What happens when there is no cafe on an LD?

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

I saw #20 go through today with no cafe car on it. I assume it was bad ordered from NOL, What happens when there is no cafe? Does the diner stay open to sell drinks and snacks? or do they just do with out cafe service?

 

[Rafi]

In this case, they just did without cafe service for the most part. The train was stocked with boxes of snacks to hand out to coach passengers, but nothing that required any sort of prep time.

Rafi

 

[Donctor]

I saw #20 go through today with no cafe car on it. I assume it was bad ordered from NOL, What happens when there is no cafe? Does the diner stay open to sell drinks and snacks? or do they just do with out cafe service?

49 into CHI and 48 out of CHI on May 15 did not have a diner. It was replaced with an Amfleet II lounge from the pool, which did duty as a Diner-Lite. The BOS section did not have a sleeper, so an extra one was added to the NYP section. The BOS section only had one Amfleet II coach, so it ran with a NEC coach as 4940/4840.

A year or two ago, I saw Sunnyside send 19 out with an Amfleet I coach in place of a baggage car. The baggage crew wasn't incredibly pleased.

 

[battalion51]

A year or two ago, I saw Sunnyside send 19 out with an Amfleet I coach in place of a baggage car. The baggage crew wasn't incredibly pleased.

You mean something like

 

[had8ley]

Back when the Crescent split in B'ham and ran to Mobile the lounge car went to Mobile. You don't want what Amtrak did to sub for a lounge car~ they put an LSA with some of her goodies in TWO booths at the far (coach) end of the diner (one booth for her wares and one for her to sit in.) Granted, the traffic is not really heavy at all times from B'ham to NOL but I happened to be on board at Mardi Gras when the diner LSA packed her up and sent her back to the coaches.

 

[dlagrua]

The CL is now running a CCC car for food service. That's the diner substitute on that route. Hopefully Beech Grove will have a refurbished dining car for the route soon. Those CCC cars are cramped and have very small kitchens. I do not believe that they were ever intended to be used as LD train food cars.

 

[printman2000]

The CL is now running a CCC car for food service. That's the diner substitute on that route. Hopefully Beech Grove will have a refurbished dining car for the route soon. Those CCC cars are cramped and have very small kitchens. I do not believe that they were ever intended to be used as LD train food cars.

I believe the kitchens (downstairs) are exactly the same as regular dining cars. I don't think anything was changed downstairs. Perhaps you are talking about the upstairs staff area?

 

[dlagrua]

The CL is now running a CCC car for food service. That's the diner substitute on that route. Hopefully Beech Grove will have a refurbished dining car for the route soon. Those CCC cars are cramped and have very small kitchens. I do not believe that they were ever intended to be used as LD train food cars.

I believe the kitchens (downstairs) are exactly the same as regular dining cars. I don't think anything was changed downstairs. Perhaps you are talking about the upstairs staff area?

I am referring to the snack/lunch bar area in the middle of the CCC car. See here:

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The CL is now running a CCC car for food service. That's the diner substitute on that route. Hopefully Beech Grove will have a refurbished dining car for the route soon. Those CCC cars are cramped and have very small kitchens. I do not believe that they were ever intended to be used as LD train food cars.

Actually, that's exactly what they were poorly designed to do. One of the poorly thought out ideas of the Kummant/Bush era.

 

[dlagrua]

The CL is now running a CCC car for food service. That's the diner substitute on that route. Hopefully Beech Grove will have a refurbished dining car for the route soon. Those CCC cars are cramped and have very small kitchens. I do not believe that they were ever intended to be used as LD train food cars.

Actually, that's exactly what they were poorly designed to do. One of the poorly thought out ideas of the Kummant/Bush era.

You are again correct. I did some research on the CCC cars and they were in fact designed to replace the dining cars on the LD trains. It is unbelievable that someone would come up with such a poor design for a dining car interior that contains an unusual seating arrangement and terrible utilization of floor space. I have no idea what they were thinking when this car was pressed into service.

We will be dining in one next month aboard the CL unless by stroke of luck a refurbished diner is made available by Beech Grove in the next few weeks. I know that the Beech Grove facility has hired quite a few mechanics this year so maybe the flow of rebuilt cars will greatly increase until Amtrak can get equipment.

 

[Donctor]

You are again correct. I did some research on the CCC cars and they were in fact designed to replace the dining cars on the LD trains. It is unbelievable that someone would come up with such a poor design for a dining car interior that contains an unusual seating arrangement and terrible utilization of floor space. I have no idea what they were thinking when this car was pressed into service. We will be dining in one next month aboard the CL unless by stroke of luck a refurbished diner is made available by Beech Grove in the next few weeks. I know that the Beech Grove facility has hired quite a few mechanics this year so maybe the flow of rebuilt cars will greatly increase until Amtrak can get equipment.

Someone "discovered" that Amtrak doesn't make a profit on food service cars. Many things were said (or "revealed") by Amtrak detractors, some of which were true, some of which were misconstrued, and many of which were factually incorrect. Congress decided that they didn't want to pay for two food service cars, and attempted (and subsequently failed) to control Amtrak food service. These cars were designed to act as the diner and cafe on LD trains. Given those ridiculous circumstances, the design isn't half bad. From what I understand, this was initially the idea behind the Diner-Lite cars (though they ended up being used when the diner pool thinned out).

 

[had8ley]

The CL is now running a CCC car for food service. That's the diner substitute on that route. Hopefully Beech Grove will have a refurbished dining car for the route soon. Those CCC cars are cramped and have very small kitchens. I do not believe that they were ever intended to be used as LD train food cars.

Actually, that's exactly what they were poorly designed to do. One of the poorly thought out ideas of the Kummant/Bush era.

Well Lion as the Fonz would say, "You are entirely correctomundo." Kummant was too busy eating out at any free meal he could get instead of paying attention to what went on in the hen house (or CCC in this case). I'm told his free-loading dining escapades contributed heavily to his demise. The UP officials I worked with all concurred that he would have been a better snake oil salesman if you could get him away from the cocktails and chicken dinner circuit. Amen...

 

[AlanB]

You are again correct. I did some research on the CCC cars and they were in fact designed to replace the dining cars on the LD trains. It is unbelievable that someone would come up with such a poor design for a dining car interior that contains an unusual seating arrangement and terrible utilization of floor space. I have no idea what they were thinking when this car was pressed into service. We will be dining in one next month aboard the CL unless by stroke of luck a refurbished diner is made available by Beech Grove in the next few weeks. I know that the Beech Grove facility has hired quite a few mechanics this year so maybe the flow of rebuilt cars will greatly increase until Amtrak can get equipment.

Someone "discovered" that Amtrak doesn't make a profit on food service cars. Many things were said (or "revealed") by Amtrak detractors, some of which were true, some of which were misconstrued, and many of which were factually incorrect. Congress decided that they didn't want to pay for two food service cars, and attempted (and subsequently failed) to control Amtrak food service. These cars were designed to act as the diner and cafe on LD trains. Given those ridiculous circumstances, the design isn't half bad. From what I understand, this was initially the idea behind the Diner-Lite cars (though they ended up being used when the diner pool thinned out).

Congress only decreed that Amtrak cut the losses on food service; but they provided no plans on how to do so and never suggested that they didn't want to pay for two food service cars.

The CCC/diner-lite idea was strictly Amtrak's solution to the Congressional mandate to cut the food service loses.

 

[battalion51]

There are still two overall messages I think that are lost on Congress. The first is the idea that transportation makes money, it doesn't. It's always going to require mass government subsidy. But looking at it from the hotelier's perspective, we don't make our money on food, we make it on rooms. The cost per occupied room as a percentage is much smaller than F&B costs. Hotels don't provide F&B options as a way to laugh to the bank, they use it to entice business. A convention hotel uses its meeting space and F&B offerings to sell rooms in the hotel. Same principle with the trains. The main principle is to move people from point A to point B. You just don't want to starve them in the process.

 

[Donctor]

Congress only decreed that Amtrak cut the losses on food service; but they provided no plans on how to do so and never suggested that they didn't want to pay for two food service cars.
The CCC/diner-lite idea was strictly Amtrak's solution to the Congressional mandate to cut the food service loses.

Really? That's not what my understanding had been. (I'm not questioning you in any way; I'm sure you're correct.)

 

[AlanB]

Congress only decreed that Amtrak cut the losses on food service; but they provided no plans on how to do so and never suggested that they didn't want to pay for two food service cars.
The CCC/diner-lite idea was strictly Amtrak's solution to the Congressional mandate to cut the food service loses.

Really? That's not what my understanding had been. (I'm not questioning you in any way; I'm sure you're correct.)

I suppose that certain individual Congressmen may have made such a statement about 2 cars; that wouldn't surprise me at all.

However, the specific language included in that year's funding bill did not direct Amtrak to cut the two cars down to one. It only directed Amtrak to cut the food service loses. And IMHO it was a stupid directive, as on one hand Congress said "here Amtrak, here's $1.35 Billion for you" and on the other hand they said "You have to cut the $200 Million in losses in food service." I'm reminded of the little Dutch Boy sticking his finger in the dike trying to hold back the flood. We're giving you Billions, but want you to cut back a little on a loss only totaling in the millions.

 

[dlagrua]

I can understand the food service losses but eliminate the food and the LD routes will collapse. You can't expect people to ride a train for 1-3 days without food. You could always start serving cheap food like hotdogs to save money but whos going to eat that crap.

Our average Amtrak LD trip runs anywhere from $600 to $1300 (exclusively bedroom) and thats quite a bit more expensive than air travel. They are just going to have to find a way to make money charging those already high prices. Now the NE regional runs are inexpensive but you can only get cafe car service in those and the prices aren't cheap. The food isn't all that great but these trips last hours not days plus you can buy a good meal at the teminal and take it onboard.

 

[Ryan]

We will be dining in one next month aboard the CL unless by stroke of luck a refurbished diner is made available by Beech Grove in the next few weeks. I know that the Beech Grove facility has hired quite a few mechanics this year so maybe the flow of rebuilt cars will greatly increase until Amtrak can get equipment.

The dinner and breakfast that we had on the CL was indistinguishable from the meal that we had on the SWC the day before, so I wouldn't worry. After having experiencing both, I think that the CCC-hate is nothing more than overwrought railfans getting into a tizzy about nothing.

 

[Bob Dylan]

We will be dining in one next month aboard the CL unless by stroke of luck a refurbished diner is made available by Beech Grove in the next few weeks. I know that the Beech Grove facility has hired quite a few mechanics this year so maybe the flow of rebuilt cars will greatly increase until Amtrak can get equipment.

The dinner and breakfast that we had on the CL was indistinguishable from the meal that we had on the SWC the day before, so I wouldn't worry. After having experiencing both, I think that the CCC-hate is nothing more than overwrought railfans getting into a tizzy about nothing.

I usually agree with most of your views Ryan (great to meet you in PHL BTW! )but when it comes to CCCs it's not the food that is the problem, you are correct it's the same as a regular diner, it's the arrangment of the seating (the mafia seat sucks) and when there is no Sightseer lounge as often happens on the Eagles and the CONO, it's a poor substitute for a lounge! Also the crews seem to have a dislike for these cars, everytime I ride the TE or the CONO and there is no lounge they tell the pax to let Amtrak know they want their lounge back! :angry: (the Eagle and the City are still being runthrough for who knows how long?)

 

[dlagrua]

We will be dining in one next month aboard the CL unless by stroke of luck a refurbished diner is made available by Beech Grove in the next few weeks. I know that the Beech Grove facility has hired quite a few mechanics this year so maybe the flow of rebuilt cars will greatly increase until Amtrak can get equipment.

The dinner and breakfast that we had on the CL was indistinguishable from the meal that we had on the SWC the day before, so I wouldn't worry. After having experiencing both, I think that the CCC-hate is nothing more than overwrought railfans getting into a tizzy about nothing.

I usually agree with most of your views Ryan (great to meet you in PHL BTW! )but when it comes to CCCs it's not the food that is the problem, you are correct it's the same as a regular diner, it's the arrangment of the seating (the mafia seat sucks) and when there is no Sightseer lounge as often happens on the Eagles and the CONO, it's a poor substitute for a lounge! Also the crews seem to have a dislike for these cars, everytime I ride the TE or the CONO and there is no lounge they tell the pax to let Amtrak know they want their lounge back! :angry: (the Eagle and the City are still being runthrough for who knows how long?)

The food will probably be OK but the seating (or lack of it) on the CCC car is our main concern. Here they expect almost everyone on the CL to have a meal and you develop a CCC car with 30% less seating capacity to replace a diner . It just doesn't make any sense. I also understand that the total kitchen cooking staff on these CCC cars is a total of ONE a far cry from the AT trip that we took last June. I believe that had three guys working down there and I remember it being a pretty decent sized fully equipped kitchen. I'll let everyone know how we made out when I post a trip report in late June. Maybe we will luck out and the diner car will have returned by then but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Ryan]

I agree that the one car for two swap is no good, but as a diner the CCC seemed A-OK to me (we sat in each type of booth, and I didn't have an issue with either).

 

[AlanB]

The food will probably be OK but the seating (or lack of it) on the CCC car is our main concern. Here they expect almost everyone on the CL to have a meal and you develop a CCC car with 30% less seating capacity to replace a diner . It just doesn't make any sense. I also understand that the total kitchen cooking staff on these CCC cars is a total of ONE a far cry from the AT trip that we took last June. I believe that had three guys working down there and I remember it being a pretty decent sized fully equipped kitchen. I'll let everyone know how we made out when I post a trip report in late June. Maybe we will luck out and the diner car will have returned by then but I'm not holding my breath.

I don't disagree with the reduced capacity issue, however it is important to note that at least originally there was no intent to put a CCC on the Capitol Limited.

As for the cooking staff, there are are at least a few LD trains that run with only one person in the kitchen and a full diner during at least part of the year. Staffing levels in the kitchen are determined by passenger bookings at key time points before the day of departure.

And the Auto Train is not a representative example. The Auto Train is the only train in the Amtrak system where every passenger is guaranteed a meal. It's also the only train in the system with more than 3 sleepers and more than 4 or 5 coaches regularly.

Finally, regarding the kitchens, they still have just as much room downstairs in the CCC as they do in a regular diner and they have all the same equipment for cooking too.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The food will probably be OK but the seating (or lack of it) on the CCC car is our main concern. Here they expect almost everyone on the CL to have a meal and you develop a CCC car with 30% less seating capacity to replace a diner . It just doesn't make any sense. I also understand that the total kitchen cooking staff on these CCC cars is a total of ONE a far cry from the AT trip that we took last June. I believe that had three guys working down there and I remember it being a pretty decent sized fully equipped kitchen. I'll let everyone know how we made out when I post a trip report in late June. Maybe we will luck out and the diner car will have returned by then but I'm not holding my breath.

The key difference between the CCC and the regular diner is the layout of the food serving area upstairs (its one booth length longer), and the shaping of the seats. On the Capitol Limited, the CCC is operated as a diner. The crews don't like it for many reasons, the primary one being they only have one dumb waiter. When they break, the wait staff has a lot more work to do.

 

[jmbgeg]

Congress only decreed that Amtrak cut the losses on food service; but they provided no plans on how to do so and never suggested that they didn't want to pay for two food service cars.
The CCC/diner-lite idea was strictly Amtrak's solution to the Congressional mandate to cut the food service loses.

Really? That's not what my understanding had been. (I'm not questioning you in any way; I'm sure you're correct.)

I suppose that certain individual Congressmen may have made such a statement about 2 cars; that wouldn't surprise me at all.

However, the specific language included in that year's funding bill did not direct Amtrak to cut the two cars down to one. It only directed Amtrak to cut the food service loses. And IMHO it was a stupid directive, as on one hand Congress said "here Amtrak, here's $1.35 Billion for you" and on the other hand they said "You have to cut the $200 Million in losses in food service." I'm reminded of the little Dutch Boy sticking his finger in the dike trying to hold back the flood. We're giving you Billions, but want you to cut back a little on a loss only totaling in the millions.

Are the losses on food service labor based, product based or both. The reason that I ask the question is that some have suggested cutting back the quality of the menu selections. I am not sure that would save substantially on labor costs, while reducing what you can sell the selections for.

 

[AlanB]

However, the specific language included in that year's funding bill did not direct Amtrak to cut the two cars down to one. It only directed Amtrak to cut the food service loses. And IMHO it was a stupid directive, as on one hand Congress said "here Amtrak, here's $1.35 Billion for you" and on the other hand they said "You have to cut the $200 Million in losses in food service." I'm reminded of the little Dutch Boy sticking his finger in the dike trying to hold back the flood. We're giving you Billions, but want you to cut back a little on a loss only totaling in the millions.

Are the losses on food service labor based, product based or both. The reason that I ask the question is that some have suggested cutting back the quality of the menu selections. I am not sure that would save substantially on labor costs, while reducing what you can sell the selections for.

I'm not sure just what causes the loss, since I've never seen any specific reports on it.

My guess, and it is nothing more than that, is that it's a combination of salaries and product waste. Waste in the sense that you have to overstock each type of food at least a bit, since you cannot predict with 100% certainty just what the passengers on any given train may order. Some foods can be sent right back out on the next train, but not all and they must be destroyed.

I've also heard, but stress that it is not confirmed, that the biggest losses occur in the short haul cafe cars. That would seem to suggest that dining cars are not the biggest losers. One thing that would seem to back that idea is the fact that cafe service on Empire corridor trains running only between NY and Albany was cut a few years ago, along with the comissary in ALB. That could be coupled with the fact that the Keystones don't offer cafe service either.