Toilets in the Mountains

[x-press]

On the Chief two years ago in New Mexico, I was told that the toilets weren't working, but "don't worry, they'll go back on at ___, when we're at a low enough elevation." I don't remember the station, but it went just as predicted.

Last year on the Zephyr, we were told, again, that "toilets weren't working in our car, use the next sleeper" (air conditioning wasn't working in that car, but that's another story). They were going to "try to fix" them in Denver (needless to say, my fiance FLIPPED out; I had visions of never being able to ride a long-distance train again). They were successful, and I "lived to fight another day).

How often does this happen? Is it every trip? If so, is this something Amtrak is actively working to fix? It just seems a bit inhumane and unsanitary.

JPS

 

[rogers55]

We had that experience on the SWC westbound last year.

We had to use the restrooms in the next car that was working

part of the time. In other words they could flush every 20

minutes. I forgot which car I was in at one point and got into

someone elses roomette. And back out real fast.

They did try to fix it when we got down to a lower elevation but

were not successful.

This year we did not have that experience on the SWC or the

EB. The crew last year were very frustrated and implied that

this was not an isolated incident. Our car attendant gave us

detailed instructions on how to file a complaint and ask for

compensation.

 

[AlanB]

The bathrooms work on a vacuum system. As the system ages, holes appear in the lines and such, it gets harder and harder to maintain that vacuum at higher altitudes. Once you return to a lower altitude, the system can once again keep up and everything works fine.

There are other failures that can take the whole thing down for the duration, but if it only fails at higher altitudes, then it's because of the vacuum or lack thereof.

 

[Larry H.]

We had no toilets working from Denver to San Francisco this spring in either sleeper. That lasted most of the trip with the attendant able to get it to work some of the time. I think they worked at it in Salt Lake perhaps, but with no luck. Then on the return trip on the SWC it didn't work either. That attendant also said it didn't work most of the time..

I had met a supposed Customer Service Manager on the Coast Star Light from San Francisco. We told him of the problems encountered and he said to call and we might get a rebate. It turned out we got 1,000 in vouchers for another trip..

The worst part of this whole story is that I had read about this happening as long as I have been around these boards and evidently it happens nearly daily. I understand the vacuum pumps were not replaced as they should have been when the cars were updated? Now that begs one to wonder exactly why the situation is not fixed when so many are inconvenienced by this. I know some defend the expense of the sleepers, but this kind of total lack of management action to remedy a problem is almost shocking. Only in government could this go on so long.

I recently emailed the fellow and gave him a run down of our most recent trip since he said he was interested in how things were going from the passengers view point.. I pointedly mentioned that with the growing use of rail and a chance for growth of service it was time that someone decide to tackle some of these kinds of issues and actually fix them. Things like the toilets, Curtains that are so standard and the velcro is either missing or doesn't line up so you can secure your drapes is unexceptable and wouldn't fly any where but on amtrak. I suggested he forward my letter or take it to the next board meeting and see if something couldn't be done to once and for all fix these kinds of things.. That along with the majority of passengers and crews feeling about the CCC car and elimination of lounges.. He wrote me back four times saying he had forwarded it to his bosses and to people who supposedly would act on seeing things actually fixed.. My guess is we will still be reading these reports next year?

 

[Larry H.]

I should have added since I didn't read Allens report too well first, that we were told that in stead of replacing the two necessary vacuum pumps they tried to save money and used one which was the cause of these issues. That might be incorrect, but that is what the attendants told us was the reason they failed to work. Its time to replace the other one too in that case.

 

[access bob]

On the Chief two years ago in New Mexico, I was told that the toilets weren't working, but "don't worry, they'll go back on at ___, when we're at a low enough elevation." I don't remember the station, but it went just as predicted.
Last year on the Zephyr, we were told, again, that "toilets weren't working in our car, use the next sleeper" (air conditioning wasn't working in that car, but that's another story). They were going to "try to fix" them in Denver (needless to say, my fiance FLIPPED out; I had visions of never being able to ride a long-distance train again). They were successful, and I "lived to fight another day).

How often does this happen? Is it every trip? If so, is this something Amtrak is actively working to fix? It just seems a bit inhumane and unsanitary.

JPS

I took the SWC to the APTA convention two weeks ago and had the same problem, but apparently there is a reset or something in a cabinet because our car attendant would open the cabinet and flip a switch,. then all the toilets in the car would flush once., and only once until he flipped the switch again, he would come down every half hour or so and flip the switch, this lasted most of a day, back down to lower altitude and it worked fine again.

the EB must not have gone as high because the toilets worked fine.

while at the convention I ran into one of the engineers that built the cars Superliner II's from Bombardier. and he said they are aware of the problem and have told Amtrak what the problem is, how to fix it and have even offered to help, but so far no go ahead from Amtrak,. apparently it is a minor repair.

what can i say

Bob

Bob

 

[sky12065]

The bathrooms work on a vacuum system. As the system ages, holes appear in the lines and such, it gets harder and harder to maintain that vacuum at higher altitudes. Once you return to a lower altitude, the system can once again keep up and everything works fine.
There are other failures that can take the whole thing down for the duration, but if it only fails at higher altitudes, then it's because of the vacuum or lack thereof.

And I thought a little duct tape could fix anything! :unsure:

 

[ralfp]

The bathrooms work on a vacuum system. As the system ages, holes appear in the lines and such, it gets harder and harder to maintain that vacuum at higher altitudes. Once you return to a lower altitude, the system can once again keep up and everything works fine.

I'm confused by this. Vacuum toilets work by differential pressure. As the leakage rate increases, so does the effectiveness of the vacuum. Shouldn't the two cancel out?

 

[AlanB]

The bathrooms work on a vacuum system. As the system ages, holes appear in the lines and such, it gets harder and harder to maintain that vacuum at higher altitudes. Once you return to a lower altitude, the system can once again keep up and everything works fine.

I'm confused by this. Vacuum toilets work by differential pressure. As the leakage rate increases, so does the effectiveness of the vacuum. Shouldn't the two cancel out?

I may be speaking out of turn as to just why the pressure decreases, as in it may just be weak pumps and not holes or even something else. All I do know is that the pump are unable to maintain enough vacuum pressure at the higher altitudes and therefore the toilets fail.

And for Larry, not only did Amtrak not replace the vacuum pumps during the refurbishments of the Superliner I's, they replaced nothing that the passenger does not see. All the wiring, circuit breakers, heaters, water system, and so on was not replaced during the major refurbishment of the Superliner I cars.

All they did was put a nice glossy finish on a car filled with old underlying support stuff.

 

[x-press]

The worst part of this whole story is that I had read about this happening as long as I have been around these boards and evidently it happens nearly daily. I understand the vacuum pumps were not replaced as they should have been when the cars were updated? Now that begs one to wonder exactly why the situation is not fixed when so many are inconvenienced by this. I know some defend the expense of the sleepers, but this kind of total lack of management action to remedy a problem is almost shocking. Only in government could this go on so long.

Amen! And you hardly ever hear about this stuff (toilets that break down constantly, routine AC malfunctions) in TRAINS Magazine, internet forums, NARP newsletters, etc. It's all diner-lite mourning, gruff crew complaints, and how they need more subsidies.

Just to be clear, diner-lite has not proved a smashing success (increased ridership may be one cause), gruff crews are unacceptable (though I don't run into them as often as one might think), and Amtrak DOES need more funding . . . but the fact is, they aren't always spending their existing funds wisely. Alan correctly points out that the superliner "refurbishments" were in name only. Amtrak can dispense with the smoke and mirrors, and get down to running their railroad. I am surprised that David Gunn, a real infrastructure/equipment guy, let this happen on his watch (I believe that's when these were done).

JPS

 

[Everydaymatters]

A few years back the toilets stopped working on the Capitol Ltd. due to the vacuum system. They took care of the problem in Pittsburgh and they worked fine the rest of the trip.

 

[RailFanLNK]

Ephram our Sleeper Attendent was constantly "resetting the breaker" or something like that which made the toilets flush for about 2 or 3 flushes before shutting down again. I thought this was a nice touch! He seemed to be on top of it from the get go!

Al

 

[sky12065]

Ephram our Sleeper Attendent was constantly "resetting the breaker" or something like that which made the toilets flush for about 2 or 3 flushes before shutting down again. I thought this was a nice touch! He seemed to be on top of it from the get go!
Al

Sure as shoot'n that sounds like Ephram. Always Jonnie on the spot when you need him. I don't know if he's always like that, but just image how great it would be for passengers if all attendants where as good as Ephram! (not that there aren't some others)

Kudos to Ephram!

 

[Bierboy]

Ephram our Sleeper Attendent was constantly "resetting the breaker" or something like that which made the toilets flush for about 2 or 3 flushes before shutting down again. I thought this was a nice touch! He seemed to be on top of it from the get go!
Al

We had this problem on the westbound SW Chief in June 2007. Our attendant was a rookie, so he was unsure of the cause, but he did try to reset them every time we complained. Good thing we had a bedroom so we could close the doorr...it still smelled bad, though!

 

[AlanB]

The need to keep resetting the breaker sounds like a different issue than the one caused by high altitudes.

Regardless though, neither should be happening with any regularity.

 

[access bob]

The need to keep resetting the breaker sounds like a different issue than the one caused by high altitudes.
Regardless though, neither should be happening with any regularity.

it wasn't a breakerl he was resetting but rather the something in the vacuum setting, he said he was setting it for a manual flush, apparently and this is my reading between the lines is that the problem isn't with the toilets so much as the sensors that allow them to work and they get a signal that the tanks are full, he resets it, they flush once then get the signal the tanks are full again. he may be hitting an overide or some such but when he did it the toilets all flushed once and only once before needing to be reset. (they still needed to be induvidually flushed) he would come down, reset, go into each toilet flush them then reset em again... did this about every half hour or so. must have really gotten in the way of his other duties.

Bob

 

[Bierboy]

it wasn't a breakerl he was resetting but rather the something in the vacuum setting, he said he was setting it for a manual flush, apparently and this is my reading between the lines is that the problem isn't with the toilets so much as the sensors that allow them to work and they get a signal that the tanks are full, he resets it, they flush once then get the signal the tanks are full again. he may be hitting an overide or some such but when he did it the toilets all flushed once and only once before needing to be reset. (they still needed to be induvidually flushed) he would come down, reset, go into each toilet flush them then reset em again... did this about every half hour or so. must have really gotten in the way of his other duties.
Bob

Bob - Now that you mention it, that's EXACTLY what happened on the SW Chief.