Trying to Improve Amtrak Schedules in Ohio

[ParanoidAndroid]

Buh, you could reserve the hotel though . . .

In the following, I imply this is fact, but I'm only speculating. I didn't want to write "it probably would have been" every time.

Anyway, the new Pennsylvanian only worked in narrow circumstances. Philly at 6:35am isn't that great, seeing that NYPers and WASers can't connect over there at civilized times.

There probably would have been minimal passengers going within Pennsylvania on this train, as other Keystones existed, and Three Rivers did a better daytime job from PHL-PGH.

Only after PGH did this train have any usefulness, and only to Toledo. This train only had usefulness for trips PGH-CLE-TOL, only. If this train did PGH-TOL, it would have cost less to run it, and it would have done useful, no-other-day-train-on-the-route daytime service to Ohio. I'm not sure if Ohio subsidized the train either, as a Republican governor was governing Ohio at the time. I don't anything advanced about politics though, so don't trust that.

The Palmetto does have lousy NYP times, but at least has better times serving all the cities south of NYP. The Pennsylvanian didn't have any major cities until Harrisburg, and only another one at Pittsburgh. The Palmetto probably gets riders around Philadelphia and Washington DC, and that's the NEC too. That would go down to Richmond and the Carolinas. Then I'm not sure why the Palmetto works south of Richmond. There aren't major cities along that part of the route, and Carolinian does all the cities in the Carolinas.

Opposed to that, this new day train thingy has major cities at Albany, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, and Cleveland before heading through more of Ohio. But then you say that there probably aren't many passengers going from upstate NY to Ohio, so that kills the train. But that's just your speculation. I'm consistently seeing Toledo being 10th in ridership from upstate NY stations (NARP data), and the LSL serves that westbound at a good-ish time, compared to Cleveland. So there's not much very good data on that, unless your "speculation" has some more different data behind it. Maybe I should take a look at airplane data to see upstate NY to Ohio flights. But then again, those flights might be expensive.

So, IDK. It has multiple cities along its route, something the Palmetto doesn't have south of Richmond (Richmond gets served by a lot of other trains too), but I haven't found good ridership data between cities upstate NY to Ohio. It does have more train-competition between NYP and BUF, but unlike the former Pennsylvanian, it has more cities to serve at unnoticeably different (in terms of convenience) times compared to competing trains (in this case, Empire Service trains).

After analyzing more details of the train and other trains you and I mentioned, this is my "supporting evidence" for this proposed day-train. I will check airplane ridership data for this train.

Thanks for reading.

If there's any flaws I missed that you didn't mention yet, please mention them. Thanks!

EDIT:

From Toledo OH, in 2014, top ridership stations from here were, in upstate NY,

5. Syracuse NY

6. Rochester NY

7. Buffalo NY

8. Albany NY.

For Cleveland:

4. Syracuse NY

6. Albany NY

7. Rochester NY

9. Buffalo NY.

The other way,

at Syracuse and Rochester and Buffalo,

10. Toledo

is the only thing I see.

So there's ridership on this section.

 

[neroden]

For what it's worth I know some of those Toledo passengers from upstate NY. Many of them are heading to Michigan.

(A Toledo-Ann Arbor-Lansing-Grand Rapids train which connected to the LSL would fill up instantly.)

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

There certainly is traffic from TOL to upstate New York but there's clearly more to NYP. I'm just saying if someone has to get a time in the graveyard shift, should it be the #1 destination on the route for Ohioans (assuming NYP-CIN)? I'm not saying there won't be traffic before NYP. Of course there will be. I'm just thinking all things being equal that there will be more to NYP and the train should be scheduled more for Ohio and for NYP than to make NYP the city with the difficult time(s).

As for being 5th-8th on TOL's list, remember that's 5th-8th among LSL and CL cities and there aren't that many. CHI doesn't crack the top 10 of NYP destinations but does in most of the upstate NY destinations. Does that mean more people travel from ROC to CHI than NYP to CHI? Of course not. There's just many more cities to travel to/from NYP.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Well, this again means this train is useless. If the Palmetto doesn't work in your eyes, then this won't either.

Because Ohioans can use the Liberty Limited to get to NYP.

This train works from CIN to ALB (at good enough times), and if there's not enough trips between those cities, then yes, this train's dead. I assumed there would be enough.

Other options, like terminating the train in BUF for BUF-CIN, those seem kinda silly to me, as only trips within Ohio and those to Buffalo are served, but still 2 sets are needed to run it, or CIN is in the graveyard shift going south.

CIN 743A

CLE 1220P/1230P

BUF 330P

Piedmont turn is 2 hours

BUF 530P

CLE 900P/910P

CIN 142A

That's the train on 1 set.

So I'm assuming there's not enough traffic between upstate NY and Ohio to make a day train.

 

[Seaboard92]

Well there is another route that just got hinted at that would do really well. DET-BUF-NYP. I know in previous threads someone has said that it is the most asked for route that doesn't exist. So let's say we put the NYP-DET train on day shift via CLE,TOL that would pull our day market and I have a schedule for this on another thread. Then the OSL takes the night run NYP-CLE and continues on to CIN. That now gives Cleveland two new options to go east a day train with no connections and a night train with connections.

Then to keep the day train on the OSL route and Empire route at the same time. If Ohio would fund it a Buckeye Corridor train that connects to the Detroit train. Which then gives two frequencies to the Buckeye corridor a morning and evening departure from both end points. CIN and CLE are the main winners.

 

[Bob Dylan]

"..if Ohio will fund.." requires a change in the State Government!

Let's hope Ohio's current anti-rail Governor doesn't make it back to Washington so he can kill Amtrak and other Rail projects!

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

How many hours from TOL to DET?

 

[Seaboard92]

I figured it I think for 1.5

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Ok.

DET 750A

CLE 920A/930A

NYP 911P

NYP 807A

CLE 700A/710A

DET 840P

It still takes 11 hours to do.

 

[Seaboard92]

If you dig Max I have a full schedule for all stops somewhere on au

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

You mean your Ohio State Limited?

Or all the stops Amtrak has ever operated to? Including every single pathetic route like the Lake Country Limited?

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Ok.

DET 750A

CLE 920A/930A

NYP 911P

NYP 807A

CLE 700A/710A

DET 840P

It still takes 11 hours to do.

This was jjs's proposal way back in November. The 38/39 left both ends at 6:15am. The ends were late but before midnight.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66254-phl-chi-route-options/?p=634723

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Progress so far:

I'm hoping we're all in agreement on the new Liberty Limited and rescheduled Cardinal schedules.

The LL will serve CLE and TOL outside of the graveyard shift and will travel from Ohio to Chicago via Michigan and to Philadelphia/New York via Pittsburgh. The train is scheduled to travel overnight between PGH and PHL.

The new Cardinal will serve CIN outside of the graveyard shift and will travel west to Chicago via Indy and east to WAS/NYP/PHL via Charlottesville. The train is scheduled to travel overnight through West Virginia. Hopefully, through cars will branch off at IND to go to STL and connect with the Texas Eagle.

The next idea is how to implement service between CLE and CIN (3-C, including potentially Columbus/Dayton). I proposed through cars to/from the Liberty Limited at CLE. Another proposal is a separate CIN-NYP via CLE and the Empire Route. If this route is used instead of my through cars proposal, passengers south of CLE will be trading in PHL/Keystone Route for BUF/Empire Route (both options will end up in NYP). I would hope that a separate CIN-NYP train would give the chance to connect in CLE to/from the LL but that would require an additional train set. Another idea is to run it as a daytime train without sleepers but with the schedule it could potentially reach CIN and/or NYP in the graveyard shift. I am against that and would prefer overnight through upstate New York.

Also gaining steam is a proposed NYP-Michigan train going through CLE and DET. If the LL goes through Michigan, they will have a train to/from PHL and NYP and is scheduled to be in Ann Arbor around 4:20pm going east and 3:55pm coming from the east. Max listed NYP-DET schedules taking approximately 13 hrs from endpoint to endpoint which if the times can be done they seem to be nice schedules that keep everyone outside of the graveyard shift and have times not too early or too late.

I would eventually like to see service south of CIN to Louisville and Nashville but that should be further down the road. Maybe it would be better to have a train from IND (Hoosier State) to Louisville/Nashville first to give those cities/states service to CHI (a lot closer than NYP and depending on the times the opportunity for western transfers).

Hopefully this brings us up to speed.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

For what it's worth I know some of those Toledo passengers from upstate NY. Many of them are heading to Michigan.

(A Toledo-Ann Arbor-Lansing-Grand Rapids train which connected to the LSL would fill up instantly.)

Nate, I wanted to get your opinions on how do you think these trains will perform financially. You have said that you see a significant increase in the bottom line with the CL/Pennsylvanian connection (possibly profitable above the rail). Do you see my proposed LL train being profitable above the rail? If it gets added, how will that affect the Capitol Limited's bottom line? Does having both the CL and LL help both trains or hurt both trains' profitability? Others can chime in as well.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

I screwed up on the DET-NYP schedules. Big time.

I said DET-CLE was 1.5 hours, when in reality, DET-TOL was 1.5 hours, maybe 2.

But that's 40-50 mph. Are the tracks really that slow?

If so, that brings it up to 17 hours, totally not doable.

NYP 710A (pretty early already)

CLE 657P/715P

TOL 925P/945P

DET 1115P. That's too late.

I'm sorry I made the mistake. And would like to ask, is CLE-CIN all 79 mph capable?

Thanks.

 

[Seaboard92]

Parts of it are fairly close. Especially the CSX line south of Cleveland ex New York Central. I want to say it might have a passenger speed limit around 70 which I found odd for a line that never sees a passenger train.

Philly I love the name Liberty Limited. But everytime I read it I think of the ex PRR train from Washington to Chicago. I'm curious how you came up with it?

 

[Seaboard92]

And Philly thanks for digging my schedule up. As I couldn't find it at all

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Philly I love the name Liberty Limited. But everytime I read it I think of the ex PRR train from Washington to Chicago. I'm curious how you came up with it?

Giving it a Philadelphia name (Liberty Bell) hopefully will give Philadelphia residents the feeling it's their train as opposed to Broadway Limited (NY) or Three Rivers (Pittsburgh). But "Liberty" still works for New York (Statue of Liberty). I wouldn't mind it called the Broadway but Three Rivers doesn't sound like too good a name for me.

 

[neroden]

Nate, I wanted to get your opinions

I'm completely lost. There have been too many proposed schedules for too many different routes in too many different parts of Ohio and I can't keep 'em straight.

 

[jis]

Echoing neroden's point, could someone please create a consolidate time table like I did way back when, the one that Philly referred to in response to Max's New York - Detroit proposal? Thanks.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Well, I fixed mine and it took 17 hours, and that's too long for a day train. So we should terminate it in TOL or CLE, which is more manageable, but still a long trip.

Or do BUF to DET. Except BUF doesn't have overnight facilities so it would terminate in Niagara Falls NY instead where some Empires stop off overnight.

Or BUF to CHI if that works, but I don't know how great that is.

For Ohio to NYP, the Liberty Limited is there.

So this New York to Detroit train isn't consolidated in my mind yet, but the Liberty Limited and rescheduled Cardinal is.

 

[jis]

Why is the 17 hours even relevant. It is not like there will be a huge number of people traveling end to end. I expect a lot of the traffic will be mid point to mid point or midpoint to one end or the other.

This hypothetical train is only about two hours longer than the Palmetto, and if the Palmetto were extended to Jacksonville like it was for a time, it would be about 17 hours or a bit more too.

Just like the Palmetto has a choice of either terminating in Savannah for 15 hours or Jacksonville for 17 hours plus, this hypothetical rain has a choice of terminating at Toledo for about 15 hours or Detroit for about 17 hours.

And existence or not of this hypothetical train should not detract form considering another hypothetical day train from Chicago to Niagara Falls or some such.

My standing assumption is that it will be quite a while before a northeast to southwest Ohio train will materialize. There is a greater chance of enhancing service on the Buffalo or Pittsburgh to Toledo/Detroit sector

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Well, Philly doesn't like long day trains. I think it's good enough, (it's for upstate NY not for NYP) so NYP can be a bad time, in my opinion.

NYP 610A

ALB 850A/935A

BUF 225P/230P

CLE 558P/615P

TOL 825P/845P

DET 1015P

DET 750A

TOL 920A/950A

CLE 1205P/1220P

BUF 316P/321P

ALB 820P/915P got rid of the padding

NYP 1155P

Very similar to the NYP to CIN schedule Philly didn't like.

This train isn't for NYP. The Liberty Limited is.

Or terminate it in ALB?

 

[jis]

I agree. Besides, New Yorkers have a huge problem catching a train at 6 am anyway. So why worry about New Yorkers? A good day train en route is a good thing to have. If Philly doesn't like it, well that is one opinion and that is fine. Does not mean everyone else has to fall in line.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Nate, I wanted to get your opinions

I'm completely lost. There have been too many proposed schedules for too many different routes in too many different parts of Ohio and I can't keep 'em straight.

OK, start with just my Liberty Limited proposal. What do you see as the financial performance of the train when compared to the current CHI-NEC trains (LSL, CL, Cardinal)?