What is the Line of Authority on an Overnight Train?

[jis]

And Alan as Mr. Spock. :wub: :giggle:

I think of Alan as more like Scotty!

 

[railiner]

Many US commuter railroads like the LIRR and Metra have "collectors' that do just that--collect tickets and fares, and perhaps open coach doors. I don't think they are all even qualified to be 'assistant conductor's"......

 

[jis]

Many US commuter railroads like the LIRR and Metra have "collectors' that do just that--collect tickets and fares, and perhaps open coach doors. I don't think they are all even qualified to be 'assistant conductor's"......

That is quite possible. I am not familiar with their operations. Then such collector people would be equivalent to TTEs (Traveling Ticket Examiners)in India.

I believe NJT does not have any separate ticket collectors. All of them are either Conductor or Assistant Conductor.

All this also has a lot to do with Union agreements. I believe FRA has very little to say on this matter beyond requiring a Conductor to be in charge of the train.

But of course good old Dutch can shed a lot of light on this discussion as far as how things work on MNRR and LIRR is concerned, and perhaps even NJT.

 

[MikefromCrete]

The engineer cannot do anything, and that includes moving the train without the conductor's permission. The engineer is just the driver; the conductor is in charge of the train.

Maybe as a matter of rule, but as a matter of practice? The Engineer is talking with dispatchers and looking at signals and everything else Forward. The Conductor, while maybe trying to keep up with that is also dealing with lineup asking for an onboard upgrade. I really do not think the Engineer needs Conductor approval to stop at a red signal, or start up again after being put on a siding. At a station, sure ... but out on the open rails? Really?

Conductor gives the highball by handsignal or radio (or on commuter trains closes the doors) and engineer proceeds. Of course the engineer also obeys signals and instructions from the dispatcher, but the conductor is the boss of the train.

 

[leemell]

Please advise if I am mistaken.

You are mistaken! There is no OBS Chief! And there is no fireman in the cab either.

I am pretty certain there are still Assistant Engineers (firemen). Perhaps not on every route. I could not imagine them only having one person in the cab on LD routes.

Course, I have been wrong a few times in my life.

I've been on all the Western LDs, talked with several and every one of them had just the one engineer.

 

[NY Penn]

One place where the conductor is subordinate to the train operator, is the New York City Subway system....

That is incorrect: although the train operator actually moves the train, the conductor has to give him/her permission first. Officially, the train operator's job is to move the train, but the conductor's (besides closing doors and making announcements) is to keep the train operating safely. So the conductor is superior, although to go from conductor to train operator is considered a promotion.

It's odd, but true.

Even on NYCTA, if they can ever get over 19th century union operating rules and actually operate OPTO

there will be no conductor. Most other modern subway systems, specially those with ATC do not have conductors.

I believe the official reason for not using OPTO is safety during evacuations. One person is needed to control the crowd (can be over 1000 people) and the other to, for example, go up a staircase to see if it is suitable to evacuate passengers.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Why do the Indian trains have a Guard?! :blink: Is it like they think the train will be robbed or something? :excl: If it's like a Conductor, why call it a Guard? I also hear that there are window bars on non-AC trains and on some locomotives. Do all this have to do with a big safety issue?

 

[NY Penn]

IIRC Guard is the British English version of Conductor.

 

[HeadingNorth]

Regarding the NYC subway and OPTO, it also reduces station dwell. As a DC Metro rider, I've gotten used to waiting for the operator to switch from the right side of the cab to the left to open and close doors at island platforms (of which there are many), then back to the right. It may be a few seconds at each stop, but it adds up... In NY the conductor switches cabs between stations. I'd also argue that the conductor, located mid-train, can see doors better but maybe good mirrors take care of that.

 

[railiner]

One place where the conductor is subordinate to the train operator, is the New York City Subway system....

That is incorrect: although the train operator actually moves the train, the conductor has to give him/her permission first. Officially, the train operator's job is to move the train, but the conductor's (besides closing doors and making announcements) is to keep the train operating safely. So the conductor is superior, although to go from conductor to train operator is considered a promotion.

It's odd, but true.

Even on NYCTA, if they can ever get over 19th century union operating rules and actually operate OPTO

there will be no conductor. Most other modern subway systems, specially those with ATC do not have conductors.

I believe the official reason for not using OPTO is safety during evacuations. One person is needed to control the crowd (can be over 1000 people) and the other to, for example, go up a staircase to see if it is suitable to evacuate passengers.

Are you sure the train operator on NYC Subway is not in charge? IIRC, in times of irregular operations, evacuations, etc.; it is the train operator that issues instructions to the conductor....I will try to get an answer from the source some time in the next few days....

 

[Texan Eagle]

Why do the Indian trains have a Guard?! :blink: Is it like they think the train will be robbed or something? :excl: If it's like a Conductor, why call it a Guard? I also hear that there are window bars on non-AC trains and on some locomotives. Do all this have to do with a big safety issue?

It's not like the guard is actually guarding the train with a gun! The "guard" is similar to Amtrak's conductor, but the difference being, he does not go around the train checking tickets and boarding passengers. He sits in the Guard Cabin at the end of the train and monitors its run and communicates with the engineers.

Yes, there are window bars on all non-AC coaches, those are partly to prevent chain-snatchers and such petty thieves but more importantly they are to prevent passengers from jumping into the train through open windows to grab seats in unreserved coaches

Every coach has 4 Emergency Windows without the bars, and needless to say they are favorite among railfans. See this photo-

PS: No prizes for guessing who is the guy peeping out of the open window

The bars on windshields of locomotives are protection against hooliganism. For some reason, all kinds of protests, whether it is anyways connected to railways or not, results in protestors occupying railway tracks and hurtling stones (easily available ballast from the tracks) at the locomotives, hence the protection is needed.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Oh, thanks Texan. I thought for a second that Indian Railway Guards were like Vaegir Guards!

 

[the_traveler]

Why do the Indian trains have a Guard?! :blink: Is it like they think the train will be robbed or something? :excl: If it's like a Conductor, why call it a Guard?

The same reason there are no police in England. We call then "Bobbies"! And in England, there are no lawyers - they are "Solicitors". (If you ask for a "Solicitor" on the street in the US, I'm almost certain you will not get a lawyer! Well after you're arrested probably!

)

 

[EB_OBS]

Please advise if I am mistaken.

You are mistaken! There is no OBS Chief! And there is no fireman in the cab either.

I am pretty certain there are still Assistant Engineers (firemen). Perhaps not on every route. I could not imagine them only having one person in the cab on LD routes.

Course, I have been wrong a few times in my life.

I've been on all the Western LDs, talked with several and every one of them had just the one engineer.

The Empire Builder has one engineer for most of its route. The one segment that is an exception is between Shelby, MT and Minot, ND. This segment has two engineers.

 

[NY Penn]

Are you sure the train operator on NYC Subway is not in charge? IIRC, in times of irregular operations, evacuations, etc.; it is the train operator that issues instructions to the conductor....I will try to get an answer from the source some time in the next few days....

Quote from rulebook of NYC Transit:

Conductors who are assigned to revenue train service have charge of trains and are responsible for the safety, regularity and proper care and condition of trains and such orders as they may give…must be obeyed

Source

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Why do the Indian trains have a Guard?! :blink: Is it like they think the train will be robbed or something? :excl: If it's like a Conductor, why call it a Guard?

The same reason there are no police in England. We call then "Bobbies"! And in England, there are no lawyers - they are "Solicitors". (If you ask for a "Solicitor" on the street in the US, I'm almost certain you will not get a lawyer! Well after you're arrested probably!

)

So is that what "the Penthouse Suite" means?

 

[railiner]

Are you sure the train operator on NYC Subway is not in charge? IIRC, in times of irregular operations, evacuations, etc.; it is the train operator that issues instructions to the conductor....I will try to get an answer from the source some time in the next few days....

Quote from rulebook of NYC Transit:

Conductors who are assigned to revenue train service have charge of trains and are responsible for the safety, regularity and proper care and condition of trains and such orders as they may give…must be obeyed

Source

Yes. Apparently you are correct. I asked a conductor on a 'C' Train that question today, while waiting for my 'E' to come. He confirmed that he is in charge of the train.

It does seem strange in a way, that the promoted, higher trained, and more experienced person (the train operator), is subordinate in this practice....

 

[AlanB]

And why is OBS Chief a title on AU?

Because when this forum was first started, OBS Chief was still a valid position. So we thought it would be fun to sort of move through the "ranks" as it were as people make posts and contribute to the forum. In real life however, it would actually be very unlikely that someone would go from being an OBS Chief to a conductor and then onto an engineer.

 

[AlanB]

And Alan as Mr. Spock. :wub: :giggle:

I think of Alan as more like Scotty!

Well I can't do the Scottish accent, sorry!

However, I can do the Vulcan hand salute.

So I don't know where that leaves you guys. :lol:

 

[AlanB]

Regarding the NYC subway and OPTO, it also reduces station dwell. As a DC Metro rider, I've gotten used to waiting for the operator to switch from the right side of the cab to the left to open and close doors at island platforms (of which there are many), then back to the right. It may be a few seconds at each stop, but it adds up... In NY the conductor switches cabs between stations. I'd also argue that the conductor, located mid-train, can see doors better but maybe good mirrors take care of that.

Well at least when the the DC Metro was operating on automatic the only delay would be in opening the doors. As soon as the motorman closed the doors, the automatics took over and started moving the train before the motorman ever got back to the actual controls. So that minimized the dwell times.

And I've been on plenty of subway trains in NY where it seemed like the conductor couldn't find the door open button.

 

[jis]

And Alan as Mr. Spock. :wub: :giggle:

I think of Alan as more like Scotty!

Well I can't do the Scottish accent, sorry!

However, I can do the Vulcan hand salute.

So I don't know where that leaves you guys. :lol:

Well you just have to learn that Scottish accent, because you are as good as Scotty in making those website "buckets of bolt" hold together and not fall apart.

 

[NY Penn]

And I've been on plenty of subway trains in NY where it seemed like the conductor couldn't find the door open button.

If you're talking about the last stop on the train, it always takes a while to open the door because the conductor has to switch to the cab in the next car. This is done so that the next conductor can just get in and be ready to operate.

Note that the doors must all be closed and the train stopped for the conductor to switch positions.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

How does a conductor's salary compare to an engineer?

 

[AlanB]

And I've been on plenty of subway trains in NY where it seemed like the conductor couldn't find the door open button.

If you're talking about the last stop on the train, it always takes a while to open the door because the conductor has to switch to the cab in the next car. This is done so that the next conductor can just get in and be ready to operate.

Note that the doors must all be closed and the train stopped for the conductor to switch positions.

Nope, not talking about end terminals. I've seen delays at stops along the route. Additionally, what you describe at the end terminals wasn't even possible on the older cars and I've never seen it happen on the newer cars. There are no end points where they must change conductors so fast that there is such a need. My line, the #7, at Times Square probably has the fastest turnover of any line during rush hour and there is still enough time to swap out conductors in the same cab.

But on the older cars, with half width cabs, you can't open the doors on the opposite side of the train from that position. The conductor must actually walk between two cars from one position to the other to open left or right side doors as required by the platforms.

MTA subway crews don't have to deal with all the FRA mandated tests & such, they pretty much get a new motorman at the other end and a new conductor in the middle at an end terminal. The conductor closes the doors when the dispatcher gives him the green light, literally. Then he buzzes the engineer twice to indicate that his panel indicates that the doors are closed, if the motorman agrees that his panel shows all doors closed, he buzzes back twice and then off they go on another run.

 

[NY Penn]

Not sure, but my lines (they use the R160 cars) always take around 5 - 10 seconds to open the doors from the time the train stops. Watching from the outside of the train, I see the train come to a halt, the conductor exits his position, crosses over to the next car, inserts his key, and then the doors open.

Maybe it doesn't happen on the (7) because of the necessary low layover time.