Viewliner II - Part 1 - Initial Production and Delivery

[PVD]

An additional question would be 40 years out, how much of the design is still under any type of IP protection, and were RTU's granted to Amtrak when they bought the original cars. It is not unusual in large scale contracting, particular government procurement, or a procurement where payment was made for research and development costs to grant permanent "Right to Use" on anything derived from that design work. While someone may "own' a design, they may have no power to stop someone else who has been granted those rights from using it. It has been a long time, not sure how much of the original anyone would really want anyway.

 

[jis]

Why on earth anybody except some select rail and specifically Budd foamers would want to produce more Amfleets of course is well beyond my imagination. I would strongly recommend defunding Amtrak if they are crazy enough to try to get someone to build more Amfleets. In terms of creature comforts they are inferior cars with an odd shape that does not take full advantage of the available loading gauge and that makes it impossible to fix some of the problems. They have served their purpose. Let us not try to perpetuate the mistakes of the 70s when everything had to look like an airliner fuselage.

 

[PVD]

The same folks will spend hours telling you why it was better when automobiles had bias ply tires, drum brakes on all 4, an AM radio, 2 or 3speed auto, and power steering that left you wondering where the road was. Sentimentality, and an unwillingness to acknowledge that it isn't 1965 anymore, nor will it be anytime soon.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Yep, no more Beer cans disguised as a Passenger Rail car!

 

[TylerP42]

Amtrak 29 will have deadhead Bag 61058 for LAX.

 

[Andrew]

I wonder if Amtrak were to place an order for new coaches, how long it would take all of them to enter revenue service.

 

[CCC1007]

Somewhere between 0 and infinity years.

The existing order was scheduled for four years, yet almost every contact like this slips on schedule, so a good estimate would be double the original contract timeline.

 

[MikefromCrete]

If Amtrak buys any more new cars from the slow-poke CAF assembly line, there's not a person alive today who will see the completed order.

 

[neroden]

I don't know if any old plans meet the new specs.

Not in detail, obviously, but that's not that important. Viewliner IIs are close enough for adaptation.
The new specs allow for a certain amount of body shape variation, but last time I looked at the spec, Amfleet/Metroliner tube shape would NOT be allowed by the spec.

 

[Andrew]

I don't know if any old plans meet the new specs.

Not in detail, obviously, but that's not that important. Viewliner IIs are close enough for adaptation.
The new specs allow for a certain amount of body shape variation, but last time I looked at the spec, Amfleet/Metroliner tube shape would NOT be allowed by the spec.

Why is that the case?

I'd bet Siemens and Alstom both bid on the new Amfleet replacement.

 

[CCC1007]

They haven't bid on it because there is nothing to bid on yet. They are likely candidates to bid.

 

[TylerP42]

I feel like I'd like V2 coaches.

 

[TylerP42]

I talked to a conductor today and this is what he had to say about the V2 Baggage cars:

"The crews love the new baggage cars. It hasn't got cold enough to see how well they hold heat but so far the climate control in them is great. There has been some issues with crews properly taking the care to latch the doors closed properly."

also,

"It's very well lit and as comfortable climate wise as a coach. They seem to ride well. We had an issue with New York not using the new shelves for the baggage. There's still mixed reviews on the shelves. I think some might be too high, But overall it's a very improved design. I didn't get to work the old cars much but they were dirty. Leaked alot in rain. We're poorly lit."

 

[jis]

How can they be as happy as with climate control in Coaches when it does not have any A/C system?

 

[neroden]

Probably the new baggage cars are insulated and air-sealed. The old baggage cars were basically uninsulated and leaky. That's actually more important to climate control than having A/C or even heat.

 

[neroden]

" We had an issue with New York not using the new shelves for the baggage."

Sounds like some more training is needed.

 

[Andrew]

Is it likely for Amtrak to receive a discount if it orders hundred of Amfleet coaches at once? Does anyone know what a typical coach today costs?

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Is it likely for Amtrak to receive a discount if it orders hundred of Amfleet coaches at once? Does anyone know what a typical coach today costs?

You would probably enjoy reading the old fleet plan documents under About Amtrak at Amtrak.com. Unless the old ones have scrolled off into eternity. At one point there was a long discussion of the economies of scale from ordering enuff to get 100 a year for 6 or 7 years, iirc. A lower rate than 100, the likely bidders had told Amtrak, would mean a higher cost per car. (So I guess we can count on Congress to only authorize buying 50 a year in order to waste more money and blame it on Amtrak. LOL.)

Of course you didn't mean to ask what if Amtrak ordered hundreds of Amfleet coaches at once. No way will it order more Amfleets; they are finished. It will order Amfleet replacements. New single-level coaches, to be generic.

Anyway, this isn't like buying a new automobile, or a hundred, where you could go down to your Toyota or Chevy dealer and get a price (subject to haggling). For rail cars, there's no dealers, no windshield sticker prices. Amtrak invites bidders and collects a lot of bid prices before choosing to buy, or not to buy, from the lowest bidder.

So there isn't, and nobody has, a publicly disclosed price on a new single level car. And that gets back to, there's one price for 1 of them and a much lower price for 100 or 500 of them.

We know that the bid for the 130 assorted Viewliner IIs was ~$300 million, or $2.3 million each. But more than half of those were baggage cars, cheaper, and 25 were diners, very pricey, and 25 sleepers and 25 bag-dorms, and not a coach among them. So we don't know much, except surely more than $2.3 million. Then remember that the CAF bid is 5 or 6 years old by now, and material costs have crept up, despite the sad shape of the economy.

There is the more recent order from Brightline All Aboard Florida for a few dozen coaches from Siemens. If they revealed the amount of the order, you can divide the total dollar amount by the number of coaches and have a good figure. But I don't recall that either party disclosed the value of the deal.

Why don't you go with ~$3 million per coach, as a back-of-the-envelop rough estimate. Then if ever a bid comes in for less, we'll all be happy.

 

[Andrew]

Is it likely for Amtrak to receive a discount if it orders hundred of Amfleet coaches at once? Does anyone know what a typical coach today costs?

You would probably enjoy reading the old fleet plan documents under About Amtrak at Amtrak.com. Unless the old ones have scrolled off into eternity. At one point there was a long discussion of the economies of scale from ordering enuff to get 100 a year for 6 or 7 years, iirc. A lower rate than 100, the likely bidders had told Amtrak, would mean a higher cost per car. (So I guess we can count on Congress to only authorize buying 50 a year in order to waste more money and blame it on Amtrak. LOL.)

Of course you didn't mean to ask what if Amtrak ordered hundreds of Amfleet coaches at once. No way will it order more Amfleets; they are finished. It will order Amfleet replacements. New single-level coaches, to be generic.

Anyway, this isn't like buying a new automobile, or a hundred, where you could go down to your Toyota or Chevy dealer and get a price (subject to haggling). For rail cars, there's no dealers, no windshield sticker prices. Amtrak invites bidders and collects a lot of bid prices before choosing to buy, or not to buy, from the lowest bidder.

So there isn't, and nobody has, a publicly disclosed price on a new single level car. And that gets back to, there's one price for 1 of them and a much lower price for 100 or 500 of them.

We know that the bid for the 130 assorted Viewliner IIs was ~$300 million, or $2.3 million each. But more than half of those were baggage cars, cheaper, and 25 were diners, very pricey, and 25 sleepers and 25 bag-dorms, and not a coach among them. So we don't know much, except surely more than $2.3 million. Then remember that the CAF bid is 5 or 6 years old by now, and material costs have crept up, despite the sad shape of the economy.

There is the more recent order from Brightline All Aboard Florida for a few dozen coaches from Siemens. If they revealed the amount of the order, you can divide the total dollar amount by the number of coaches and have a good figure. But I don't recall that either party disclosed the value of the deal.

Why don't you go with ~$3 million per coach, as a back-of-the-envelop rough estimate. Then if ever a bid comes in for less, we'll all be happy.

Your right. I meant Amfleet replacements...

Are you saying that you think a passenger coach would be priced differently than a sleeping car? Also, hopefully a company like Siemens, Bombardier, or Alstom, etc. would give Amtrak a huge discount if Amtrak ordered hundreds of new passenger coaches--instead of just dozens.

 

[CCC1007]

Is it likely for Amtrak to receive a discount if it orders hundred of Amfleet coaches at once? Does anyone know what a typical coach today costs?

You would probably enjoy reading the old fleet plan documents under About Amtrak at Amtrak.com. Unless the old ones have scrolled off into eternity. At one point there was a long discussion of the economies of scale from ordering enuff to get 100 a year for 6 or 7 years, iirc. A lower rate than 100, the likely bidders had told Amtrak, would mean a higher cost per car. (So I guess we can count on Congress to only authorize buying 50 a year in order to waste more money and blame it on Amtrak. LOL.)
Of course you didn't mean to ask what if Amtrak ordered hundreds of Amfleet coaches at once. No way will it order more Amfleets; they are finished. It will order Amfleet replacements. New single-level coaches, to be generic.

Anyway, this isn't like buying a new automobile, or a hundred, where you could go down to your Toyota or Chevy dealer and get a price (subject to haggling). For rail cars, there's no dealers, no windshield sticker prices. Amtrak invites bidders and collects a lot of bid prices before choosing to buy, or not to buy, from the lowest bidder.

So there isn't, and nobody has, a publicly disclosed price on a new single level car. And that gets back to, there's one price for 1 of them and a much lower price for 100 or 500 of them.

We know that the bid for the 130 assorted Viewliner IIs was ~$300 million, or $2.3 million each. But more than half of those were baggage cars, cheaper, and 25 were diners, very pricey, and 25 sleepers and 25 bag-dorms, and not a coach among them. So we don't know much, except surely more than $2.3 million. Then remember that the CAF bid is 5 or 6 years old by now, and material costs have crept up, despite the sad shape of the economy.

There is the more recent order from Brightline All Aboard Florida for a few dozen coaches from Siemens. If they revealed the amount of the order, you can divide the total dollar amount by the number of coaches and have a good figure. But I don't recall that either party disclosed the value of the deal.

Why don't you go with ~$3 million per coach, as a back-of-the-envelop rough estimate. Then if ever a bid comes in for less, we'll all be happy.

Your right. I meant Amfleet replacements...

Are you saying that you think a passenger coach would be priced differently than a sleeping car? Also, hopefully a company like Siemens, Bombardier, or Alstom, etc. would give Amtrak a huge discount if Amtrak ordered hundreds of new passenger coaches--instead of just dozens.

yes, coaches are less complicated and therefore less expensive to build.

 

[west point]

There are major problems measuring purchase of equipment. The ACS-64s have a very long extended warranty that increased the capital costs but reduced the operating costs long term. The present mood in congress is for there to be at least an operating "profit".

How much of regular maintenance done by Amtrak on the ACS-64s is charged back to Siemens ? Any guess ?

The same warranty considerations may apply to the present V-2s as well. Anyone know ?

Now if new cars meet the same warranty requirements it will be interesting.

From what the RFP for the new Acella-2s says Amtrak is looking for an extended warranty as well.

At the quoted $3M per car it will take $300M capital appropriation per year to build the required 100 cars per year. How in the world can Amtrak even guarantee that $300M.

 

[Andrew]

There are major problems measuring purchase of equipment. The ACS-64s have a very long extended warranty that increased the capital costs but reduced the operating costs long term. The present mood in congress is for there to be at least an operating "profit".

How much of regular maintenance done by Amtrak on the ACS-64s is charged back to Siemens ? Any guess ?

The same warranty considerations may apply to the present V-2s as well. Anyone know ?

Now if new cars meet the same warranty requirements it will be interesting.

From what the RFP for the new Acella-2s says Amtrak is looking for an extended warranty as well.

At the quoted $3M per car it will take $300M capital appropriation per year to build the required 100 cars per year. How in the world can Amtrak even guarantee that $300M.

Well, if Amtrak ends up ordering HUNDREDS of new coaches, then I expect them to receive a large discount--thus reducing the price per coach to $2.5 million or even less, etc.

Also, Congress is (hopefully) going to reauthorize Amtrak so that it can reinvest NEC profits back into Gateway. If this occurs, Amtrak can take out a large RRIF Loan--with debt service beginning five years after all of the new coaches have entered service.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Is it likely for Amtrak to receive a discount if it orders hundreds of Amfleet coaches at once? Does anyone know what a typical coach today costs?

... the economies of scale from ordering enuff to get 100 a year for 6 or 7 years, iirc. A lower rate than 100, the likely bidders had told Amtrak, would mean a higher cost per car. ...

...

We know that the bid for the 130 assorted Viewliner IIs was ~$300 million, or $2.3 million each. But more than half of those were baggage cars, cheaper, and 25 were diners, very pricey, and 25 sleepers and 25 bag-dorms, and not a coach among them.

...

Are you saying that you think a passenger coach would be priced differently than a sleeping car? Also, hopefully a company like Siemens, Bombardier, or Alstom, etc. would give Amtrak a huge discount if Amtrak ordered hundreds of new passenger coaches--instead of just dozens.

Yes, different prices. Even without in-room toilets, the Viewliner sleepers will have plumbing to the wash basins; complicated seats that fold into beds and beds that fold down from the ceiling; showers in each car; etc. Different stuff from coaches, so different costs.

And yes, like almost every product, a volume discount applies. The fleet study suggested that the magic number for the cheapest unit price would be 100 coaches a year for 6 or 7 years. For small batches the cost goes up. If small batches weren't so costly and therefore wasteful, we'd have long ago seen Amtrak order another 50 or so single-level coaches. Amtrak could easily fill another 50 coaches on longer trains and perhaps add a couple of state-supported routes.

Buying a batch of Viewliner II sleepers and diners was worth doing because the sleepers are a high-mark-up product, and Amtrak only needs 100, or at the very most 200, for the Eastern LD routes. But if you need 700 coaches or more, buying them 50 or so from time to time is such a stupid policy that only a passenger-rail hating CongresssCritter could want to see it done that way, in order to sabotage Amtrak.

 

[jis]

Amtrak has already been reauthorized for five years. The next reauthorization is many years away.

 

[Andrew]

Amtrak has already been reauthorized for five years. The next reauthorization is many years away.

Are you referring to the Fast Act?

Amtrak has to apply for the new funding structure for FY 2017, so hopefully Amtrak can begin to reinvest their NEC profits back into Gateway in the near future.