"The Dining Car Problem"

[Tlcooper44]

I miss the Amtrak Steaks. I've also seen a group of ladies in their 70s complain about how there's nothing on the menu they can eat on ever single CZ trip I've ever been on. (Even the COVID trip where my SCA was AWOL and I was just served breakfast in the Dining Car)

There's always anecdotes that disprove the general rule. The general rule, if you look at trends in dining, is away from IHOP/Dennys and towards things like Chipotle, Applebees, etc.

I really don't think what you're saying is very true, though it probably depends on what part of the country you are in.
First of all, many people in the 20-40 age range would absolutely want real food cooked on a real grill/stove. I don't think a quality steak will ever go out of style.

I think the only generational trend that is actually noticeable is a move away from unhealthy, unsustainable food, towards healthy, whole food items. The suggestion that Applebees is in some way fulfilling that is silly at best (Chipotle maybe). I've always viewed Applebees as an antiquated, unhealthy, and endangered restaurant chain.

Also, your groupings of IHOP/Denny's and Chipotle/Applebees don't make a lot of sense since Applebees is now owned by IHOP.

I think a good bottom line is if Amtrak served fresh, sustainable, and healthy food, it would appeal widely across generational boundaries.

 

[me_little_me]

Can you actually cite any numbers in those (pre COVID) financials? Can you use actual numbers and figures from that report to back up whatever assertion you're trying to make?

Because until you do, I'm the one with the facts and you're the one with the opinions.

Nobody on this forum has the facts. As I pointed out on my first post in this thread (and not disputed by anyone), Amtrak has not revealed, nor has anyone posted, the facts needed to make any kind of determination of the costs of the Dining car and its operations based on the subject of this topic.

If you have any real facts - and that means more than the general numbers provided by Amtrak - then please reveal them. Remember, Amtrak has been accused of obfuscating costs of LD trains by assigning to much of the costs to them and those charges may have been repeated in this forum but were not created here. Amtrak has been unwilling to be forthcoming about those costs. Unlike private companies in direct competition with others who don't want to provide that info to their competitors, Amtrak is not only a government corporation but does not have any direct competition for its services.

As to any other, so called facts, if they don't relate to dining services costs and revenues, they mean nothing in the context of this thread. If anyone wants to discuss the quality of current food or current vs "traditional" food, there is a mile-long thread (along with others) where such information can be posted. As to other facts, IMHO any costs costs charged and revenue generated are relevant where a portion is allocated to the diner car itself or to the costs of providing its service (food, staff, etc).

Thanks.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I really wish we had access to the coast Starlight numbers to see how the PPC affected revenue.

I know the ppc allowed the dining car to seat more coach passengers ($$$) and it also provided sleeping car passengers with their own private bar ($$$) that seemed to do decent business.

I also believe it resulted in more sleeping car sales not only end to to end but shorter segments as well. I remember people on this forum saying they would get a sleeper for a daytime segment just because they wanted access to the PPC.

 

[Cal]

I really wish we had access to the coast Starlight numbers to see how the PPC affected revenue.

I know the ppc allowed the dining car to seat more coach passengers ($$$) and it also provided sleeping car passengers with their own private bar ($$$) that seemed to do decent business.

I also believe it resulted in more sleeping car sales not only end to to end but shorter segments as well. I remember people on this forum saying they would get a sleeper for a daytime segment just because they wanted access to the PPC.

About the PPC, did they actually restrict coach passengers from using it? Coach and business would come from the same way, right? I'm not sure how the LSA would enforce that

 

[crescent-zephyr]

About the PPC, did they actually restrict coach passengers from using it? Coach and business would come from the same way, right? I'm not sure how the LSA would enforce that

Oh very much they did. I think business class only had access to the ppc during the wine tasting if they bought a ticket for the wine tasting - otherwise it was sleeping car passengers only.

The LSA’s would usually be at the bar which was at the diner end of the car so they would see everyone who came into the car.

 

[Sidney]

Coach passengers were never allowed in the PPC. If memory serves,it was placed between the diner and the sleepers. I miss that car. Indeed,people would buy a sleeper for a day trip just to use it. It was a nice perk and another outlet for food. Nice plush chairs,a library,a movie theater downstairs. Wine and cheese tastings which were free,then a charge was added.

I read Anderson rode it once between Portland and Seattle and deemed it unnecessary and it was retired. I think that was the extent of Anderson's long distance travel on Amtrak.

 

[jis]

About the PPC, did they actually restrict coach passengers from using it? Coach and business would come from the same way, right? I'm not sure how the LSA would enforce that

Yes, non-Sleeping Car passengers were strictly excluded except for the wine tasting thing for which BC passengers had to buy a wine tasting ticket, as did the sleeping car passengers starting at some point. Checking is very easy. There is thing called the ticket that everyone is supposed to have on the train which includes information about the class of travel. If need be that was checked at the door leading from the Diner to the PPC. Anyone entering from the other end was coming from Sleepers since there no Coach at the other end of the train.

 

[zephyr17]

Yes, it was exclusively for sleeping car passengers and it was enforced (the business class for wine tasting exception noted).

The dining car folks usually quickly get a good bead on which passengers are in sleepers and don't challenge those whom they know are. That goes for any train, not just the Starlight. They aren't running Checkpoint Charlie, but unrecognized passengers will be asked.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

I mean, yes--if you pay enough, someone will come up with a higher quality good.

Yes stocking any type of food cost money, better quality will cost more, fresh food can and does go bad, so cost will increase to cover shrinkage.

However, realistically, Amtrak does not have nearly the wide array of vendors to choose from as DB does.

Probably equal or more vendors with a national reach, bigger country, so more individual vendors.

There's more Long Distance diners leaving Munich between Noon and 9 PM as there are on the entire US National Network in any given day (even in Daily Service).

The amount of trains each day is irrelevant.

Of course, there are no trains that leave Munich that cover nearly the same range without an in-station resupply as any of the LD trains in the Amtrak Network. They are all run out of Chicago and with few exceptions supplied out of Chicago. That is another challenge. How many national vendors will service two trains a day out of Denver? Two trains a day out of Kansas City? Etc.

How many vendors do you need? There are tons of them available.

That, and food quality in general is better in Western Europe and Germany. The portions are much smaller, generally, but it's still almost all exclusively reheated food.

Your thoughts, may or not be right. Reheating or fresh is based on the food.

To improve the dining options, Amtrak really has to partner with vendors that can reliably provide catering to urban train stations throughout the country as well as centered in Chicago. This is entirely doable, but Amtrak lacks the imagination and budget to make it happen.

More of a effort issue. Imagination a bit too. You want something, than put effort into getting it.

The underlying point is that people are going to take LD trains regardless of the food options. The demand for LD travel is a "captive market".

So many times I have talk to people about the food changes and there response was “no more train travel for me.”

What Amtrak has always struggled with is growing that market with more innovative soft products.

Food is not a soft product?

The other underlying point is that it doesn't matter what's on the menu, until the OBS is consistent in quality and procedure--no amount of logistical magic will make up for what is often unacceptable service.

Poorly trained and managed personnel create poor and unacceptable service. Again effort required.

Two biggest problems are the lack of attention and lack of effort. You need someone to make changes and to follow up and make sure it has been done. This requires both your attention and effort to do. Or since this is Amtrak, it requires management.

 

[jiml]

I really wish we had access to the coast Starlight numbers to see how the PPC affected revenue.

I know the ppc allowed the dining car to seat more coach passengers ($$$) and it also provided sleeping car passengers with their own private bar ($$$) that seemed to do decent business.

We certainly supplemented their bottom line on more than one occasion.

 

[njdon]

About the PPC, did they actually restrict coach passengers from using it? Coach and business would come from the same way, right? I'm not sure how the LSA would enforce that

On my trips the PPC was restricted to sleeper passengers.

 

[neroden]

What would be required in order to make LSL run more like the Night Owl?
My educated guess is because 65-67 run the majority of its time on Amtrak owned tracks, freight delays are not an issue. Do those trains encounter significant delays south of WAS? Perhaps the run time between Worcester and Albany on the Boston portion would have to be addressed as well.

Having 21st century overnight, intercity service between NYC and CHI could transform the eastern rail world.

Yep, pretty much we need to get the states to buy the tracks

Albany-NY is Amtrak & NYS controlled already.
There's a plan which NY State keeps refusing to commit to to buy the two empty trackbeds from Albany to the Pennsylvania border.
There's an Amtrak plan to get their own tracks from Chicago to Porter, Indiana.
There are proposals to reroute the LSL via the Amtrak and Michigan owned Detroit line, and proposals to acquire track from Detroit to Toledo.
I am not aware of proposals for passenger operator to get their own track from Toledo to the NY State - Pennsylvania border, but that is not generally a source of delays, and there *are* empty trackbeds along the route.

 

[neroden]

I will comment that paleo is a huge, big food trend among millennials and younger people.

An example of paleo? Steak and salads.

The people mouthing off about "what millennials want", haven't asked Millennials or even GenX. A lot of them want the steak.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

A lot of them want the steak.

And the fish entree that is actually a fish entree! (Grilled Salmon, Mahi, etc.) and an entree Salad option.

Source - I’m a millennial!

 

[Tlcooper44]

The people mouthing off about "what millennials want", haven't asked Millennials or even GenX. A lot of them want the steak.

Some people in particular in this thread love to comment in place of millennials, but hey, what else is new?
In some thinking, I'm actually believe my generation appreciates fine dining just as much as any other generation.
Dining on a train is no exception. I'm sure the simplion orient express would be a hit if it returned to America (assuming its actually affordable).

 

[me_little_me]

On my trips the PPC was restricted to sleeper passengers.

And business class passengers for certain events i.e. wine tasting - but they had to pay for it.

 

[jis]

Unfortunately attempting to create "facts" by endlessly repeating some party line BS is part of the long and hoary tradition of American Management culture and even more broadly, since the inception of the nation (and not even necessarily confined to the US). Amtrak is just doing exactly what managers do everywhere hoping that no one will notice. Not an excuse to let them off the hook, but something to keep in mind when we go looking for replacement managers. Something to avoid in the selection process. Heck, most of the Congress which essentially gives the marching instructions to the said Amtrak managers themselves have no qualms about trying to create "facts" by endlessly repeating BS either. How do we fix it?

 

[NS VIA Fan]

Are the meals reheated in Amtrak Dining Cars actually microwaved or do they use a convection oven?

I can see perhaps a hamburger or pizza.......or is it just the misconception that if it's reheated....it must have been 'nuked'?

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Are the meals reheated in Amtrak Dining Cars actually microwaved or do they use a convection oven?

I can see perhaps a hamburger or pizza.......or is it just the misconception that if it's reheated....it must have been 'nuked'?

I believe the flex meals are re-heated in an airline style convection oven.

They appear and taste like microwave meals.

I believe many of the dining car specials from the past such as the lamb shank and Beecher’s Cheese Pasta were also reheated in a convection oven and they were excellent.

 

[zephyr17]

That lamb shank was wonderful.

 

[Asher]

I haven’t traveled on Amtrak since 2014 seems like yesterday, time slips away rather quickly. All of my past LD trips have been an experience I’ve always looked forward to, including the dining car. Whatever generation type food is served is no issue, I’m pretty adaptable on that front. Edible food and courteous service has always been the norm and greatly appreciated.
If Amtrak wants to promote one and done customers they’re on the right track.

 

[OBS]

I believe the flex meals are re-heated in an airline style convection oven.

They appear and taste like microwave meals.

I believe many of the dining car specials from the past such as the lamb shank and Beecher’s Cheese Pasta were also reheated in a convection oven and they were excellent.

The flex meals are issued to the trains in those plastic dishes and then microwaved. They wouldn't stand up in convection oven, and the LSA doesn't have the time to be convection cooking and plating all those meals along with all the other duties....

 

[me_little_me]

The flex meals are issued to the trains in those plastic dishes and then microwaved. They wouldn't stand up in convection oven, and the LSA doesn't have the time to be convection cooking and plating all those meals along with all the other duties....

And putting those packaged Egg McHorribles served for breakfast would not work as my experience from flex a year and a half ago was that they were still in the plastic package when given to me.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

The flex meals are issued to the trains in those plastic dishes and then microwaved. They wouldn't stand up in convection oven, and the LSA doesn't have the time to be convection cooking and plating all those meals along with all the other duties....

Ok that actually makes more sense since they taste like microwaved frozen dinners and nothing like airline style convection oven meals.

 

[cocojacoby]

The Entrepreneurial Chef - A Radical Dining Car Concept

Moved my post to it's own thread.