This is why you carry two engines

[battalion51]

This morning when I turned on my cell phone I had a Voice Mail from the night before when it was turned off. It was a phone call from an Engineer friend of mine. According to him 92 with the Amtrak 159 North had an oil pump failure between Avon Park, FL and West Frostproof, FL (about halfway between Sebring and Winter Haven). A CSX engine was sent from West Frostproof to the spot where 92 had stopped, it then proceeded to push 92 in siding at Avon Park. Meanwhile, up at Sanford the Amtrak 840 was readied to lead 92 for the remainder of the trip. The 840 was facing north, and was added to the rear of 97 and towed by 97 to Avon Park. The engine was cut off from the rear of 97 and placed in the lead of 92. As you can imagine 92's crew died on the law, in Orlando. A relief crew was sent from JAX to bring the train from Orlando to JAX. 92 departed Orlando at approximately 9:50 PM, making it about 6 hours late. One word guys, ouch. :blink: (For the record the train was without HEP due to the shutdown of the prime mover which generates the HEP for the train, and let me tell you it's a little warm down here right now.)

 

[AlanB]

(For the record the train was without HEP due to the shutdown of the prime mover which generates the HEP for the train, and let me tell you it's a little warm down here right now.)

That alone is one good reason for having a second engine or at least an F59PHI which has a seperate diesel for the HEP and does not rely on the prime mover for HEP.

IMHO, the lack of a seperate HEP motor is one of the bigger design flaws of the P40/P42's.

 

[Amfleet]

As I learned on my trip to Florida adding a second unit would certainly ease the situation when there's an enroute failure. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the second unit would act as a prime mover while it pushes the first unit acting as a cab and HEP generator. Then the first unit could be notched up to bring the train to track speed when departing a station or being cleared from a siding.

 

[engine999]

This morning when I turned on my cell phone I had a Voice Mail from the night before when it was turned off. It was a phone call from an Engineer friend of mine. According to him 92 with the Amtrak 159 North had an oil pump failure between Avon Park, FL and West Frostproof, FL (about halfway between Sebring and Winter Haven). A CSX engine was sent from West Frostproof to the spot where 92 had stopped, it then proceeded to push 92 in siding at Avon Park. Meanwhile, up at Sanford the Amtrak 840 was readied to lead 92 for the remainder of the trip. The 840 was facing north, and was added to the rear of 97 and towed by 97 to Avon Park. The engine was cut off from the rear of 97 and placed in the lead of 92. As you can imagine 92's crew died on the law, in Orlando. A relief crew was sent from JAX to bring the train from Orlando to JAX. 92 departed Orlando at approximately 9:50 PM, making it about 6 hours late. One word guys, ouch. :blink: (For the record the train was without HEP due to the shutdown of the prime mover which generates the HEP for the train, and let me tell you it's a little warm down here right now.)

The Silver Service trains used to always have to engines on them, untill in the last few years they cut it down to two. It was warm today here, must have been an infirno in the amcans.

 

[battalion51]

As I learned on my trip to Florida adding a second unit would certainly ease the situation when there's an enroute failure. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the second unit would act as a prime mover while it pushes the first unit acting as a cab and HEP generator. Then the first unit could be notched up to bring the train to track speed when departing a station or being cleared from a siding.

Close. Generally the unit furthest from the front (whether it be the second, third, fourth, or whatever) will be used to generate HEP and as the "cruiser." When an Engine is generating HEP it's working as though the Engine were in the 8th notch all the time. So when it comes time to get up to speed the Engineer will "cut in" the lead engine(s) to get the train up to speed. Once he gets close to the maximum speed permitted he will "cut out" the lead engines using as few engines as needed to sustain the maximum speed permitted. In some areas it only takes one engine to cruise, while in other areas with many hills or curves it can take all your engines throttling up and back all the time to keep it at speed.

 

[engine999]

Don't the p42's have to have hep running to provide in cab ac.

 

[battalion51]

No. But how the cab gets its electricty has two possiblities. I think that similar to freight engines when the engine is idled it's still producing a small amount of power to run the electronics in the cab such as AC/heat, computers, headlights, etc. It's also possible that power is stored in batteries and the cab then draws power off these batteries to get the electricity it needs. I'll find out for sure tonight when I talk with an Engineer buddy of mine. But I know that you do not need HEP otherwise how would freight engines that aren't HEP equipped get power for their cabs? They get the power internally from their prime mover somehow. Also, if you look into an engine after its come into its final terminal HEP is shut down right away, yet the electronics in the cab are still live.

 

[engine999]

I thought I read somewhere that one amtrak unit type I thought the genesis's had to have hep engaged. But that dose make sense. Do you know what happend to the Alco switcher at Jax that was there a few years ago? Did it finally die before being replaced with a p32-8?

 

[AlanB]

Also, if you look into an engine after its come into its final terminal HEP is shut down right away, yet the electronics in the cab are still live.

AFAIK, that's not a shutdown of the HEP generator, they are simply and basically opening the circut breaker that allows the 480 to flow to the rest of the train.

The HEP generator is still running, although no longer at max output.

I think that this is how the cab continues to receive its power. In the event of the failure of either the prime mover or the HEP generator, then the cab can operate for a limited amount of time off of the batteries.

 

[battalion51]

Alan, the Prime Mover is the HEP Generator. All power for the train whether it be for the traction motors or HEP is generated by the prime mover, there is no seperate HEP generator as some commuter agencies have installed in their engines. If the train is stopped in a station and you shut down HEP the prime mover goes silent, because there is no demand for power from it. Once you flip the HEP back into the load position you hear the prime mover rev up, and it stays running as fast as it can until there is no demand for power from it. Now if there is a failure (such as an oil pump) the traction motors die, and the HEP dies. Now there has to be batteries on the engine because you don't lose cab electronics when the prime mover is shut down, your computer stays on, and your Air Conditioner probably stays on in the cab. Also, I've been up on P-32-8's before while they were being used as a switcher. Obviously you don't need HEP when your using the HEP as a switcher, yet we still had air conditioning, radio, and headlights. So, in short the cab is not powered by HEP because how else would cab electronics stay up if the prime mover is shut down or the engine is not generating HEP.

 

[Amfleet]

As I learned on my trip to Florida adding a second unit would certainly ease the situation when there's an enroute failure. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the second unit would act as a prime mover while it pushes the first unit acting as a cab and HEP generator. Then the first unit could be notched up to bring the train to track speed when departing a station or being cleared from a siding.

Close. Generally the unit furthest from the front (whether it be the second, third, fourth, or whatever) will be used to generate HEP and as the "cruiser." When an Engine is generating HEP it's working as though the Engine were in the 8th notch all the time. So when it comes time to get up to speed the Engineer will "cut in" the lead engine(s) to get the train up to speed. Once he gets close to the maximum speed permitted he will "cut out" the lead engines using as few engines as needed to sustain the maximum speed permitted. In some areas it only takes one engine to cruise, while in other areas with many hills or curves it can take all your engines throttling up and back all the time to keep it at speed.

So when a train is slowing down or stopping, does the engineer throttle back the second (or trailing) unit? How is that done?

 

[AlanB]

Alan, the Prime Mover is the HEP Generator. All power for the train whether it be for the traction motors or HEP is generated by the prime mover, there is no seperate HEP generator as some commuter agencies have installed in their engines. If the train is stopped in a station and you shut down HEP the prime mover goes silent, because there is no demand for power from it. Once you flip the HEP back into the load position you hear the prime mover rev up, and it stays running as fast as it can until there is no demand for power from it. Now if there is a failure (such as an oil pump) the traction motors die, and the HEP dies. Now there has to be batteries on the engine because you don't lose cab electronics when the prime mover is shut down, your computer stays on, and your Air Conditioner probably stays on in the cab. Also, I've been up on P-32-8's before while they were being used as a switcher. Obviously you don't need HEP when your using the HEP as a switcher, yet we still had air conditioning, radio, and headlights. So, in short the cab is not powered by HEP because how else would cab electronics stay up if the prime mover is shut down or the engine is not generating HEP.

No the prime mover is the typical slang for the diesel engine. That coupled with the traction alternator is what supplies the power to move the train forward. Now it is possible, since I'm not privy to the actual engine diagrams that the cab is powered off of the traction alternator or perhaps even the auxiliary alternator.

Plus of course as I mentioned there are backup batteries to provide power in the event that the diesel shuts down.

There is a separate HEP alternator that creates the 480 power for the passenger cars. Yes this does put a load on the diesel engine or prime mover if the HEP alternator is running, since the diesel must turn the alternator.

This is not saying that there is a separate diesel engine for HEP, but there is a separate alternator to generate the HEP. Yes I remarked before that it would have been nice to have a F59PHI, which does have a separate diesel engine to turn the HEP alternator. It's because of the F59's separate generator that the main diesel engine is called the prime mover. That distinguishes it from the smaller pony diesel on the F59 that turns the HEP alternator.

 

[panamaclipper]

In dinosaur days when I rode the old ATSF Texas Chief all the power for the cars AC came from generators powered by the wheels. They had back up batteries that charged up to keep the juice on during station stops, etc. But in the summer if there was a delay of very long the batteries would run down and the cars would get hotter and hotter inside. I remember as a little kid sitting with my granny who was furiously fanning with a newspaper and cussing the lack of AC in that car.

 

[battalion51]

But Alan, the cab must be powered off the Aux Alternator. I looked over the diagrams, it's the only thing that makes sense. But HEP Alternator requires the prime mover to be in the 8th notch, but the AUX alternator does not require this.

 

[AlanB]

But Alan, the cab must be powered off the Aux Alternator. I looked over the diagrams, it's the only thing that makes sense. But HEP Alternator requires the prime mover to be in the 8th notch, but the AUX alternator does not require this.

That may well be, like I said I can't tell from what's available to me how the cab gets its power. It may well come off of the aux-alternator and in fact probably does, as one would not want to loose cab power when dropping the 480 on the rest of the train.

However other than it's not having been designed that way, there is no reason that it wouldn't be possible to draw off cab power from the HEP-alternator, while cutting off the 480 to the coaches.

Without schematics however, there is no way for me to tell for sure where the cab gets its power.

 

[engine999]

ok, that makes sense.

 

[AlanB]

By the way, in the case of freight engines, one of two things happens to supply cab power. Either they have a small aux-alternator or they pull power off of the traction alternator and then convert it via rectifiers and transformers as needed.

Of course they also have backup batteries to provide power in the event of a major failure. However those batteries are not going to provide long-term power.

 

[Amtrak OBS Employee]

This morning when I turned on my cell phone I had a Voice Mail from the night before when it was turned off. It was a phone call from an Engineer friend of mine. According to him 92 with the Amtrak 159 North had an oil pump failure between Avon Park, FL and West Frostproof, FL (about halfway between Sebring and Winter Haven). A CSX engine was sent from West Frostproof to the spot where 92 had stopped, it then proceeded to push 92 in siding at Avon Park. Meanwhile, up at Sanford the Amtrak 840 was readied to lead 92 for the remainder of the trip. The 840 was facing north, and was added to the rear of 97 and towed by 97 to Avon Park. The engine was cut off from the rear of 97 and placed in the lead of 92. As you can imagine 92's crew died on the law, in Orlando. A relief crew was sent from JAX to bring the train from Orlando to JAX. 92 departed Orlando at approximately 9:50 PM, making it about 6 hours late. One word guys, ouch. :blink: (For the record the train was without HEP due to the shutdown of the prime mover which generates the HEP for the train, and let me tell you it's a little warm down here right now.)

Already sounds like a trip to be missed!!!! Those poor folks on the train!!! :blink:

 

[battalion51]

The best thing I can say that worked to their advantage is that the best Conductor in JAX was the Conductor of the train. He's one of the highest seniority Conductors, remains calm, and just takes things as they come. He's definitely one of the best suited to deal with that sort of situation.

 

[AMTK@AUS]

Has anyone heard of any plans to stop this nonsense and just go back to the old methods of running these trains, with two or more engines??

It seems like I read somewhere that Mr. Gunn was on board a train with a dead loco a couple months back... One would think this would affect the practice of single-engine running!

 

[AMTRAK-P42]

Has anyone heard of any plans to stop this nonsense and just go back to the old methods of running these trains, with two or more engines??  
It seems like I read somewhere that Mr. Gunn was on board a train with a dead loco a couple months back...  One would think this would affect the practice of single-engine running!

Well that has always been my vote. It comes down to many things, including money and availability of the units.

 

[Foodman53]

As of 2 days ago, "Pepsi-Can" locomotive #515, resides at the JAX Amtrak Station. Now, whether this unit has HEP, or could have even helped in this situation is now moot...but, that engine is available!!

My question is like everyone else's....Was the economy gain of only using 1 loco worth the fallout of an entire day's passenger load...who, all in all probability, will never use the train again?

To gain riders, Amtrak has to court people who have never ridden the rails before...not we railfans!! And, when you have a pronounced tendency to have problems....the general public doesn't understand, or, let alone care(nor, should they!!)...All they want is to have a good product or service delivered, get their money's worth, and not be disappointed!

But, for fairness sake, #91 & 92 have been pretty much on time while here in Florida, except for that situation!!

From the "Florida Funnel"

Foodman53

 

[engine999]

It is hard to get repeat customers when you have long delays. Unfortunatley they happen and it may seem avoidable but certain criteria should be met to prevent them. In this instance a second p42 would be great.

 

[battalion51]

OK Alan I talked to someone last night. Here's how it works, the AC and refrigerators are run off of 480 (HEP is required). The Computer Systems, radio, headlights, air compressor, and space heater are run off 74 Volt which is powered by the Aux Alternator. So I guess the true answer is a little bit of both. The 74 Volt system is backed up by batteries. The 74 volt system also powers what is known as the spotter. The spotter can be used to move the engine a short distance (no more than half a mile) without firing up the prime mover. It's mostly used around diesel shops to move the engine when necessary. The batteries also fire up the prime mover when its summoned, the batteries are charged while the prime mover is engaged.

 

[AlanB]

Well that makes sense. One wouldn't want to run the A/C off of the batteries as that would quickly drain them. Not that using the spotter wouldn't drain them too, but I think that I'd rather have the use of the spotter to move the engine, especially if it was in a bad spot than a cool cab.