too long, but Amtrak for a while produced an "Annual" that basically ran down all of their trains and equipment. It was like a railfanning bible of the time.
Anyway, I was looking at my 1978-79 Annual and it's pretty interesting looking at some of the typical consists of the day and then thinking about those same trains now. (Not to even mention the trains that no longer exist.) Here are a few 1978 consists:

The Empire Builder

SDP-40

SDP-40

mail

mail

baggage-dorm

coach

dome-coach

coach

dome-coach

coach

dome-lounge

diner

dome-sleeper

sleeper

sleeper

mail

Amtrak ran four domes on this train just like GN did.

The Southwest Limited (aka the Southwest Chief)

SDP-40

SDP-40

SDP-40

baggage

baggage-dorm

hi-level coach

hi-level coach

hi-level coach

hi-level coach

hi-level lounge

hi-level diner

hi-level coach

sleeper

dome lounge

sleeper

sleeper

sleeper

mail

The North Coast Hiawatha

SDP-40

SDP-40

mail-express

mail

baggage

coach

coach

dome-coach

coach

coach

dome-dorm-lounge

diner

sleeper

sleeper

These days, the Hiawathas are run with four or so Horizon coaches, a P-42 and a cabbage. Though to be fair, in 1978 the North Coast Hiawatha ran from Chicago to Seattle - a bit longer of a trip than the current Chicago-Milwaukee run!

The Coast Starlight

SDP-40

SDP-40

baggage

baggage-dorm

coach

coach

coach

coach

counter diner

coach

coach

coach

coach

coach

coach

dome lounge

diner

sleeper

sleeper

sleeper

No parlor car, but two diners and a dome lounge.

The Cardinal

P-30

mail

mail-baggage

Amcoach

Amdinette

Amcoach

That's it!! If you wanted luxury to Chicago, you took the Broadway Limited or Lake Shore Limited.

Just for comparison, though I know it no longer exists:

The Broadway Limited

E-8

E-8

E-8

mail-baggage

mail-baggage

coach

coach

coach

slumbercoach

slumbercoach

coach

coach

coach

coach

pub(!)

diner

kitchen-dorm

sleeper-lounge

sleeper

sleeper

sleeper

The diner-kitchen were probably ex-NYC (did PRR ever run these?). Also note two lounges on this train, one of which was a pub.

The LSL had a similar consist but was shorter - only one slumbercoach, a couple less sleepers and no pub (though it did have a lounge).

The Silver Star

SDP-40

SDP-40

mail

baggage-dorm

sleeper

sleeper-lounge

coach

coach

coach

coach

coach

pub

diner

diner (yes, two in tandem)

coach

coach

coach

coach

coach

sleeper

The San Diegans

F-40

Ambaggage

Amcoach

Amcoach

Amdinette

Amcoach

Amcoach

Amcafe

Amcoach

Amcoach

Two food service cars even in a relatively short all-Amfleet train! To be fair, this was the longest of three train sets. The other two only had a cafe.

The Southern Crescent

GG-1

coach

coach

coach

sleeper

sleeper

sleeper

coach

coach

parlor-lounge

I believe this might have been right around the time that Southern handed over the Crescent to Amtrak, so they still have it listed as only a NYC-WAS train in the Annual and include it in the Northeast Corridor section. Also, Southern would have slapped a dome and at least one more sleeper or coach on the end at WAS (not sure which), plus changing the engines, so that consist isn't totally complete. I remember that parlor-lounge - it had a baby grand piano and everything.

Interestingly, all of the NEC trains other than the metroliners (which were specifically defined by the equipment back then) were named trains. Today these would just be the numbered northeast regionals.

About the Broadway Limited. That kitchen dorm probably was a PRR car. PRR had twin unit diners on some trains and that might be what these are. Certainly the pre-Amtrak Broadway had them.

As you indicate I think that Crescent consist shown is purely the N.E. version. Both sleepers and coaches probably were added southbound at Washington--as well as a diner and a tavern-lounge car.

As to the dome car, it only ran for a few years and only ran from Atlanta to New Orleans. The dome was on top of a parlor car, not a lounge or a coach.

I think the parlor lounge shown there just ran as a N.E. car from NYC to WAS. That was very common in the N.E.corrider before today's business class, Acela first class, etc concepts.

 

[spacecadet]

That's what I'm curious of - Both the Silver Star and Starlight show 10 coaches. By my rough math, these could accomodate 600 people alone. Add in the sleepers and we're talking over 800 passengers aboard a sold out train! That's a lot of mouths to feed!
I'm assuming there was no consist for the National Limited?

I just didn't include it because it's one of the many trains in this book that no longer exist, and I'm most interested in thinking about the same trains then and now. (I wish I had actual consists of the modern versions that I could put side by side with the old ones.) I also just didn't want the post to get too long. But I'm happy to list any consist anyone's curious about from that year.

Here is the National Limited in 1978:

E-8

E-8

mail

mail-baggage

sleeper

sleeper

diner-lounge

coach

coach

coach

coach

coach

baggage

It also says that from NYC-HAR, it would have been pulled by a GG1.

As to the capacity, remember that the single-level trains had a lot less capacity than Superliners. The hi-level trains were similar to Superliners, though, so those are the really impressive trains to me. Still, also remember that some of these old coaches had a ridiculous amount of legroom (and so less capacity per car - some only 44).

Also, there may have been fewer cars during non-peak seasons. For the Coast Starlight, the capacity during non-peak seasons is listed at 264 coach, 44 first class (they still called it first class back then!), and 464 coach, 66 first class during peak. For the Silver Star, it's 230 coach/22 first class off-peak, 230 coach, 34 first class peak. (I know, something seems off about that Silver Star peak number.)

I rode a lot in the 1970's and early 1980's and I do remember the trains being pretty well full. Although obviously not all of them were or some wouldn't have been cut. All of the routes I regularly rode still exist *except* the Broadway Limited, which was a victim more of budget and equipment shortages than a lack of ridership (at least at the beginning, though I think people started riding it less when it lost its dining car, and then obviously the change to the Three Rivers really killed it). So I probably rode the busier routes and that's obviously colored my memories of how crowded the trains were. They certainly weren't *always* crowded, even on the busiest routes.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

That's what I'm curious of - Both the Silver Star and Starlight show 10 coaches. By my rough math, these could accomodate 600 people alone. Add in the sleepers and we're talking over 800 passengers aboard a sold out train! That's a lot of mouths to feed!
I'm assuming there was no consist for the National Limited?

Coaches from that era usually handled either 44, 48 or 52 passengers. So that cuts it down a lot.Many sleepers handled 22 people.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Prior to the name change, the "Super Chief/El Captain" ran:

F45

F45 (Engines could be pretty interesting, actually, the variance was high)

Mail (CHI-LAX)

baggage (CHI-LAX)

baggage-dorm (CHI-LAX)

hi-level coach (CHI-LAX)

hi-level coach (CHI-LAX)

hi-level coach (CHI-LAX)

hi-level lounge (CHI-LAX)

hi-level diner (CHI-LAX)

hi-level coach (CHI-LAX)

hi-level coach (CHI-LAX)

hi-level coach (CHI-LAX)

dome lounge (CHI-LAX) - First Class Only

diner (CHI-LAX) - First Class Only

sleeper (CHI-LAX)

sleeper (CHI-LAX)

sleeper (CHI-LAX)

sleeper (CHI-LAX)

sleeper (NYP-LAX via National Limited)

coach (NYP-LAX via National Limited)

The dropping of the first-class diner and lounge (which did go away, too) made Santa Fe require Amtrak to change the train's name. To a great extent, the Super Chief, as an all-pullman train, ran well into Amtrak under the same standards that Santa Fe applied, and by Santa Fe. You could say that three grand trains survived into Amtrak. The Super Chief, the Southern Crescent, and the Rio Grande Zephyr.

 

[Shawn]

I can see restricting a dome lounge to first class, but restricting a diner? Hmmm, there's a big loss of revenue there. And that was back when the food was actually good on a train!

 

[Larry H.]

I can see restricting a dome lounge to first class, but restricting a diner? Hmmm, there's a big loss of revenue there. And that was back when the food was actually good on a train!

Its not hard to see why, in the first place first class sleeper fare used to get you exclusive use of a lounge and in many cases a diner also.. Not much for your money today.. Also if you look at 7 coaches and 5 sleepers you quickly realize that amtrak spends not untill 11 p.m. as we did on the Capitol L and others have also reported, thats with two sleepers.. Where do you think five sleepers and seven coaches would eat? Obviously they did a lot of things much better, and yes you got real food.

I rode the National Limited.. A real dog, and always wondered why the trains to chicago got such special treatment and the rest of us got nothing in comparison. It went about 40 miles an hour which helped kill it, but it also was one of the first long distance trains to end up with no real lounge and personally even then I hated forking out money to sit at a card table next to the diners. I also agree that if they were running those consist today the amount of revenue would be much higher. Too many sold out days anymore, that really gives a false idea of what the demand is. I have always hated the major reduction in sleepers that amtrak has forced on us.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I can see restricting a dome lounge to first class, but restricting a diner? Hmmm, there's a big loss of revenue there. And that was back when the food was actually good on a train!

Notice that train carries two diners. A hi-level Diner for the coach passengers and a single level diner for the sleeper passengers.

That was, in fact, two trains. The 'El Captain' was the hi-level, and the sleepers were the 'Super Chief'

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I can see restricting a dome lounge to first class, but restricting a diner? Hmmm, there's a big loss of revenue there. And that was back when the food was actually good on a train!

Notice that train carries two diners. A hi-level Diner for the coach passengers and a single level diner for the sleeper passengers.

That was, in fact, two trains. The 'El Captain' was the hi-level, and the sleepers were the 'Super Chief'

All very true.In fact the further back you go, esp. to pre-Amtrak. The Super and the Cap really were separate trains. It was for budget reasons that the Santa Fe began combining during off seasons. Amtrak continued that custom, operating them as one train.

But they were both fine trains, that is for sure. Great Fred Harvey meals.

When Santa Fe began sometimes operating them together they had to give them both the same schedule. On days they would need to be separate, than one would operate as a second section to the other.

But before those days came about their schedules did differ by a few hours.

I have an embarrasing memory of one of my trips on the Super Chief. At that time it left LAX about 7 p.m.

I had checked out of my hotel that morning and had spent the better part of the day at Marineland of the Pacific (not sure if that still exits) delighting in being splashed by the whales and dolphins.

Stepped on board one of the classiest trains in the nation smelling like the Pacific Ocean. And of course it was time for dinner. Had to do the best I could with wash cloth, etc. So everything was NOT all that perfect back in the "good old days"--the relative lack of showers for one thing.

 

[NativeSon5859]

This is a great post. Very interesting to see the differences between then and now. My how times have changed.

Do you happen to have the consists for the Sunset Limited and/or City of New Orleans around that time as well?

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

This is a great post. Very interesting to see the differences between then and now. My how times have changed.
Do you happen to have the consists for the Sunset Limited and/or City of New Orleans around that time as well?

The City of New Orleans was probably still called the Panama Limited at that time.

Historically the City of New Orleans was a very fast day train (quite different from the one portrayed in the song) from CHI to NOL, like about 7 a.m. to about 11 p.m. It began life in 1941 as a diesel powered streamliner, when that was a novelty.

The very fast first class overnight train was called the Panama Limited. It was all sleeper for much of its life.Its schedule was about 5 p.m. to 9 a.m. in each direction. It was pretty much the equal of the 20th Century Limited, the Broadway Limited or the Super Chief.

Through the years the Panama's schedule became slower and it added coaches. That is the train Amtrak inherited.

There were lesser trains on the route, of course. Some of them might have better inspired the song, especially the need to"change cars at Memphis, TN".

At some time, possibly because of the popularity of the song, the then-mayor of NOL insisted that Amtrak change the name of the Panama Limited to the City of New Orleans.

And so it was done.

 

[NativeSon5859]

This is a great post. Very interesting to see the differences between then and now. My how times have changed.
Do you happen to have the consists for the Sunset Limited and/or City of New Orleans around that time as well?

The City of New Orleans was probably still called the Panama Limited at that time.

Historically the City of New Orleans was a very fast day train (quite different from the one portrayed in the song) from CHI to NOL, like about 7 a.m. to about 11 p.m. It began life in 1941 as a diesel powered streamliner, when that was a novelty.

The very fast first class overnight train was called the Panama Limited. It was all sleeper for much of its life.Its schedule was about 5 p.m. to 9 a.m. in each direction. It was pretty much the equal of the 20th Century Limited, the Broadway Limited or the Super Chief.

Through the years the Panama's schedule became slower and it added coaches. That is the train Amtrak inherited.

There were lesser trains on the route, of course. Some of them might have better inspired the song, especially the need to"change cars at Memphis, TN".

At some time, possibly because of the popularity of the song, the then-mayor of NOL insisted that Amtrak change the name of the Panama Limited to the City of New Orleans.

And so it was done.

That's right...Panama Limited then. My grandpa used to ride it all the time and he mentioned enjoying the "King's Dinner" on the train. Thanks for reminding me!

 

[Rumpled]

I had checked out of my hotel that morning and had spent the better part of the day at Marineland of the Pacific (not sure if that still exits) delighting in being splashed by the whales and dolphins.

Long gone, closed up in 1987.

Development has proceeded very slowly, with only real progress in the last couple of years.

 

[spacecadet]

This is a great post. Very interesting to see the differences between then and now. My how times have changed.
Do you happen to have the consists for the Sunset Limited and/or City of New Orleans around that time as well?

Sunset Limited

SDP-40

SDP-40

baggage

hi-level coach

hi-level coach

hi-level coach

hi-level coach

coach

lounge dorm

diner

sleeper

sleeper

sleeper

dome-sleeper

Panama Limited

P-30

baggage

Amcoach

Amcoach

Amcoach

Amdinette

Amcoach

Amcoach

Doesn't really match the romantic description of this train in a couple of the replies so far

btw, did Amtrak used to run cross-country through-train sleepers? Maybe it says somewhere in this book but I haven't seen it. A few of the consists seem to imply that - for example there's an asterisk next to one of the sleepers on the Sunset Limited that says "New York sleeper". On the BL there are a couple of "Los Angeles sleepers".

 

[NativeSon5859]

This is a great post. Very interesting to see the differences between then and now. My how times have changed.
Do you happen to have the consists for the Sunset Limited and/or City of New Orleans around that time as well?

Sunset Limited

SDP-40

SDP-40

baggage

hi-level coach

hi-level coach

hi-level coach

hi-level coach

coach

lounge dorm

diner

sleeper

sleeper

sleeper

dome-sleeper

Panama Limited

P-30

baggage

Amcoach

Amcoach

Amcoach

Amdinette

Amcoach

Amcoach

Doesn't really match the romantic description of this train in a couple of the replies so far

btw, did Amtrak used to run cross-country through-train sleepers? Maybe it says somewhere in this book but I haven't seen it. A few of the consists seem to imply that - for example there's an asterisk next to one of the sleepers on the Sunset Limited that says "New York sleeper". On the BL there are a couple of "Los Angeles sleepers".

Amtrak used to have through Sleeping car service between NY-LAX via the Crescent/Sunset Ltd.

And no...the Panama by then I guess was a shell of its former self.

 

[George Harris]

Panama LimitedP-30

baggage

Amcoach

Amcoach

Amcoach

Amdinette

Amcoach

Amcoach

What we are looking at here was the period when Amtrak was converting from steam heat to electric heat and the sleepers were all "heritage" cars. Therefore, there was a while that there were not enough electric heat equipped sleepers to go around, so a train that was famed for being all-Pullman became all coach for a while. If the Illinois Central management of the time had any concern at all for their heritage, they would have yanked the permission to use the name. It is also worth noting that it was common for the train to be 4 to 6 hours late in that time period.

 

[spacecadet]

What we are looking at here was the period when Amtrak was converting from steam heat to electric heat and the sleepers were all "heritage" cars. Therefore, there was a while that there were not enough electric heat equipped sleepers to go around, so a train that was famed for being all-Pullman became all coach for a while. If the Illinois Central management of the time had any concern at all for their heritage, they would have yanked the permission to use the name.

The story about the train (each train has a story in this book, not just a consist) does say that all-electric sleepers are promised "as soon as possible". So you're right about that.

It does also say, though, that the train Amtrak took over was down to just one first class car and was "anything but posh". It had apparently been past its glory days already at that point.

Also, the train was originally called the CONO in Amtrak service, but was renamed after a derailment in which 11 were killed.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

What we are looking at here was the period when Amtrak was converting from steam heat to electric heat and the sleepers were all "heritage" cars. Therefore, there was a while that there were not enough electric heat equipped sleepers to go around, so a train that was famed for being all-Pullman became all coach for a while. If the Illinois Central management of the time had any concern at all for their heritage, they would have yanked the permission to use the name.

The story about the train (each train has a story in this book, not just a consist) does say that all-electric sleepers are promised "as soon as possible". So you're right about that.

It does also say, though, that the train Amtrak took over was down to just one first class car and was "anything but posh". It had apparently been past its glory days already at that point.

Also, the train was originally called the CONO in Amtrak service, but was renamed after a derailment in which 11 were killed.

Yes, many trains took a sharp decline before Amtrak came around. Things were pitiful, thus the need for a new national system. Trains which had been, say, 15 cars long were running with two cars, etc,ec. The Panama was no exception, great and grand though it had been for decades even before the streamliner/diesel era.

I do remember the very bad wreck, much has been written about it. However, it did not result in any name change. I have the original Amtrak timetables from 1971 and most forward and they all call it the Panama Limited. The last one to do so is a summer 1980 timetable. I do not have all my timetables in order but I see one April 26 through Aug 1, 1981 which shows the name changed to City of New Orleans.

So the name change from Panama Limited to City of New Orleans happened sometime between late 1980 and early 1981.

 

[Steve4031]

This post brought back memories. This was when I first started to travel alot by train, and become a rail fan. I was about 12 years old. I remember the coast starlight from a trip out west with my dad. That dome lounge was a full length dome, and I remember the lunch counter car. That was a great train to walk through.

I also remember the Panama Limited with Amfleet equipment. I would ride down on the Illini on Friday after school from Chicago to Rantoul, and I would visit my grandparents who lived in Paxton. At first I caught the Shawnee, an evening train back from Rantoul on Sundays. But after a few unpleasant church going experiences with my step grandmother, I opted for the Panama Limited. Knowing that nobody knew that both the Panama and the Shawnee ran with Amfleet, I opted out of church by choosing the Panama as my mode of return to Chicago, stating that I liked the equipment on that train better. Of course, it was always late. One time I went into the station to check on the train status and came back and reported that it was just leaving Effingham. My step grandmother grumbled, "That Amtrak! Now were going to miss church again." I remember looking down the track at the signals with a smirk, thinking, "exactly." Thankfully, there was no Julie then, or else I might have had to submit to Church and to that amdinette food.

When I was in high school, Amtrak relaunched this service as the City of New Orleans with dome cars and a full service diner. That was a nice train, and I always worked my schedule to ride in those heritage fleet coaches. One time I remember getting off the train in Rantoul, and being the only passenger. I thought I was pretty important having the train stop just for me. About as soon as my foot left the step box, the conductor was putting back in the vestibule and calling to the engineer, "highball rantoul 59." The train was gone before we even got in the car.

 

[spacecadet]

I do remember the very bad wreck, much has been written about it. However, it did not result in any name change. I have the original Amtrak timetables from 1971 and most forward and they all call it the Panama Limited. The last one to do so is a summer 1980 timetable. I do not have all my timetables in order but I see one April 26 through Aug 1, 1981 which shows the name changed to City of New Orleans.
So the name change from Panama Limited to City of New Orleans happened sometime between late 1980 and early 1981.

I think one of us is confusing something:

"The exalted name Panama Limited wasn't included in the first Amtrak lexicon as the corporation decided on the Illinois Central Gulf's day train to New Orleans - the City of New Orleans - to connect America's middle section. It was just as well as the name Panama Limited ranked with the Twentieth Century Limited and Broadway Limited as a vehicle of the poshest of the posh, all first class and extra fare. The train that remained when Amtrak took charge was anything but posh, down to one first class car and certainly not extra fare.

Amtrak's first trains on the route left their respective cities early in the morning and arrived at their destination in the wee hours of the morning - not a very happy prospect for meeting travelers. Add to this the tragic wreck shortly after its inception - 11 died in a 100+ mph derailment - and the City was replaced with an overnight schedule and the name changed to the Panama Limited 6 1/2 months later."

They definitely used the CONO name early in 1971. Check your first timetable - there's a lot of corroboration on the net about this from people who actually rode it. But in that same year, they switched it to the Panama Limited. It sounds like they then ran with that name up to 1980-81, although various sites also say they discontinued the name in 1974 (not sure what's up with that, as it's clearly not true... unless they then resurrected it by 1978).

This is from another site:

"On June 10, 1971, the City of New Orleans was involved in Amtrak's first fatal train wreck; a locked axle on one of the locomotives caused the train to derail while going 90 miles per hour about 40 miles south of Effingham, Illinois. 11 people were killed, and in terms of number of fatalities, it stood as Amtrak's worst wreck until the Colonial collision in 1987.

When Amtrak made its first major schedule change on November 14, 1971, the train was switched to an overnight schedule and changed to the Panama Limited name."

Hope that's clear. I'm just not sure about what was going on from 1974-78, but they definitely ran the CONO in 1971.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I do remember the very bad wreck, much has been written about it. However, it did not result in any name change. I have the original Amtrak timetables from 1971 and most forward and they all call it the Panama Limited. The last one to do so is a summer 1980 timetable. I do not have all my timetables in order but I see one April 26 through Aug 1, 1981 which shows the name changed to City of New Orleans.
So the name change from Panama Limited to City of New Orleans happened sometime between late 1980 and early 1981.

I think one of us is confusing something:

"The exalted name Panama Limited wasn't included in the first Amtrak lexicon as the corporation decided on the Illinois Central Gulf's day train to New Orleans - the City of New Orleans - to connect America's middle section. It was just as well as the name Panama Limited ranked with the Twentieth Century Limited and Broadway Limited as a vehicle of the poshest of the posh, all first class and extra fare. The train that remained when Amtrak took charge was anything but posh, down to one first class car and certainly not extra fare.

Amtrak's first trains on the route left their respective cities early in the morning and arrived at their destination in the wee hours of the morning - not a very happy prospect for meeting travelers. Add to this the tragic wreck shortly after its inception - 11 died in a 100+ mph derailment - and the City was replaced with an overnight schedule and the name changed to the Panama Limited 6 1/2 months later."

They definitely used the CONO name early in 1971. Check your first timetable - there's a lot of corroboration on the net about this from people who actually rode it. But in that same year, they switched it to the Panama Limited. It sounds like they then ran with that name up to 1980-81, although various sites also say they discontinued the name in 1974 (not sure what's up with that, as it's clearly not true... unless they then resurrected it by 1978).

This is from another site:

"On June 10, 1971, the City of New Orleans was involved in Amtrak's first fatal train wreck; a locked axle on one of the locomotives caused the train to derail while going 90 miles per hour about 40 miles south of Effingham, Illinois. 11 people were killed, and in terms of number of fatalities, it stood as Amtrak's worst wreck until the Colonial collision in 1987.

When Amtrak made its first major schedule change on November 14, 1971, the train was switched to an overnight schedule and changed to the Panama Limited name."

Hope that's clear. I'm just not sure about what was going on from 1974-78, but they definitely ran the CONO in 1971.

See the white flag??

I did check the very first timetable and you are correct. I had looked at a November 1971 timetable and name had already changed.

My feeble 64 year old brain was remembering the broad picture but skimming on the particularities. It is still my understanding, in addition to he increased history you have shown us, that the mayor of NOL did insist on the name change from PL to CONO in 1980 or so

Anyway, you got me,space cadet!!

 

[spacecadet]

My feeble 64 year old brain was remembering the broad picture but skimming on the particularities. It is still my understanding, in addition to he increased history you have shown us, that the mayor of NOL did insist on the name change from PL to CONO in 1980 or so

Totally possible - I really don't know anything about that beyond what I've read on wikipedia and sites like that of questionable trustworthiness. They all talk about an Arlo Guthrie song being the impetus, which surely would have been a minor consideration if anything.

I was wrong about one thing - this Annual that I have is *not* an official Amtrak book, it even says right on the first page "not an official Amtrak publication". It's from some people called the "National Railway Archives", if I remember right, so it is possible that some of their info might not be 100% accurate too - though the book is so detailed and so well-sourced, including loads of first-party Amtrak stuff like car diagrams (for the not-yet released Superliners, even), full equipment rosters and histories, etc. that I would give 99.9% credence to anything in there. It was obviously made in cooperation with Amtrak as a PR thing, if nothing else. But I leave it open to being incorrect on something, if there really is proof otherwise.