Treatment of Handicapped Passengers when EB is late

[June the Coach Rider]

I am hoping this is not the usual way they handle things when the Empire Builder is late into Chicago.

I recently completed my April cross country trip. The Empire Builder out of Portland supposedly had no lower level seats available. I had to struggle to make it upstairs. Everytime I came downstairs, there were always many seats open downstairs. I kept asking the car attendant and her response was "We need those, in case a wheelchair passenger comes on" So they are treating disabled that can walk like second class passengers and following the "just in case" rules. NOT the main issue.

The main issue was that when the Empire Builder finally got into Chicago, they had held the Lakeshore Limited for us. I have on my ticket that I need station and luggage assistance. When we got there, our car attendant said, that is your train, go find your car. Never offering help. When I said I needed assistance, she said, well if you want to make your train, you will find someway to make it on your own. WHAT!!

So I struggled to walk with my cane and my carry-on luggage having to go all the way to the front as the Boston section is on the front of the LSL. about half way there, a car attendant from the Lakeshore Limited grabbed my luggage and asked where I was going. When I told him Worcester, MA, he said you have four more cars to walk. I told him I could not do that. He said he would take my luggage and for me to get on the next car and rest. I did and that car attendant told me I had to move to my car. I finally got back to the car I was supposed to be in, the attendant with my luggage was there, I was supposed to have handicapped access seats. The Boston coach attendant said there were no more in that car. The attendant with my luggage said, come with me I will get you a seat in the next car.

My complaint is the handling of the transfer from the Empire Builder to the Lakeshore LImited. They knew that the LSL was being held and should have planned for assistance for the passengers that needed it and had it listed on their reservations.

 

[TinCan782]

Writing Boardman probably the best thing you could do. Too bad you (and other good customers) are treated that was.

I had a situation where the train didn't do a double spot and our car was beyond the end of the platform. We were in Business Class at the head end and my wife, who uses a cane and/or walker, had to climb upstairs in order to move through 2 cars to the business car and back down again. (Pacific Surfliner) Called customer relations on that one.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Sorry to hear about your experience.

Couple issues that I see.

A) Coach attendants do not normal get a copy of the passenger manifest.

B) Amtrak stops paying the staff at the bumper post.

C) Red Caps should of been called.

A real time IT program could of help, but even companies like Walt Disney World still have gaps.

I do hope Amtrak get back to you, however ADA complain might be need to get a real change.

It should not be that hard. "Oh look a lady with a cane. I should ask if she is changing to the LSL? Maybe I should ask if she would like a Red Cap to assist her."

It does sound like a single member of the LSL try to help you out, but he should of stick to your side, and not let you fiend for yourself with the other staff members.

Last thought, it easier to ask forgiveness than it is to ask permission. Move yourself to the lower level next time.

Bad deal overall.

 

[EB_OBS]

Hi June

I'm sorry you had a bad experience on the Empire Builder.

The red cap situation or shortage in Chicago has been one of my frustrations too. Generally you just have to wait and they will continue to come back and pick people up until they have everyone. Often times this can take several trips. It's frustrating I know. It sounds like the attendant could have been more accommodating or proactive and ensured you had a timely lift to your connecting train.

The lower level seating on the Empire Builder is reserved seating on a reserved train. If you need lower level seating you have to ensure it's on your ticket, otherwise your seats are indeed upstairs. Ask for it specifically when you make your reservation. If it's not available the agent should inform you and it won't be printed on your ticket. The lower levels may not always be full but at some point in the journey it was. There are only twelve seats there. I myself do train car attendants to not seat passengers in the lower level if their ticket is not for the lower level unless they are positive that at some point it won't be overfull. If and when someone gets on with a LL ticket and it's full I fully expect the passengers not ticketed for LL to move upstairs.

I'm glad you wrote Mr. Boardman as your letters and comments do indeed get disseminated down to the managers and the OBS and station staff as well.

 

[FriskyFL]

The OP`s treatment on board the EB as well as in the station was appalling. Heads should roll. Not holding my breath.

 

[neroden]

Include as much detailed information as you can, so that management can figure out exactly who was responsible for this travesty and get some people fired.

You encountered several really bad ADA violations and should file a formal ADA complaint.

The Empire Builder staff were the worst:

(1) They must allow you to sit in the lower level if there are actually seats free.

(2) They must call assistance for you upon arrival.

These are basic "reasonable accomodations". Failing to provide them is a blatant ADA violation.

The attendant who outright refused to call help for you and told you you were on your own needs to be fired for cause so that she never gets employed in a customer-facing position anywhere ever again.

The LSL car attendant who told you to get in the next car and rest did his job. He should actually be commended for "picking up after" the derelict EB crew. He's the only one who was trying to comply with the ADA and assist you.

The other LSL car attendant who tried to order you to move did something he shouldn't have, but he probably didn't realize that he was coming in on the tail end of a complete cluster****, so that's a bit more excusable.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I'm not going to condone the actions of the various OBS personnel- they are absolutely wrong, and they should be dealt with.

But let me give you a general suggestion, both for Amtrak and otherwise. The ADA is a powerful act. Violations of it come with severe penalties. As someone with their own mobility issues, I find that it can be a pretty good hammer. I don't like using it, because like most people who have handicaps, I don't usually want help. I want to do whatever I can by myself. But there are times when I need assistance, and I find that both passive and active tactics help.

Passive tactics include things like hanging your cane within sight of a person you are asking for assistance from. Since they have to keep looking at it, they can't pretend to ignore it. They also involve asking how far a walk it is, and how much time you have to make it, and wondering aloud in response if you have the time/energy to make such a walk, especially as one only has one hand (the other is holding the cane).

If the passive tactics don't work, use the active ones. "I really need help, I can't do this on my own, please help me," is a good first posture. If they politely and friendly tell you they are presently unable to help you, a good second posture is, "I understand, I'm sure you can find someone else who can help me, though, right?"

If they have a rude posture, though, you really need to be prepared to fire a salvo across their bow. First of all, make a point of looking at their name tag (and incase this doesn't work, and probably even if it does, make a point of remembering their name). Then say something to the effect of, "Listen, NAME, I am a person with a disability, and I am asking you to help me. As an employee of Amtrak, you are required to comply with the ADA. I am a disabled person, and I need help getting from here to the next train." I know its a hard thing for some people to do, and trust me, I avoid doing things like that, too.

By the way, avoid making direct threats (e.g. "I am going to report you to Amtrak!"). First of all, it sounds really stupid. Second of all, if they believe you are going to do it, and you act like that, they generally will feel like there is no particular reason to do anything about it. The ADA mentioning statement I suggested above has an implied threat to it. I find that projecting the expectation I will be helped tends to result in me being helped.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The OP`s treatment on board the EB as well as in the station was appalling. Heads should roll. Not holding my breath.

I wouldn't, if I were you. Your avatar is already blue as it is.

 

[brentrain17]

You should not have to use "tactics" to get the service required by law

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Of course not. But it is useful to know some because people are jerks.

 

[EB_OBS]

First of all, under the ADA, Amtrak is required to provide space and reasonable accommodations. Amtrak is not required however, upheld by the courts, to provide more than reasonable space or accommodations. Lower Level seating is reserved. If you must have LL seating and none is available Amtrak is not required to add more, once again, this has been upheld in court. Just because one person said the LL was "never" full doesn't mean it actually wasn't overnight. Was this person awake all night? Up from say PSC to SBY and at no point was the LL full? I doubt it. If I knew June's travel date's I could tell you for sure. If it indeed wasn't full then June should have been able to reserve her seat on the LL and it be printed on her ticket. It cost's no more and no less than any other seat on the train as far as I know. People constantly insist even demand that they must sit on the LL when they are not ticketed for it. In her post June even stated that on the second day she was able to move to the LL. Where is the ADA violation here?

I wholeheartedly agree June's experience in Chicago was a very very poor example of customer service. The Empire Builder TA is in serious need of counseling and remedial customer service training. Empathy and understanding and some common sense go a long way. That said, it is the station's job and red cap's to transport passengers that need assistance to connecting trains. What the TA should have done was inform the conductor that she had passengers still needing assistance, specifically to the waiting LSL, and then waited with said passengers 'til they were all picked up.

The shortage of red caps has been discussed here repeatedly. It's generally a first come first served service and if you need assistance to or from the train then you wait for a red cap. Again where is the ADA violation here? If June waited for a red cap one would have come to pick her up.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

In a stress filled environment where that TAC reacted the way June described, it is likely she didn't think help was available to her in a manner timely enough to catch the held LSL. You were mentioning empathy?

 

[JackieTakestheTrain]

June -- I have been in a similar situation on Amtrak. I only have two quick points to share:

1. I agree that you should write to Boardman and customer service. I had a situation very similar to yours and when I got back home I wrote a letter and cc'd and sent copies to the U.S. Dept of Civil Rights who handle the ADA. In my letter, I outlined every fact with dates and names if I could *AND* I stressed that I wanted someone to call me back -- not just write to me. I did receive a phone call from Customer Service and while they weren't terribly sympathetic, I did get some retribution.

If you choose to go this route, think about what it is you ultimately want -- some type of travel voucher OR even an apology. (I wanted and received both.)

2. I use a cane and have very bad arthritis and I can never really tell from day to day how much I can or can't do. I just get in the habit of always requesting special services as it is easier to request it at the time of making the reservation than to try to get it on the fly. It does not always mean someone will help me and there have been times I have had to go with the flow and be solo, but many times I do get some type of assistance. If I am having a good day with walking, I will tell someone when I check in that I won't need special services. However, some types they will bring a wheelchair for me anyway because it is faster for them to get me onboard than waiting for me to walk --which is fine with me.

I hope you find this helpful.

- Jackie

 

[neroden]

The shortage of red caps has been discussed here repeatedly. It's generally a first come first served service and if you need assistance to or from the train then you wait for a red cap. Again where is the ADA violation here? If June waited for a red cap one would have come to pick her up.

You provide no evidence of this. The attendant is supposed to call a red cap and make sure a red cap picks her up -- the attendant instead said "you're on your own".
That's the big ADA violation here. June could very easily have been stranded. There's no way for her to call a Red Cap on her own from trainside. There's no guarantee that the Red Caps will come back to get her.

When I've been with my arthritic fiancee in similar situations, the attendant has said "I will get you a Red Cap. Wait here. I will make sure you get a Red Cap."

 

[rusty spike]

The TAC on board the EB must have forgot this part of the Service Standards Manual (#7 p. 6-79):

• Notify the Conductor of all passengers who
require a wheelchair or other special assistance
at their destination. This must be done as early
as possible so that the information can be sent
well in advance to the station.

• If Red Cap Service has been ordered, but has not
yet arrived, the Train Attendant is to stay with
the passenger until the Red Cap Service arrives.

 

[EB_OBS]

When I've been with my arthritic fiancee in similar situations, the attendant has said "I will get you a Red Cap. Wait here. I will make sure you get a Red Cap."

And that's almost exactly what I said the TA should have done. The TA doesn't need to go get a red cap. There are several ways to ensure station services continues to send red caps 'til all the passengers have been picked up. I did say that TA indeed needs some counseling and retraining. They did a very poor job alleviating June's concern for missing her connection and their comment to June actually made it worse. If it were solely up to me I'd give the TA an unpaid vacation too. Eleven to twenty days to start.

The station knows who is onboard and connecting to another train, especially a train being held for connecting passengers. The conductor on the outbound train knows who is missing, and can see they haven't made it from their other train yet. The Electronic Ticket Device makes this very simple and quick now. I know Amtrak isn't perfect but it makes no sense whatsoever to hold a train only to then depart without all your connections.

 

[FriskyFL]

First of all, under the ADA, Amtrak is required to provide space and reasonable accommodations. Amtrak is not required however, upheld by the courts, to provide more than reasonable space or accommodations. Lower Level seating is reserved. If you must have LL seating and none is available Amtrak is not required to add more, once again, this has been upheld in court. Just because one person said the LL was "never" full doesn't mean it actually wasn't overnight. Was this person awake all night? Up from say PSC to SBY and at no point was the LL full? I doubt it. If I knew June's travel date's I could tell you for sure. If it indeed wasn't full then June should have been able to reserve her seat on the LL and it be printed on her ticket. It cost's no more and no less than any other seat on the train as far as I know. People constantly insist even demand that they must sit on the LL when they are not ticketed for it. In her post June even stated that on the second day she was able to move to the LL. Where is the ADA violation here?

I wholeheartedly agree June's experience in Chicago was a very very poor example of customer service. The Empire Builder TA is in serious need of counseling and remedial customer service training. Empathy and understanding and some common sense go a long way. That said, it is the station's job and red cap's to transport passengers that need assistance to connecting trains. What the TA should have done was inform the conductor that she had passengers still needing assistance, specifically to the waiting LSL, and then waited with said passengers 'til they were all picked up.

The shortage of red caps has been discussed here repeatedly. It's generally a first come first served service and if you need assistance to or from the train then you wait for a red cap. Again where is the ADA violation here? If June waited for a red cap one would have come to pick her up.

I'm appalled...but not surprised. Quoting chapter and verse from the ADA may very well be good CYA, but deplorable customer service. I'm sure that the OP will be thrilled to know that the OBS are so well versed in Constitutional law, but so lacking in even rudimentary customer service skills. No, the TA doesn't require "sensitivity training", or whatever bs, he should be gone, terminated, no way someone like that belongs in customer facing positions.

 

[EB_OBS]

The shortage of red caps has been discussed here repeatedly. It's generally a first come first served service and if you need assistance to or from the train then you wait for a red cap. Again where is the ADA violation here? If June waited for a red cap one would have come to pick her up.

You provide no evidence of this.

Evidence of what? That red caps would come back? That's what they do. June provides no "evidence" one way or the other whether red caps were at the train platform picking up passengers or not but you know very well that they were. There are seven passenger cars to serve and June was at the rear end of the train. Usually the red cap at the rear of the train does the sleeper first and when they leave they see that other passengers are still there waiting for assistance.

As has been stated, and shown above in the blue book, the TA's job is to stay with the passengers until they've all been picked up and based on June's post we don't know that they didn't.

 

[EB_OBS]

No, the TA doesn't require "sensitivity training", or whatever bs, he should be gone, terminated, no way someone like that belongs in customer facing positions.

If this person has or shows a pattern of poor customer service and has had the opportunity to be counseled, trained and to correct their poor performance and behavior then I totally agree. We don't know who this TA was though do we? Like I said earlier though, if I knew the date June left PDX then I will know exactly who it was. If this person has no history of complaints then they do indeed get the opportunity to improve. If they are new, and Chicago has a lot of new TAs right now, then again they still get a chance to improve. If they don't then they will continue to exhibit this behavior and will eventually get fired. I have no problem terminating employees who don't belong in customer service but nobody get fired for their first complaint and without proper counseling, retraining and a probationary time period to improve. That's pretty standard union or no union.

 

[FriskyFL]

No, the TA doesn't require "sensitivity training", or whatever bs, he should be gone, terminated, no way someone like that belongs in customer facing positions.

If this person has or shows a pattern of poor customer service and has had the opportunity to be counseled, trained and to correct their poor performance and behavior then I totally agree. We don't know who this TA was though do we? Like I said earlier though, if I knew the date June left PDX then I will know exactly who it was. If this person has no history of complaints then they do indeed get the opportunity to improve.

This goes far beyond "poor service". Blowing off a disabled customer should be a zero tolerance offense. Sometimes you can't fix stupid, and this is clearly one of those cases. Empathy can't be taught.

 

[EB_OBS]

I think about the only thing Amtrak has "zero tolerance" for is theft. For everything else zero tolerance just doesn't hold up at arbitration. You must document counseling, remedial training and progressive discipline if you want to fire somebody and keep them fired.

 

[Ryan]

This is awesome.

Here is EB_OBS, doing and saying exactly what should be said, and still getting crapped on by Monday morning quarterbacks that think they know everything (and taking his own personal time to do it).

It must be nice to be so amazingly perfect that you can demand people be fired based on limited knowledge of the situation.

EB_OBS, keep up the great work and don't let the naysayers get you down. If Amtrak was filled with managers like you, things would be a heck of a lot better.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Empathy can't be taught.

However policy and procedure can be.

EB_OBS right on the talk and retraining part.

June the coach travel will be back to fill in details. Nine Hundred post she has, not a one time guest posting a bad trip story.

 

[neroden]

I think about the only thing Amtrak has "zero tolerance" for is theft. For everything else zero tolerance just doesn't hold up at arbitration. You must document counseling, remedial training and progressive discipline if you want to fire somebody and keep them fired.

This is totally reasonable managerial policy. However, it makes it all the more important that badly-behaving employees get reported by name. Because the only way they get fired is if they have a *string* of passenger complaints attached to their name.
Unfortunately, most customers never complain; IIRC, the rule of thumb in retail is that for each complaining customer, you have roughly *20* customers who feel the same way and didn't say anything. So by the time an employee has three complaints against them for the same thing, they've probably mistreated 60 customers...

 

[neroden]

And that's almost exactly what I said the TA should have done. The TA doesn't need to go get a red cap. There are several ways to ensure station services continues to send red caps 'til all the passengers have been picked up. I did say that TA indeed needs some counseling and retraining. They did a very poor job alleviating June's concern for missing her connection and their comment to June actually made it worse. If it were solely up to me I'd give the TA an unpaid vacation too. Eleven to twenty days to start.

We're in agreement pretty much.