The New Pullman Sleeper prices are now posted

[PRR 60]

Try this link:

Travel by Pullman

 

[ScottRu]

This is a fun conversation. JIS's concept of the "Law of Exponential Whine Intensity" was really a highlight for me!

 

[ScottRu]

And PRR60, thanks... that link works!

 

[Steve4031]

I wonder when the regular service starts in 2013. There are only a few trips available for right now.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Wow, I love the full-length dome! The problem is that IC never had any! Also, it's not the full expierience without the glory of a 15-car train with steam heating and cab units! Close, very close, though!

 

[me_little_me]

Resurrecting an old topic..

But, does anyone have some first-hand knowledge on how this venture is working out? Considering I've not heard a peep about Iowa Pacific's Pullman service in some months, I got curious. They are selling accommodations, and the next scheduled departure is from Chicago this Wednesday (Nov. 14th) enroute to New Orleans (I imagine hitched to the back of CONO.) According to the website, all choices of accommodation on that trip are still available... I'm not sure that is a good sign.

I would be hesitant about trusting their web site yet. As a lark, yesterday I tried to see what the reservation procedure was. I picked Nov 14 from Chicago. There was A type compartment for $1900+ (for 2), B type (for 2) for $0.00 then C & D for $800/$500 (if I remember correctly). So I picked B. It actually let me select it then wanted to know if I wanted electronic ticketing ($0.00) or mailed tickets ($25.00). I chose electronic. Then it took me to the pay page. At that point I decided not to enter my CC info even though the price was $0.00. What would happen if I did?

 

[Bob Dylan]

It's a nice looking O,peration for sure and IF one can Afford it, probably Worth it! Personally I think putting the $$ into trips on the Ocean and the Canadian would be more value for the dollar! The CONO and the LSL are not the best Routes Amtrak runs, wonder why they didnt use the Zephyr, Chief or the Empire Builder for these Land Cruises??

Disclaimer: Wish I could afford to ride anyway! :giggle:

 

[Devil's Advocate]

It's a nice looking O,peration for sure and IF one can Afford it, probably Worth it! Personally I think putting the $$ into trips on the Ocean and the Canadian would be more value for the dollar! The CONO and the LSL are not the best Routes Amtrak runs, wonder why they didnt use the Zephyr, Chief or the Empire Builder for these Land Cruises??

My thoughts exactly Jim!

At first glance I would think I'm among the sort of people they're trying to tempt with this level of service, but their current routing options are of no interest to me whatsoever. A big part of what makes The Canadian worth the cash outlay is that the natural beauty of the route is every bit as impressive as the hardware that plies the route. It's a great package that goes together well and helps lift your money right out of your wallet. CZ, SC, EB, or CS? You can bet I'd probably be among the first to register. But the CONO and LSL? Nah, I don't have any need or desire to ride those routes in luxury. Or coach for that matter. Just not something I'm interested in.

 

[Gratt]

It's a nice looking O,peration for sure and IF one can Afford it, probably Worth it! Personally I think putting the $$ into trips on the Ocean and the Canadian would be more value for the dollar! The CONO and the LSL are not the best Routes Amtrak runs, wonder why they didnt use the Zephyr, Chief or the Empire Builder for these Land Cruises??

Disclaimer: Wish I could afford to ride anyway! :giggle:

Agreed, I think such a premimum service would do nicely on the "out west" trains like the CZ and the SWC. The reason though I bet they picked the CONO and the LSL is that a shorter trip allows equpiment to be turned and used more often. It also makes it easier to keep food stocked and fresh on each trip.

So I guess they are betting they will get "more bang for their buck" on these routes. Though I really hope the next line will either be the Card or CZ

 

[afigg]

It's a nice looking O,peration for sure and IF one can Afford it, probably Worth it! Personally I think putting the $$ into trips on the Ocean and the Canadian would be more value for the dollar! The CONO and the LSL are not the best Routes Amtrak runs, wonder why they didnt use the Zephyr, Chief or the Empire Builder for these Land Cruises??

The single night trip costs less to operate and aims at a different travel market than a 2 night Chicago to west coast service. The prices for a 2 night trip for CHI to LAX, based on their current prices, might be in the $2K to $5K range, which is a lot. The economics of and market for a 2 night trip, for what they are doing, has to be shakier than the one night service. At the prices they are charging, they are not going after the railfan - although there will be some who book the service, but the high income and wealthy individuals who live in NYC and Chicago who will take a luxury overnight train in place of flying to CHI or NYC.

I wonder why they started with the Chicago to New Orleans route, but that may have been the easier route to start and allows them to get the kinks out of their service before starting up the more lucrative CHI-NYP run. If the market is serving cities which have a lot of people with money, Miami has that. If the Chicago to NYC service does well, I would think that a seasonal NYC/Philly/DC to Orlando & Miami Pullman service on the Silver Meteor might work. Yes, Pullman is currently operating out of Chicago, but could run a peak season operation out of NYC for interim periods.

My take on the Pullman Rail Journeys is that we should not look at it like a rail fan, but instead at where are the cities with a significant proportion of high net worth or high income individuals who have enough leisure time that they will consider taking a day to travel on the train for fun. NYC and Chicago make the cut on having enough wealthy people.

 

[TraneMan]

Are they pulled behind the CONO, or do they have their own loco?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Well, I have no idea who they're targeting right now. Wealthy people would presumably be able to charter a car wherever they wanted to go. This service won't really cater to folks like that. Rail fans may not be rich but they might be willing to save up and splurge on a luxury rail trip as we've seen in numerous trip reports on this very forum. Folks like me, who aren't rich but have little or no debt to worry about can afford these sorts of trips by controlling spending elsewhere in the budget. Once you start traveling internationally $2K - $5K doesn't sound quite so outlandish anymore. My vacation time is usually in short supply but I've still managed to take weekend trips as far away as Tokyo as it's much easier to get a Friday and Monday off than a full week. In any case my guess is that this service is intended for professionals who are curious about passenger rail and want a step up from the current sleeper class. Another theory is that this service is intended to help capture sales of folks who book late and find the Amtrak cars sold out. Unfortunately, since Amtrak apparently has no reservation agreement with the Pullman operation I'm doubtful most folks who encounter sold out trains will even be aware that this option exists. Seems like some sort of commission or revenue sharing arrangement would be highly preferable to the current scenario where folks just randomly stumble upon this. Are there any signs or other indicators at the stations where these cars operate?

 

[Blackwolf]

Agreed, I think such a premimum service would do nicely on the "out west" trains like the CZ and the SWC. The reason though I bet they picked the CONO and the LSL is that a shorter trip allows equpiment to be turned and used more often. It also makes it easier to keep food stocked and fresh on each trip.

So I guess they are betting they will get "more bang for their buck" on these routes. Though I really hope the next line will either be the Card or CZ

I generally agree with this as the main reasons for choosing this route first. The CONO is also one of Amtrak's shortest trains in terms of consist length, which also plays into the decision when adding an additional 6 heavyweight cars on the tail. As it is, Amtrak is placing a second locomotive at the point when hauling the Pullman cars, where-as the CONO would normally only run with one. When it comes time to run on the LSL, things could be interesting. I'm seeing three locomotives on the point very soon, including two dual-modes into NYP.

Maybe, if it proves to be a successful venture, we'll see the Western LD trains being added into the mix. Lets say, 5 years from now? They will need to refurbish more than the handfull of cars they have currently. Might need to have a fleet of 20 or more, which will not be cheap (or easy to pry away from current PV owners!)

Are they pulled behind the CONO, or do they have their own loco?

They have to use Amtrak for a myriad of reasons. For the foreseeable future (if they continue to exist more than a few years and then fizzle out like AOE) the Pullman service will be permanently hitched to the back of a standard Amtrak consist like a red-headed stepchild.

 

[cirdan]

I'm surprised there has been very little news on this. If IP wants to fill these cars they need to get the message out so as many people as possible find out about it. Aside from RR forums, i have not seen or heard any discussions or announcements.

 

[dlagrua]

While I applaud Pullman for offering premium passenger rail service, it seems that they are doing very little to market it. Currently the only service is from Chicago to New Orleans. Will the CONO route be enough to support future market growth? IMO the LSL route would have been a better starting point. It's often hard to get a sleeper on that train, the sleepers often sell out and high bucket fares are the norm. There is also a large amount of rich people living in Manhattan and that marketplace is loaded with high end/upscale hotels and restaurants. I wonder how the service is doing on the CONO route.

I always believed that the future of Amtrak, included replacing their sleepers (on some routes) with those owned and run by an outside service (or selling some routes off to private railroads) but there is no indication that this is even being considered. With the huge deficit and fiscal crisis that Washington has created, (and now has to deal with) anything may be possible. Time will tell. .

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

My understanding is....

The current runs on the City of New Orleans is for training. They do plan to use this route for service.

The New York and Chicago route that has not seen a train, will be the Capitol Limited route east to Pittsburgh then connect with the Pennsylvanian to New York. Still waiting on that switch in Pittsburgh. Also may change if the Lake Shore Limited flips with the Capitol Limited.

Iowa Pacific owns over 100 passenger cars in various stages of renovation or regular-use assignments.

Also one thinks the marketing for these trains is been done to non-railfan sites / ways. I think the few posting done on fan web sites by the Owners are bring the need buzz to this venture. However the main target are not foamers.

Side note did anyone see the full page Ad for the Rocky Mountaineer in the USA Today newspaper.

 

[afigg]

Well, I have no idea who they're targeting right now. Wealthy people would presumably be able to charter a car wherever they wanted to go. This service won't really cater to folks like that. Rail fans may not be rich but they might be willing to save up and splurge on a luxury rail trip as we've seen in numerous trip reports on this very forum. Folks like me, who aren't rich but have little or no debt to worry about can afford these sorts of trips by controlling spending elsewhere in the budget. Once you start traveling internationally $2K - $5K doesn't sound quite so outlandish anymore. My vacation time is usually in short supply but I've still managed to take weekend trips as far away as Tokyo as it's much easier to get a Friday and Monday off than a full week. In any case my guess is that this service is intended for professionals who are curious about passenger rail and want a step up from the current sleeper class. Another theory is that this service is intended to help capture sales of folks who book late and find the Amtrak cars sold out. Unfortunately, since Amtrak apparently has no reservation agreement with the Pullman operation I'm doubtful most folks who encounter sold out trains will even be aware that this option exists. Seems like some sort of commission or revenue sharing arrangement would be highly preferable to the current scenario where folks just randomly stumble upon this. Are there any signs or other indicators at the stations where these cars operate?

I was not writing about the really wealthy people who would charter a private biz jet to travel between NYC and CHI. Or own their own biz jet. The market for the Pullman are the higher income and comfortably off types who can afford to pay $2K or $4K without worrying about it. NYC has more millionaires than any other place in the US by a respectable margin as I recall.

With the high prices and premium service, I don't see Pullman getting that much business from people switching because the LSL or CONO is sold out. I would expect that ads for Pullman will be on the Amtrak website once the Pullman service is fully operational. Whether Pullman would pay for a link option in the Amtrak reservation system when someone enters CHI<->NYP and CHI<->NOL for the dates that the Pullman cars are running, don't know. The Pullman service is still in the early stages, we will find out more as it rolls out. Then we will find out whether it can succeed or not over the next year or so.

I expect there will be changes in how they operate such as selling rooms to/from intermediate stops on the routes, Memphis for CONO. The CHI-NYP situation is more complex because Pullman is apparently looking at running on both the LSL and CL/Pennsylvanian combo. If the Three Rivers or a Broadway Limited were still running, I think that would be the preferred route for the Pullman service because they could sell rooms to/from NYC, Philly, and perhaps Pittsburgh. There are a lot of well off people in the Philadelphia area.

 

[AlanB]

I always believed that the future of Amtrak, included replacing their sleepers (on some routes) with those owned and run by an outside service (or selling some routes off to private railroads) but there is no indication that this is even being considered. With the huge deficit and fiscal crisis that Washington has created, (and now has to deal with) anything may be possible. Time will tell. .

Why would Amtrak or smart Government ever consider such an idea when it would increase the loss for Amtrak by doing so?

As NARP showed in their study from a few years ago, that the cost per passenger mile for Amtrak is $0.1870; if Amtrak takes away the sleepers the cost for those in coach was $0.1888 per passenger mile. In other words, getting rid of the sleepers would increase the needed subsidies for those in coach.

And the loss of the sleepers would probably also mean the loss of the dining car, which might decrease ridership in coach and further increase the subsidy.

 

[cirdan]

I was not writing about the really wealthy people who would charter a private biz jet to travel between NYC and CHI. Or own their own biz jet. The market for the Pullman are the higher income and comfortably off types who can afford to pay $2K or $4K without worrying about it. NYC has more millionaires than any other place in the US by a respectable margin as I recall.

Just as a matter of interest, are there still many people who own and travel in their own PV?

That probably compares to a private jet cost-wise, but would take a more railroad-inclined person.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Just as a matter of interest, are there still many people who own and travel in their own PV? That probably compares to a private jet cost-wise, but would take a more railroad-inclined person.

Private varnish is similar in cost to a nice house. A private jet is similar in cost to DOZENS of nice houses.

 

[dlagrua]

In reply to AlanB's rebuttal:

Why would Amtrak or smart Government ever consider such an idea when it would increase the loss for Amtrak by doing so?

>>>>Since when has government become smart?

As NARP showed in their study from a few years ago, that the cost per passenger mile for Amtrak is $0.1870; if Amtrak takes away the sleepers the cost for those in coach was $0.1888 per passenger mile. In other words, getting rid of the sleepers would increase the needed subsidies for those in coach.

>>>>>>Very true. I am aware of these cost figures and do not dispute them. If a private concern took over the sleepers they would have to pay Amtrak for the privilege to do so. Like all other cutthroat businesses these days, Amtrak could then downsize and cut costs.

And the loss of the sleepers would probably also mean the loss of the dining car, which might decrease ridership in coach and further increase the subsidy.

>>>>>>> True again, but with all of the Amtrak haters in Washington and being faced with an acute fiscal crisis who knows what will be proposed, cut or sold off. We have already heard some politic ans imply that de-funding Amtrak is a primary objective to eliminating the US deficit.. Some politic ans either believe this or that government has no business in passenger rail. Point is that logic doesn't seem to apply.

Like yourself (and many others here) I am a proponent of Amtrak but I feel very uneasy with the direction that Washington may take in the next few years .. I hope that for the good of the American people, Amtrak continues to grow or at the very least is maintained as it is. Admittedly, the scenarios presented here are far fetched but when the fiscal cliff approaches, anything may be possible. You appear to disagree and I hope that you are correct, but take a look at what is now happening at the US Post office for a preview of things to come. Am I really that far off the mark????

 

[jis]

My understanding is....

The current runs on the City of New Orleans is for training. They do plan to use this route for service.

The New York and Chicago route that has not seen a train, will be the Capitol Limited route east to Pittsburgh then connect with the Pennsylvanian to New York. Still waiting on that switch in Pittsburgh. Also may change if the Lake Shore Limited flips with the Capitol Limited.

No additional switch is needed in Pittsburgh to manage the car shuffling needed in the eastbound direction. The crossover that we hear about is needed for doing the same shuffle in reverse in the westbound direction. So the eastbound can already be run via Pittsburgh without any new crossover construction. Indeed I believe their preference might be to run it westbound via Pittsburgh too, if they could, but currently they can't.

As for using the LSL eastbound .... on the eastbound tacked onto the LSL they'd have a somewhat serious problem at Penn Station with the tail of the train sticking out and fouling part of the A Interlocking ladder blocking access to tracks 1 through 4 completely, which would be entirely unacceptable. For the westbound the tail would still foul part of the interlocking in the east but much less severe consequences, since that will not make tracks 1 through 4 inaccessible any more than they already are from that end.

There really is no track available at Penn Station that is accessible from the Empire Connection that can hold 12 or 13 cars plus an engine or two AFAICT.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

My understanding is....

The current runs on the City of New Orleans is for training. They do plan to use this route for service.

The New York and Chicago route that has not seen a train, will be the Capitol Limited route east to Pittsburgh then connect with the Pennsylvanian to New York. Still waiting on that switch in Pittsburgh. Also may change if the Lake Shore Limited flips with the Capitol Limited.

No additional switch is needed in Pittsburgh to manage the car shuffling needed in the eastbound direction. The crossover that we hear about is needed for doing the same shuffle in reverse in the westbound direction. That is why only the eastbound is via Pittsburgh.

As for using the LSL eastbound .... on the eastbound tacked onto the LSL they'd have a somewhat serious problem at Penn Station with the tail of the train sticking out and fouling part of the A Interlocking ladder blocking access to tracks 1 through 4 completely, which would be entirely unacceptable. For the westbound the tail would still foul part of the interlocking in the east but much less severe consequences, since that will not make tracks 1 through 4 inaccessible any more than they already are from that end.

There really is no track available at Penn Station that is accessible from the Empire Connection that can hold 12 or 13 cars plus and engine or two AFAICT.

This is the most helpful post I've seen in this topic. Thank you jis. That clears a lot up.

 

[AlanB]

There really is no track available at Penn Station that is accessible from the Empire Connection that can hold 12 or 13 cars plus an engine or two AFAICT.

Yeah, tracks 7 & 8, with 8 being the last track that can still get to the Empire connection, can both support a 13 car train. But that leaves no room for an engine. And maybe, just maybe, track 8 could support 1 car/engine hanging off the platform without fowling any interlocking if they hung half the engine off at one end and half a car off the other end.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I was not writing about the really wealthy people who would charter a private biz jet to travel between NYC and CHI. Or own their own biz jet.

Neither was I. Private jets, private yachts, and exotic sports and luxury cars are mainstream purchases among wealthy individuals. While private varnish is a rarther sparse secondary market of limited appeal, even among the extremely wealthy. For example, who is still making brand new private rail cars the same way numerous brands are still making brand new private jets and luxury yachts and exotic automobiles? Nobody I know of. Private varnish is a market that is so tiny compared to other luxury transportation that it's barely on the map at all.

In my experience $2k-$4k is a mainstream international trip for those who are able to participate in such things. Some folks may only manage a single week of five star service out of that amount, while others may be able to manage a month or two of one-star service, but in general international trips aren't cheap. I only know a few millionaires but none of them own private jets. Even a fractional jet contract would dwarf the cost of owning and maintaining private varnish.

On the other hand, asking $2k-$4K for a private varnish ticket on the CS, CZ, EB, or SC would be nothing but a tiny drop in the bucket to a millionaire and would still be workable for many in an upper middle class bracket who are familiar traveling abroad and willing to save up for a special trip. I'm not wealthy by any first world measure, but even those kinds of prices are within my range of workable expenses if I felt I was getting my money's worth and was willing to cut back on other expenses. On my last AGR ticket the cash cost would have been damn near $2,000 each way, so we're not even that far from Amtrak's own sleeper rates at this point.