What's going on in New York?

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Well they're leaving late. Nothing to get all huffy about, since there's nothing any of us can do about it.
 
It's still a legitimate question and deserves an answer if any of us can supply it. Is it because they're arriving really late, or what? Anybody up there know? They're sure not going to be on time down here in Florida if they're leaving 3 and 4 hours late in NY.
 
Late trains getting into SSY. 20 getting very late into NYP for turnaround for 97. Late arrival means late departure. Cutbacks in staffing at SSY, dramatically increasing turnaround times and overall poor performance by more senior employees who weren't furloughed a few months back. These are just two reasons, but make up about 95% of why LD trains out of NYP are running late.
 
20 can't turn for 97, can it?! There's only about an hour or so between 20's arrival and 97's departure!

That would cross the line between ambitious and foolish, imo.

JPS
 
Absolutely disgraceful.

If this is what long distance rail is to be, then I'm totally with the Vraniches and Minettas of the world: Scrap it and be done with it.

With that said, I believe in long distance rail, but it needs to be FIXED. The Crescent needs to be shortened to Atlanta temporarily, and if SSY employees are really "dissappointing" they need to join their brethren on furlough. Get some new blood.

Disgusted, and starting to wonder about my trip on 97/98 next week,

JPS
 
Did you call Amtrak and ask?

Could be just about anything.

I dont know why someone would think this is "disgraceful". Late trains happen, a mojority of the time NOT due to Amtrak.
 
daveyb99 said:
Did you call Amtrak and ask?
Could be just about anything.

I dont know why someone would think this is "disgraceful". Late trains happen, a mojority of the time NOT due to Amtrak.
Ask what, exactly? The train left NYP 4:45 minutes late, I don't give a hoot what delayed it.

When a train leaves its INITIAL TERMINAL hours late (two days in a row, by the way), yes, it is Amtrak's fault. If it was partially due to a late arrival, then Amtrak is scheduling the trains too close together. If it was mechanical problems in the yard, then it's Amtrak's responsibility, too.

I don't know why anyone would think it is anything BUT disgraceful. Get it through your heads, folks, most people take Amtrak for TRANSPORTATION. Rare daylight runs are of use only to railfans. If all we care about is our little choo-choo ride and how good the food is in the dining car, then we were on the wrong side all along.

Now, if you wish, maybe we can discuss solutions to this problem. Shorten the Crescent to Atlanta until traffic subsides? Change 97's schedule to later? Changes to the workforce at SSY?

If the problems can't be solved, we are wasting our time.

JPS
 
Believe it or not, when I worked a trip on 20, they said to prepare the train as it was going out as 97 (three hours late, of course). Because of poor turnarounds in the yard, equipment failures and borrowing from Peter to pay Paul, they come up with some strange and often nonworking rotation schedules. That's why a late 97 will leave because the Lakeshore is frozen and can't be cleaned, especially the sanitary tanks and the honey truck operators in SSY refuse to "get dirty" in the snow.

I've got a good friend who's a coach attendant who trained me. She's a little women and real sweet. She loves all passengers and does more the passengers than I would do, especially the drunk ones who decide from time to time to fight leaving FLO, but that's another story. Anyway, her favorite story is leaving NYP on 91 or 97 in the winter and by the time the train gets to PHL, the toilets are clogged because no one emptied the tanks in SSY. The conductor will call New York and find out that the sanitation workers didn't "feel like" getting all snowy and muddy in the yard. No surprise, no one gets in trouble and they spend more time trying to sell pirated copies of the lastest movies in the lounge car to OBS employees than cleaning train. Don't attempt to turn them in, the managers get a cut, so it doesn't stop. <_<
 
x-press said:
Ask what, exactly?  The train left NYP 4:45 minutes late, I don't give a hoot what delayed it.
When a train leaves its INITIAL TERMINAL hours late (two days in a row, by the way), yes, it is Amtrak's fault.  If it was partially due to a late arrival, then Amtrak is scheduling the trains too close together.  If it was mechanical problems in the yard, then it's Amtrak's responsibility, too.
Amtrak can tell you why the trains were delayed. With three trains delayed over two hours each, it might have been problems with the host railroad, a train/auto crossing accident, a derailment by a freight, a police action, a broken switch, or any of a mess of other scenarios which were NOT Amtraks fault.

Leaving two hours late at the initial terminal, again, it not always Amtraks fault. Ever been on an airline flight that departed late? That aircraft might be scheduled for eight flights that day, with :45 between flights. An early morning delay might ripple throughout the day (happened to Southwest all the time when they had their in-famous :10 turn).

So just how much time do you want Amtrak to schedule between trains? If you scheduled the Sunset, would you schedule 2 days? Doubt it.

I would resist blaming Amtrak without having all the facts..........

Call Amtrak and let us know....
 
Leaving two hours late at the initial terminal, again, it not always Amtraks fault. Ever been on an airline flight that departed late? That aircraft might be scheduled for eight flights that day, with :45 between flights. An early morning delay might ripple throughout the day (happened to Southwest all the time when they had their in-famous :10 turn).

So just how much time do you want Amtrak to schedule between trains? If you scheduled the Sunset, would you schedule 2 days? Doubt it.

Where does "2 days" come into it? No train on the Amtrak system runs 48 hours late. Amtrak knows quite well, however, that trains are delayed routinely for 2-4 hours. I don't like that, and I'm right with the people on this board who think non-BNSF RR's need to get their acts together, but these delays still need to be factored in to turnaround times. IF that's even what caused this.

If it happens once in a blue moon, fine. Watching 97/98's performance over the last couple months, I know that's not the case.

Even assuming, for argument's sake, that it's NOT Amtrak's fault, the situation itself is still disgraceful. There are problems that can be fixed, and those that can't. If Amtrak long distance operations can be fixed (I say it can), do it. If not, let it die.
 
Speaking of fault, it is worth noting that today's Silver Meteor (9703) is starting out of Washington versus NYP because of equipment failures and lack of trainsets for Florida-bound trains. The arrival of 9802 in WAS (acting as the School Board Special) was turned and setup for 97. Amtrak reported that if 98 was a regular train, they would have annulled 97 today for a lack of equipment in NYP. Passenger boarding 97 today between NYP and BAL will board corridor trains and connect on scheduled late departing 97 in WAS. Folks, shutdown culture is alive and well at Amtrak! :eek:
 
x-press said:
Even assuming, for argument's sake, that it's NOT Amtrak's fault, the situation itself is still disgraceful. There are problems that can be fixed, and those that can't. If Amtrak long distance operations can be fixed (I say it can), do it. If not, let it die.
Wrong again.

No matter what, some idiot will drive around the crossing gates and right into the path of an oncoming train.

That will be a three hour delay right there.

So yes, we should shut down Amtrak because the disgraceful motoring public can not keep themselves of a northbound Siver Service train.

As for the 2-days?

Some of the Sunset's were running 24-28 hours late. You want to protect the departure by allowing sufficient time between inbound/outbound.....2-days it is.
 
Something I think is being missed is the time it takes to turn a train no matter what. Almost any Long Distance that has to be turned around is going to take four to five hours at minimum to turn. I always come back to the efficency of Auto Train. From the time that southbound power hits the switches to the the time that last northbound carrier clears it's usually five hours at minimum. Assuming no cuts, normal washing, and normal moves it's about five hours. If AT can do it with their special operation there's absolutely no reason no one else can't.
 
Wrong again.

No matter what, some idiot will drive around the crossing gates and right into the path of an oncoming train.

That will be a three hour delay right there.

So yes, we should shut down Amtrak because the disgraceful motoring public can not keep themselves of a northbound Siver Service train.

As for the 2-days?

Some of the Sunset's were running 24-28 hours late. You want to protect the departure by allowing sufficient time between inbound/outbound.....2-days it is.

Oh, please. Listen to yourself.

Yes, grade-crossing accidents will delay trains. What percentage of trips do they happen on? 2%? 5%?

If the Sunset was running 24-48 hours late REGULARLY, then of course it should have been discontinued until such time as the tracks were made ready for passenger rail service.

I don't care about once or twice a year events for trains, I care about systematic, routine delays. If you think that a train that runs 48 hours late routinely is an essential component of the national network that needs to be federally subsidized to maintain the status quo, then you're blind. With attitudes like your's, Amtrak really would be doomed. It's a shame, because I think it could be made viable.

JPS
 
First, I'm a bit unhappy with some of the tone taken in this thread. Please keep this discussion on a professional level, not personal.

Now turning to the conversation at hand, most of last year the Sunset Limited rarely arrived less than 8 hours late and many times it was between 8 to 24 hours late.

This is not due to the tracks being made ready for passenger service. The tracks that the Sunset runs on have always been ready for passenger service. The delays were due to poor dispatching on the part of the host RR, train crew understaffing by the host RR, and management's trying to fit too many trains over one peice of track.

Is a late Sunset a big problem? Yes. But you don't pull it's funding because UP refuses to honor it's agreements. Does one stiff the cab driver, because he gets caught in a traffic jam? Do we stop federal funding of highways because a Greyhound bus gets stuck in a traffic jam?

No. You try to improve things by increasing funding so that you have more cars available to make up trains when one arrives late. You find ways to both work to improve the host RR's capacity and you find ways to force / penalize them for delaying Amtrak and not honoring the contract.

Amtrak has the big problem of delayed trains, simply because of the way that Congress set Amtrak up. If Amtrak could heavily penalize a freight Co. for delaying a train, then most of the delays would go away. If Amtrak were paying more for the use of the tracks, the host RR's might be more amenable to keeping Amtrak on time.

Sadly Congress set Amtrak up with neither club to use. So until Congress fixes the problem, Amtrak is stuck between a rock and a hard place. And no amount of planning and scheduling can deal with a train that runs on time one day, 12 hours late the next, 4 the following, and so. Especially when you barely have enough equipment to run all the trains you need to run each day. There isn't a large pool of cars just sitting around waiting to go out on the next train.

Take the Viewliner sleepers for example. If memory serves, Amtrak has just enough to cover all the routes it runs, while leaving 1 spare in Sunnyside yard, 1 spare in Hialeah, Florida and two have 2 down for heavy maintenance. So if you get one car bad ordered in NY and that spare goes out, and the next train in also has a bad Viewliner, you are out of luck. Either the train is delayed to fix the car, or you run without that sleeper.

And coming back to that on time, 12 hour, 4 hour delays, you can't schedule cleaning crews for delays like that. People want normal, standard hours. If you keep them around for a late arriving train, that's overtime. And most people wouldn't wait around on the clock anyhow if their shift ended at 6:00 pm and the Silver Star is due in at 1:00 AM. You also can't keep them on telephone standby either.

Now the fact that everyone keeps screaming at Amtrak to make a profit, when most reasonable men know that is not possible, doesn't help. That means we just keep cutting and cutting and cutting. The first rule of business is "you have to spend money to make money."

But the biggest problem originates with Congress, the White House, and how they structured Amtrak and the rules under which it operates. They must fix that first, before Amtrak can ever start to seriously fix some of it's own internal problems IMHO.
 
I apologize if my tone came off wrong; I feel I was responding to another person's twisting of my words, but that doesn't excuse it.

I am simply frustrated by certain railfans' knee-jerk reaction to every single Amtrak fiasco: "Not-Amtrak's-fault-blame-UP-Amtrak's-underfunded." Of course this is 100% true at times, but Amtrak has to look at their own operations as well. The nonsense being spouted by the Vraniches and Minettas out there needs to be dealt with via facts and level heads, not simply spouting our own propaganda, which is every bit as inaccurate. I think people on this board are vastly underestimating Amtrak's own role in some of these late trains. I've experienced them myself, and some of the good people on this board are Amtrak employees who have testified to such.

No, we wouldn't cut federal highway funding for a traffic-jammed road . . . but Greyhound would certainly cancel bus service on a route with routine delays measured in days. Greyhound proponents wouldn't bemoan the loss of the bus, but rather push to alleviate the circumstances that led to its temporary loss.

Mr. AlanB claims that higher penalty payments would eliminate a lot of delays. I'm not so sure. When I say "tracks aren't made ready for passenger service," that includes the dispatching, understaffing, etc. The freight RR's of this country need infrastructure improvements to support passenger rail, but I rarely hear them discussed by either side of the debate. I hear anguished howls at the prospect of microwaves in the dining car, but a train leaving its origin 5 hours late gets a "nothing we can do about it" response. If this is the best support the long distance train can get, then a tough road just got tougher.

JPS
 
x-press said:
Mr. AlanB claims that higher penalty payments would eliminate a lot of delays. I'm not so sure. When I say "tracks aren't made ready for passenger service," that includes the dispatching, understaffing, etc. The freight RR's of this country need infrastructure improvements to support passenger rail, but I rarely hear them discussed by either side of the debate. I hear anguished howls at the prospect of microwaves in the dining car, but a train leaving its origin 5 hours late gets a "nothing we can do about it" response. If this is the best support the long distance train can get, then a tough road just got tougher.
JPS
JPS,

I'm not saying that improvements to capacity, signaling, and dispatching aren't needed for many freight Co's. There is no doubt in my mind that there are problems there. I fully support and believe in the idea that some form of Federal / Freight partnership needs to be reached, to fund those improvements.

On the other hand though, there are many occasions where capacity is not an issue. Since Amtrak pays a pittance, far less than the damage to the infrastructure that an Amtrak trains causes, many freight companies see Amtrak as an intrusion. It costs them money to run Amtrak period, be it on time or late.

So faced with paying penalties for late freight, or even lost business because the freight is late, some RR's choose to put Amtrak on the siding rather than their money making freight trains. Now I'm not suggesting that the freight Co's shouldn't be concerned with their bottom line. After all they are in business to make money. But they also did sign a contract that promised priority to Amtrak and passenger service.

So Amtrak in an effort to make things better now pays bonuses to those companies that achieve certain on time performance levels. BNSF routinely collects those bonus checks. UP on the other hand doesn't seem to care or think that they are big enough.

Personally, what I'm proposing is a combination plan. First, Amtrak should be paying more for the right of passage. Yes, that may mean a bigger subsidy to Amtrak, but it is only fair. I'm not suggesting that a freight Co should be making a profit off Amtrak, but they should be getting fair compensation.

Second, I could see leaving the bonus plan in effect; offering bonuses to Freight Co's that achieve at least a 90% to 95% OTP record for Amtrak.

Finally, for a freight Co that doesn't achieve a minimum OTP of say 70% or so, they should then be penalized for that poor record. Penalties could include no payment from Amtrak at all that month, fines payable to Amtrak, or perhaps refunds to all pax delayed by the company.

What we need is a system that fairly compensates the freight Co's for Amtrak's passage, yet a system that makes it costly for their failure to do so, assuming factor within their control. Obviously things like floods, derailments, accidents and such would not be considered in any penalty calculations. But it is a proven fact that some companies can run on time most of the time, while others don't. It's not just a capacity infrastructure problem; it's the culture of management at the top of the company.

Some people just need to be persuaded to do the right thing. This happens in all facets of life. Some people and companies consistently do the right thing, while others try to cut corners and bend the rules. What I'm proposing, while nothing but a dream and unlikely to ever happen, gives the Freight Co's incentive to do the right thing, and smacks them when they don't.
 
AlanB said:
Second, I could see leaving the bonus plan in effect; offering bonuses to Freight Co's that achieve at least a 90% to 95% OTP record for Amtrak.
Finally, for a freight Co that doesn't achieve a minimum OTP of say 70% or so, they should then be penalized for that poor record.  Penalties could include no payment from Amtrak at all that month, fines payable to Amtrak, or perhaps refunds to all pax delayed by the company.

What we need is a system that fairly compensates the freight Co's for Amtrak's passage, yet a system that makes it costly for their failure to do so, assuming factor within their control.  Obviously things like floods, derailments, accidents and such would not be considered in any penalty calculations.  But it is a proven fact that some companies can run on time most of the time, while others don't.  It's not just a capacity infrastructure problem; it's the culture of management at the top of the company.  
Alan,

Another Option that Bill 1516 was considering was if a Train's OTP got below 80% the FRA would investigate then give out Recomendations and Possibly fine the RR's. My Idea would be to have a Sliding Scales for investingating and Fine purpses expect events that God/Mother Nature will not be counted in the Fine process.

90% for Corrdior Trains Under 550 Miles

85% for Trains 551-999+Miles

80% for all other trains over 1,000 Miles.

Is this possible?
 
AmtrakFan said:
Alan,Another Option that Bill 1516 was considering was if a Train's OTP got below 80% the FRA would investigate then give out Recomendations and Possibly fine the RR's.    My Idea would be to have a Sliding Scales for investingating and Fine purpses expect events that God/Mother Nature will not be counted in the Fine process.

90% for Corrdior Trains Under 550 Miles

85% for Trains 551-999+Miles

80% for all other trains over 1,000 Miles.

Is this possible?
Well anything is possibe, if Congress wants to actually create some meaningful reform. :)

Ps. I fixed the quote on your original post, since it was screwed up. :)
 
This part of the Amtrak debate regarding railroad infrastructure is out of my area of extensive knowledge, but I thought that a part of the President's DOT budget was worth noting in regards to the issue of freight railroad capacity being discussed at this time regarding Amtrak's OTP.

The President proposes abolishment of the DOT loan program that is designed to give low interest, low security loans to private railroad companies to increase their capacity issues and improve the overall physical viability and capacity of the American railroad system which is almost all privately owned. I find that the President's agenda against any program that can be used by the railroad industry to improve their capital infrastructure, which had been significantly reduced in regards to overall industry revenues following World War II, to cover huge raises in operations costs. The overall railroad industry's reduction and vast abandonment of its physical infrastructure was a major catalyst of the government to look at options to save the railroads from economic callapse were screaming for ways to shed labors costs, especially on-board passenger trains. Overall reductions in routes and track capacity has been a long time problem for passenger railroading, especially with Amtrak and commuter rail systems. Although the specifics of the DOT loan program are not in my area of knowledge either, I think it's worth noting that the Administration seems to be anti-rail as a whole, passenger and freight. <_<
 
Well the definition of OTP should be clearly defined to things that were strictly the host railroad's fault. IE holding out for freight, signal failures, MOW, etc. Obviously delays that are Amtrak's fault or thanks to mother nature are not the host railroad's fault. Also an examination of heat restrictions should be done since CSX is overly cautious and NS is not so much.
 
AlanB said:
AmtrakFan said:
Alan,

Another Option that Bill 1516 was considering was if a Train's OTP got below 80% the FRA would investigate then give out Recomendations and Possibly fine the RR's.    My Idea would be to have a Sliding Scales for investingating and Fine purpses expect events that God/Mother Nature will not be counted in the Fine process.

90% for Corrdior Trains Under 550 Miles

85% for Trains 551-999+Miles

80% for all other trains over 1,000 Miles.

Is this possible?
Well anything is possibe, if Congress wants to actually create some meaningful reform. :)

Ps. I fixed the quote on your original post, since it was screwed up. :)
Thank Alan I didn't notice it was screwed up I must of deleted one of the Quote things.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top