Upcoming 20th for Sunset / Bayou Canot tradgedy

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Besides, even in a perfectly locked swing bridge, a slightly misaligned Miter Rail will cause a derailment, as was demonstrated by Amtrak on the Portal Swing Bridge a decade or so back, which landed an AEM-7 and a couple of Amfleets in the mud beside the Hackensack River.
 
When a bridge superstructure is impacted by something with the momentum of a moving barge, the structure is going to displace. That is fundamental physics and structural engineering. The displacement may have been greater due to the reduced rotational resistance, but even had the bridge been fixed against rotation, the barge impact would have displaced it, and the end result would have been the same. Even six inches of displacement would derail a train. ............. The problem was the barge hitting the bridge. The condition of the bridge was not a major factor in the outcome of the accident.
If this in fact is true, and a qualified engineer would be more proficient in these matters than myself, then the discussion is resolved. I had a hard time though because the barges were moving so slow that the inertia's power lay on mass or weight alone.
 
George, if you have a link to the report, I'd love to read it. It isn't on the site you specified. All I have been able to find is a short summary. Searching for the report number (RAR-94-01) has been equally fruitless.
The NTSB website has indeed relegated it to a summary rather than the whole cover to cover.

And for the record, I/me have a hard time understanding how the unused spinning/rotating/turning feature, which lowers the force threshold needed to pivot the span and thus the track out of alignment - is insignificant. The bridge's physical reaction to barge contact was not only a rail kink, but it put a large steel gerder in the gauge. while not the total cause, it was a significant contributor of the outcome.

I know that all of this falls under an "... it would've been nice if they had done..." thing. But that's the whole function of investigating, which is to find those nice things that would ensure as close to a faultless element as possible. Less funerals, less boxes of kleenex, band-aids, body bags, anti-anxiety pills, etc.
When a bridge superstructure is impacted by something with the momentum of a moving barge, the structure is going to displace. That is fundamental physics and structural engineering. The displacement may have been greater due to the reduced rotational resistance, but even had the bridge been fixed against rotation, the barge impact would have displaced it, and the end result would have been the same. Even six inches of displacement would derail a train.

The story about the swing span not being fixed makes for a good story in the mass media (witness its constant repetition at AU), but engineering-types know it is just hype. The problem was the barge hitting the bridge. The condition of the bridge was not a major factor in the outcome of the accident.
That would depend a lot on the speed of the barge and the angle of impact. All information that I'm sure that is in the report that doesn't seem to be available.
 
When a bridge superstructure is impacted by something with the momentum of a moving barge, the structure is going to displace. That is fundamental physics and structural engineering. The displacement may have been greater due to the reduced rotational resistance, but even had the bridge been fixed against rotation, the barge impact would have displaced it, and the end result would have been the same. Even six inches of displacement would derail a train. ............. The problem was the barge hitting the bridge. The condition of the bridge was not a major factor in the outcome of the accident.
If this in fact is true, and a qualified engineer would be more proficient in these matters than myself, then the discussion is resolved. I had a hard time though because the barges were moving so slow that the inertia's power lay on mass or weight alone.
NE933,

George Harris is that qualified engineer, and I don't mean a locomotive engineer. Mr. Harris makes his living by building railroads. Just like I would never want to compete against Bill Haithcoat if the Jeopardy topic was "Southern Railroads" I would not wish to compete, nor could I hope to, against George if the topic were "how to build a railroad."

If George tells me that there is nothing that he can do to stop that bridge from moving due to the impact, save maybe a brick wall 10 feet away in the channel, I believe him. He would know!
 
Sounds like a job for the FOIA. ^_^
You don't need an FOIA. NTSB reports are already public records. you just have to write to them requesting a copy. It is just that the in many cases the entire report is not available on the web.
Actually that was intended more of an inside joke than a serious suggestion. -_-
 
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NE933,

George Harris is that qualified engineer, and I don't mean a locomotive engineer. Mr. Harris makes his living by building railroads. Just like I would never want to compete against Bill Haithcoat if the Jeopardy topic was "Southern Railroads" I would not wish to compete, nor could I hope to, against George if the topic were "how to build a railroad."
Oh, I trust both you and George. I didn't mean to appear competing, rather a mastery of what happened, which includes challenging any beliefs which seem without merit.

Mr. Harris, or if i may call you George, I have great respect for your craft, knowledge. Kudos to all the work you and your fellow craftspeople do in making our rail and other transportation systems safer.
 
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In the course of getting my model Genesis units repainted (for use in a model of the Auto Train), some units were renumbered, based partly on what the custom painter had left in terms of the proper custom run decals (this was in O scale, so most of what was needed wasn't available off the shelf).

I didn't do any research on wrecked locomotives though, and after posting the photos of the completed units on the O gauge Railroading forum, it was pointed out that one of them was numbered 819, the unit destroyed in this wreck o_O. I was reminded of this in a Railroad.net forum post asking if anyone's models' prototypes had been involved in an accident/wreck.

I'm hoping not too many people notice when it shows up on YouTube later this year...

---PCJ
 
George, if you have a link to the report, I'd love to read it. It isn't on the site you specified. All I have been able to find is a short summary. Searching for the report number (RAR-94-01) has been equally fruitless.
The NTSB website has indeed relegated it to a summary rather than the whole cover to cover.

And for the record, I/me have a hard time understanding how the unused spinning/rotating/turning feature, which lowers the force threshold needed to pivot the span and thus the track out of alignment - is insignificant. The bridge's physical reaction to barge contact was not only a rail kink, but it put a large steel gerder in the gauge. while not the total cause, it was a significant contributor of the outcome.

I know that all of this falls under an "... it would've been nice if they had done..." thing. But that's the whole function of investigating, which is to find those nice things that would ensure as close to a faultless element as possible. Less funerals, less boxes of kleenex, band-aids, body bags, anti-anxiety pills, etc.
Try this:

http://dotlibrary.specialcollection.net

then go down the list and click on I.C.C Historical Railroad investigation Reports (1911-1994)

When this window opens up, you will see a list of years. Go to near the bottom and click on 1993. Whe you see the subheads under here, click on AMTRAK.

The accident report will then appear in full. If you want it as it appears, click on "Link to PDF version" However, the quality of the PDF is not that great.

You get a better copy if you do "edit", then "Select all", then "copy" and past the whole thing into a word file. The quality of the pictures adn drawing is much better in this than in teh PDF file.

Look at Figure 7, on page 15 as numbered in the PDF file and the 19th page of the pdf. (I say this so you can locate how far down in the file to look in the non-pdf version, or your word file if you have copied it. It is not clear in the pdf version, but in the other you can clearly see the scuff on the pier end, the pads on which the knocked out span rested, and the bearings on which the adjacent through truss is mounted. Now go a little furthere down in the file and look at figure 8, which shows the dent in the end of the barge where it struck the pier end.

The lead port (WGN 285) and starboard (WGN 208) barges (see figure 8) were slightly dented where they struck the bridge's concrete piers, and the center lead barge (WGN 258) had six marks on its headlog where it struck the vertical stiffeners on the bridge span (see figure 4).
These represent the front three barges in tow. I believe the dent you see in Figure 8 is the barge that struck the pier, although the caption is not clear in that matter. If you look at the drawing in Figure 4, you will see that the front of the barge tow is wider than the span between end pier and center pivot pier. Hence, much of the momentum was dissapated by striking these two piers. Again, not really clear, but since the center barge, which is the one that hit the superstructure was essentially centered on the span, it probably took it off the center pivot pier as well as the end pier. It could be that the span was so mangled by the train that this could not be determined. It could also be that whether only the end moved or the span pivoted was not considered in the analysis. I am inclined to believe that if the barge tow was futher to the left when it struck the bridge such that the center pier was the one that struck the pier, it would have likely taken out the truss span as well, as the barge that hit the pier would have hit that span instead. Note that in the quoted sentence that the center barge had six marks where it had struck the superstructure of the span. Also note that, in Figure 5, the pivot pier appears to be gone, and least almost all of it above the water. The coach beyond it that is mostly out of the water but turned almost 90 degrees to the track appears to be resting on the remnants of this pier and the girders. Otherwise, it would be mostly submerged.

Barges are built TOUGH. Even though the series of barges lashed together is called a "tow", they are actually pushed by the towboad, not pulled.

There has also been an issue made that the signals did not drop to red becuase the rail, being welded did not break. Again, somewhere between debatable and nonsense. It is entirely likely that joint rail would have stayed together.

I do have more than the average amount of interest in this accident because my in-laws are in Pensacola and, although I did not know the people, a couple of the deaths were frieds of some of them.

Consider the absolute coming together of the random and unpredicitble. This was a three times a week train in a situation where all the factors had to come together ina matter of minutes.
 
One of the sources of the fanciful theory about bridge span anchoring or lack thereof is the Wikipedia article on this subject. Interestingly, the same article list all sorts of recommendations to various organizations that came out of the NTSB. And naturally there is no mention of this alleged bridge span anchoring issue and any resulting recommendation. Somehow even that does not seem to deter the managers of that page at Wiki to do a review of actual facts of the matter and make corrections.

BTW mods.... could we please replace the word "Canal" in the title by the word "Canot" which is the actual name of the Bayou in question? Thanks.
 
Try this:

http://dotlibrary.specialcollection.net

then go down the list and click on I.C.C Historical Railroad investigation Reports (1911-1994)

When this window opens up, you will see a list of years. Go to near the bottom and click on 1993. Whe you see the subheads under here, click on AMTRAK.

The accident report will then appear in full. If you want it as it appears, click on "Link to PDF version" However, the quality of the PDF is not that great.

You get a better copy if you do "edit", then "Select all", then "copy" and past the whole thing into a word file. The quality of the pictures adn drawing is much better in this than in teh PDF file.
THANKS!!!!

I actually found this page at home, but for some reason Safari doesn't render the link to the PDF on that page (all you see is the table at the top). Tried it at work and finally was able to put my hands on it.

Somehow even that does not seem to deter the managers of that page at Wiki to do a review of actual facts of the matter and make corrections.
The good thing about wikipedia is that anyone can review those facts and make corrections. Now that I have the primary source in hand, maybe I'll find the time to do just that. :)
 
The good thing about wikipedia is that anyone can review those facts and make corrections. Now that I have the primary source in hand, maybe I'll find the time to do just that. :)
There is so much incorrect information, missing information, obsolete information and such like in the railroad stuff in Wiki that it would take a couple of years full time to hope to get it fixed. There is some worthwhile information there, and some worthwhile links to useful stuff that it is not a complete loss. When doing an on-line ssearch, you find that usually the real stuff is several lines down the page if not several pages down from the wiki item.
 
The good thing about wikipedia is that anyone can review those facts and make corrections. Now that I have the primary source in hand, maybe I'll find the time to do just that. :)
There is so much incorrect information, missing information, obsolete information and such like in the railroad stuff in Wiki that it would take a couple of years full time to hope to get it fixed. There is some worthwhile information there, and some worthwhile links to useful stuff that it is not a complete loss. When doing an on-line ssearch, you find that usually the real stuff is several lines down the page if not several pages down from the wiki item.
Railroad articles are often a complete mess at Wikipedia, partly because there are so many people who obsessively track the smallest details down (locomotive fleets are a good example), which a) quickly go out of date (not so good for readers) and b) are often not fit for inclusion anyway, which gives us editors massive headaches, and partly because the majority of the topics (eg, the hundreds of little American regional railroads) are not of general interest, and thus are not frequently maintained. And that's just for US topics. International railroad articles, especially Africa and Asia, are often a disaster zone, because the required sources don't exist in English, or sometimes at all. So you have some people who say "but it's very notable in x country (India being a frequent source of these debates)," but who don't provide sources, and an equal number of people who say "but we have no proof!" and everyone ends up at loggerheads and the reader gets a junk article.
 
The good thing about wikipedia is that anyone can review those facts and make corrections. Now that I have the primary source in hand, maybe I'll find the time to do just that. :)
There is so much incorrect information, missing information, obsolete information and such like in the railroad stuff in Wiki that it would take a couple of years full time to hope to get it fixed. There is some worthwhile information there, and some worthwhile links to useful stuff that it is not a complete loss. When doing an on-line ssearch, you find that usually the real stuff is several lines down the page if not several pages down from the wiki item.
Now how much of those imperfections apply to this event? The Wiki essay is not nearly as deep as the NTSB report of 60+ pages, but if my local newspaper or even a national magazine were to run something on it, would screw up way many more times than any perceived Wiki article.

Whenever I use Wikipedia to research something I find they delve far down into things like cause/effect, scientific background, that can be read by the average man. Look up the Bhopal disaster in India of 1983, in which chemical plant there had released a toxic cloud of poison gasses which killed thousands. The explanation was thorough, all the way into the molecular compounds of the mixtures involved.

The Bayout Canut tradgedy was treated the same. If something is incorrect, then please somebody here contact them with proof that the info is wrong, and then the record according to Wiki can be fixed.
 
The Bayout Canut tradgedy was treated the same. If something is incorrect, then please somebody here contact them with proof that the info is wrong, and then the record according to Wiki can be fixed.
Yup, I'll take care of it as soon as it rises above the cut line in my enormous list of things to do :) Meanwhile of course someone else can take it on if they have more time on their hand.

Trust me, I spend considerable amount of time on Wiki articles though I do try to stay far away from rail articles - many are way too much in disarray to try to fix, unless one has oodles of time on hand. It may or may not play out as smoothly as Wiki claims it should. Depends on how near and dear to the heart of the vocal members of the editorial group dealing with that article are about a particular mis-statement.

By the way the word is "tragedy" not "tradgedy". I had thought that it was a typo in the thread title, but now I see that it is at least a consistently repeated typo.
 
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If only I had a dime for every time I heard someone complain about the supposed inaccuracies of Wikipedia while simultaneously refusing to do anything about them. Or every time I heard someone with thousands upon thousands of posts talk about their lack of available time. :lol:
 
If only I had a dime for every time I heard someone complain about the supposed inaccuracies of Wikipedia while simultaneously refusing to do anything about them. Or every time I heard someone with thousands upon thousands of posts talk about their lack of available time. :lol:
Clearly you don't, see? That should tell you something :lol:

Posting a three liner here is different from arm wrestling a Wiki article editorial team. Try it for a non-trivial change and then try collecting your dimes. :p
 
If only I had a dime for every time I heard someone complain about the supposed inaccuracies of Wikipedia while simultaneously refusing to do anything about them. Or every time I heard someone with thousands upon thousands of posts talk about their lack of available time. :lol:
Clearly you don't, see? That should tell you something :lol: Posting a three liner here is different from arm wrestling a Wiki article editorial team. Try it for a non-trivial change and then try collecting your dimes. :p
Wikipedia is the sum of mankind's knowledge minus the sum of our biases and arrogance. ^_^
 
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