Viewliners. Why?

[PetalumaLoco]

I don't "like" the walk to the men's room at work; but that doesn't mean I want a toilet sitting in my office next to my desk!

 

[Palmland]

Amazing how concerned we have gotten about sanitary issues in the past few years. The roomettes in the Pullman company sleepers were introduced in the late 1930's and were considered a great innovation as the passenger had the privacy of his own room, a sink , and a toilet. It served the public well until they were taken out of service when the last of the heritage cars disappeared around 2000.

Yes it is awkward when two are in the room (the heritage cars of course were designed for only one). I would like to see a return to a few 'deluxe' roomette for a single traveler in the new cars with sink/toilet and one berth. Most of the rooms would be a standard or 'budget' roomette and would be like the ones now in service with two berths minus the toilet. For two traveling together you get a bedroom if you want all the conveniences.

 

[Big Iron]

Amazing how concerned we have gotten about sanitary issues in the past few years. The roomettes in the Pullman company sleepers were introduced in the late 1930's and were considered a great innovation as the passenger had the privacy of his own room, a sink , and a toilet. It served the public well until they were taken out of service when the last of the heritage cars disappeared around 2000.
Yes it is awkward when two are in the room (the heritage cars of course were designed for only one). I would like to see a return to a few 'deluxe' roomette for a single traveler in the new cars with sink/toilet and one berth. Most of the rooms would be a standard or 'budget' roomette and would be like the ones now in service with two berths minus the toilet. For two traveling together you get a bedroom if you want all the conveniences.

If "jis" is correct that the new viewliners will not have in room toilets for the roomettes then Amtrak has already decided to remove some revenue space for common toilet facilities. To please most, on either side of the discussion, have both in room and common facilities. I don't recall similar discussions in this forum about the slumbercoaches in which double rooms had a similar set up as the viewliner. Probably because there was a common facility in the slumbercoach.

My only ride in a viewliner was on the Twilight Shoreliner with my son and one of us stepped into the lounge when the need arose. My next trip, in January, will be solo on the Cardinal and I'm looking forward to my own facilities.

 

[AlanB]

^^Having in-room bathrooms not only raises engineering and maintenance issues, it's a cleaning matter. I would hope they save a little bit of time and money not having to go through and thoroughly clean all of the bathrooms (while hoping they do a decent job on the remaining toilets).

I didn't really need to have a bathroom in my roomette when I was traveling earlier this summer. There was a sufficient number of bathrooms on the car (and they were cleaner than the ones I usually encounter in coach).

Yeah, but that was obviously in a Superliner sleeping car that has five public restrooms. In the new Viewliners there are going to be supposedly two restrooms for use by all the roomette passengers. Just trying to get in there to brush your teeth in the morning is going to be a big hassle. In my opinion it's a big downgrade. Bad idea by Amtrak.

If all rooms are at capacity that's 22 passengers, and assuming that everyone woke up at exactly the same time, each bathroom would have to handle 11 people.

Contrast that with the Superliner car which only has 4 public restrooms (1 upstairs, 3 down), not 5, and at maximum capacity of 30 passengers would see 7.5 people if all rooms were at capacity. Not a huge difference.

And it's very rare that every room on the train is ever filled to capacity, much less that everyone would wake up at the same time creating a huge rush on the facilities.

 

[Chatter163]

I'm accustomed to seeing differing, reasonable points of view . . . but I gotta admit I NEVER thought I'd see anyone who liked in-room toilets.

This sweeping statement is hardly indicative of someone who is either reasonable or appreciative of differing points of view.

They are unsanitary, plain and simple.

That is a statement that can absolutely be challenged.

You don't have to be a germ-a-phobe to realize toilets are something to be used, hands thoroughly washed, and then gotten away from. I'm pretty sure that's the consensus.

You would be pretty wrong. Several people here have already indicated their preference for the in-room toilet and sink, so there goes your consensus. It is not that we want to linger near a toilet; it is that we find them to be generally well-cleaned and the lid covers far more than the lid on an ordinary house commode.

It is a bit un-nerving to be in a small room that countless thousands have slept in before (to be fair, Amtrak seems to generally do a good job in cleaning them) . . . but to live/sleep in a room countless thousands have used as a BATHROOM?!

It is a bit unnerving for you, perhaps, but please do not speak for the rest of us. You speak somewhat melodramatically, and you certainly do not speak for me. Far fewer people use an in-roomette commode on any given trip than, say the restrooms in coach. I myself would prefer that smaller number of users. And said commode is in one corner of the roomette. When someone must use a bedpan, that certainly does not make the entire room contaminated. Finally, most of the people so far who have indicated their dissatisfaction with the Viewliner roomette toilets have done so on practical issues, particularly the issue of two people sharing a room. The issues that you have raised have not thus far been a major topic.

I just don't know how they EVER reached the decision to do that; they were likely trying to save public restroom space and make it revenue.

Perhaps because many of us prefer it? Amtrak's marketing research probably told them that Americans tend not to prefer shared facilities overnight and Amtrak thought that they would try it out. That is how "they EVER reached the decision to do that." One may certainly not prefer the arrangement, but the marketing research was likely arrived at through a sound qualitative model, such as a phenomenological study.

I don't "like" the walk to the men's room at work; but that doesn't mean I want a toilet sitting in my office next to my desk!

Great, but some of us do prefer having it in a roomette, especially for those who tend to go frequently or whose visits, for one reason or another, tend to take a long time.

I certainly do not mind that you do not prefer them, but this incredulous manner, sweeping statements and, above all, expression of utter astonishment that anyone could possibly see it any other way is, shall we say, something that needs to be flushed.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The Viewliner Roomette, as current, is a mildly updated version of the Double Slumbercoach. They designed them that way not to maximize revenue (although I'm sure they didn't ignore that!) but because this is the way things have been done.

The reason the Superliners did NOT have them was because the design of the car isolated the toilet facilities to one side of the car.

 

[x-press]

Just because a design dates from an overall better period of American Railroading doesn't mean the idea, itself is a good one. We've come a long way, health-wise, since the 1930's-1950's.

When someone must use a bedpan, that certainly does not make the entire room contaminated.

No, but it could certainly contaminate a pillow, if it was located right next to it, as the viewliner toilets are.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Just because a design dates from an overall better period of American Railroading doesn't mean the idea, itself is a good one. We've come a long way, health-wise, since the 1930's-1950's.

When someone must use a bedpan, that certainly does not make the entire room contaminated.

No, but it could certainly contaminate a pillow, if it was located right next to it, as the viewliner toilets are.

The head end of the bed is opposite, not adjacent, to the toilet. Unlike the Superliners, they are not interchangeable. The Beds narrow to make room for the toilet.

I submit to you that while you might think we have come a long way healthwise, I think it would be more apt to say that we have retrogressed in terms of the age where we stop whining about cooties. OMG! I am sleeping in a room where people have gone to the bathroom before! Puh-lease. A properly cleaned room, it doesn't make a jot of difference.

Furthermore, urine is sterile, as any doctor will tell you. I mean sterile to the point of you could clean wounds with the stuff. Disgusting to do so? Damned straight. Medically bad for you? Assuming you aren't heavily dehydrated, or in the habbit of drinking other peoples urine- an accepted method to stay hydrated in survival mode, by the way (atleast the first time around) - it is not medically bad to do this. Urine does contain toxins, but they are not deadly in small quantity. If you do drink other peoples urine, or your own, it becomes uncomfortable to repeat the process once, and downright untenable to do it a second- the toxin levels increase each cycle, naturally.

Fecal matter is less sterile, but is also less likely to get anywhere but the commode area. It is a moot point unless the person who stayed in the room had a highly contagious and resilient disease. You'd have to ingest it for it to hurt you otherwise. I personally am not in the habit of ingesting, or placing my mouth anywhere near, the commode area of anyplace. And in anycase, I'm pretty sure you could actually ingest a considerable amount of even that before it hurts you- trace amounts would do nothing.

The FDA is a draconian operation that loves to pick nits and demand even tiny possible health issues be immediately corrected- witness the ice coolers. If these toilets were an actual health issue by the people who like to wield their authority for the sheer joy of it whenever they have the opportunity, the in-room toilets would have been gone decades ago.

 

[Bob Dylan]

First a "War and Peace" thread on Toliet Paper, now one on toliets in sleepers!

Guess the OP who is opposed to toliets used by other folks never stays in a hotel,

never uses a public restroom and lives alone!LOL?To each his own but this Op is

wrong about the general consensus,Id much rather have a restroom in my sleeper

than use the so called toliets on airplanes and in most airports/bus stations and train stations!LOL

 

[MrFSS]

'Id much rather have a restroom in my sleeper than use the so called toilets on airplanes and in most airports/bus stations and train stations!LOL

That why we usually have a bedroom instead of a roomette.

 

[goodnightjohnwayne]

Does anyone actually have the diagrams from the Viewliner RFP? It seems pointless to argue about the presence or absence of in room facilities when there has been no official confirmation?

 

[jis]

Does anyone actually have the diagrams from the Viewliner RFP? It seems pointless to argue about the presence or absence of in room facilities when there has been no official confirmation?

They do exist and have been seen by a few but none are in a position at present to share them in a public forum.

If you believe arguments will cease after an official confirmation happens, you surely are kidding yourself :lol: or haven't spent enough time on these boards yet :unsure: . That is when the letter writing campaigns will begin asking that the orders be canceled until the shape of the cars exactly match someone's idea of what should be good for everyone Juuust being a bit hyperbolic here

 

[Tony]

If the new Viewliner sleepers no longer have toilets in the roomettes, would that make them be unable to be used interchangeably with the new Viewliners?

Not only would passengers who booked a roomette with a toilet be understandably unset of they find they don't have what they paid for, but there would be at least two less roomettes per car. The people who are booked for roomettes 11 and 12 would be mighty upset to find roomettes in the new Viewliner sleeper stopped at 10.

I can't believe that Amtrak "hates" the toilets so much, that they would forfeit being able to use the new and old Viewliners interchangeably.

 

[AlanB]

Only roomette #12 will be lost, it will become the attendant's room. What was the attendant's room, opposite the shower, will become the two public toilets.

And yes, most likely the new cars will be confined to specific routes and will not roam freely throughout all routes that currently use Viewliners, because of the different configuration.

That assumes that Amtrak isn't smart enough to do the right thing. For those that may not know, and as a reminder for those that do know, the Viewliner car is a modular car. That means that the rooms are not built inside the car. Each room is a self contained unit built elsewhere and simply slid into the car via a large access panel on one side of the car. That panel can be seen quite nicely in the following photo:

What this means is that instead of embarking on a refurbishment program for the existing Viewliner I's like Amtrak did with the Superliner I's, they could over order the number of room modules to the point where they would have enough to refurbish the existing 50 cars. This way instead of spending 3 to 4 months per car like they did with the Superliners, they would probably spend 3 to 4 weeks sliding out the old rooms and sliding in the new rooms. It would also be much cheaper I would expect too.

I haven't heard any suggestion of a rumor that Amtrak might do this, but again if someone is thinking down there in DC, it would be a great way to fix the differences between the two cars and refurbish them at the same time.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

Being modular also means that Amtrak can easily refurbish the new Viewliners, tossing out the dumb toilet-less roomette modules and replacing them with the far superior roomettes with toilets.

Dear Senator, you would not believe how the idiots at Amtrak misused the money you recently gave them to buy new Viewliners....

 

[jis]

Being modular also means that Amtrak can easily refurbish the new Viewliners, tossing out the dumb toilet-less roomette modules and replacing them with the far superior roomettes with toilets.
Dear Senator, you would not believe how the idiots at Amtrak misused the money you recently gave them to buy new Viewliners....

Sheesh, at least wait until they really give them the money. You are getting ahead of the curve here.

It is not quite certain that Amtrak will get enough money in the 2010 budget to order the Viewliners next year as things stand. Unless some of the money is restored by the reconciliation committee they might just have enough money to order the more critically needed 20 electric engines only.

Take a look at this NARP Hotline to get a feel for what has been removed from the planned amounts that Amtrak needed to place these orders.

 

[Guest_Will_*]

Another question about the new Viewliners...

Will there be more bedrooms in the new cars than the current ones? It just seems like the 2 current bedrooms isn't enough.

I don't really understand the reason for discontinuing the Viewliner toilets-are they really that unsanitary that Amtrak wants to take all of the toilets out of the V-Is? :huh:

 

[AlanB]

Will,

No, the new cars will not have any more Bedrooms than the current ones do. There simply isn't space in the car to add more. They'd really have to come out with a new variation that say added two more bedrooms and sacrificed 4 roomettes to do so.

And doing that complicates things when you have a limited fleet as now you have to keep at least one of each type of car on standby in a yard just in case one in use breaks down. Perhaps if Amtrak gets to exercise the options on the proposed contract they might be able to consider such a change, but I won't hold my breath either.

As for removing the toilet from the roomettes, I'm not sure if that's just to hold down costs, help deal with the constant freeze issues during winter, a response to those who don't like the idea of an open toilet in the room (especially when 2 people are in the room), or if it was a sanitary thing. For all I know, it may have even been a combination of two or more of the above factors.