What's With All The Delays In The NEC Today?

[Acela150]

I was at PHL today for about 45 minutes eating lunch while waiting for a train home to the suburbs, and all the trains were late. This was around noon. Some trains were listed as "delayed" including the penny. This is the first time in my lifetime, 17 years, that the board have all trains as late! My jaw hit the floor! Did anything happen besdies the snow storm?

Stephen

 

[AlanB]

As posted elsewhere on the net.

About New York Arrival/Departure Delays of Tuesday, March 3, 2009
Northeast Corridor, North Jersey Coast Line and Midtown Direct service

NJ TRANSIT apologizes for the significant delay and inconvenience many of you experienced this morning.

At approximately 6 a.m., Morris & Essex Lines Midtown Direct train 6606 became disabled near Morristown Station due to a mechanical problem. Although the train was able to regain power, it continued to experience mechanical difficulties and was canceled at Newark Broad Street Station as a precaution. Train 6606s passengers were transferred to following train 6610.

At approximately 7:10 a.m., train 6610 became mechanically disabled at Kearny Junction, where the Morris & Essex Lines connect to the Northeast Corridor. Train 6610 was able to regain power and continue to Secaucus Junction, where it was also canceled as a precautionary measure, with passengers transferred to trains 3550 and 3918. Resulting congestion caused delays of 15-20 minutes to Northeast Corridor, North Jersey Coast Line and Midtown Direct trains.

Unfortunately, at approximately 8 a.m., Northeast Corridor train 3918 became disabled in the South Tube due to a mechanical problem. An Amtrak rescue locomotive was dispatched to tow the train back into the station, and the train was cleared from the tunnel at approximately 9:10 a.m.

However, until the disabled train could be moved, all NJ TRANSIT and Amtrak trains in both directions were forced to share the single-track North Tube for service in and out of New York Penn Station. This caused significant delays to all trains ranging from 30-60 minutes throughout the morning peak period. In addition, some Midtown Direct trains were rerouted to and from Hoboken Terminal, where customers could use their rail tickets and passes at no additional charge to continue their trip via PATH.

Regrettably, some customers who were on the first disabled train, train 6606, were also on the other two trains that became disabled and incurred an even greater delay, arriving in New York more than two hours after train 6606 was scheduled to arrive.

At approximately 9:10 a.m., the South Tube was returned to service and normal operations resumed using both tunnels. Residual delays affected service through the mid-morning hours.

During this incident, we provided the most current service information via station PA announcements, broadcast traffic reports and the My Transit alert system, which delivers travel advisories for your specific trip to your cell phone, PDA or pager. (If you are not yet a My Transit subscriber, we encourage you to sign up at www.njtransit.com.) In addition, to provide customers with alternate travel options, we established cross-honoring on PATH at Newark Penn Station and Hoboken Terminal.

Once again, we apologize for the inconvenience and thank you for your patience. If you have additional questions or comments regarding these delays, please contact us online at http://www.njtransit.com/ or by calling NJ TRANSIT Customer Service at 973-275-5555.

 

[PetalumaLoco]

Sounds like a Cohen brothers movie, where everything progressively turns to crap. Like Fargo, or Burn After Reading.

 

[MattW]

So train 1 gets disabled, pax get on train 2, that gets disabled, so pax transfer to train 3 (and 4) and 3 gets disabled? WOW That's seriously messed up

 

[AAARGH!]

Regrettably, some customers who were on the first disabled train, train 6606, were also on the other two trains that became disabled and incurred an even greater delay, arriving in New York more than two hours after train 6606 was scheduled to arrive.

That's when I turn around and head home. I figure it God doesn't want me at work, why argue.

 

[user 2160]

Regrettably, some customers who were on the first disabled train, train 6606, were also on the other two trains that became disabled and incurred an even greater delay, arriving in New York more than two hours after train 6606 was scheduled to arrive.

That's when I turn around and head home. I figure it God doesn't want me at work, why argue.

whoa. that's impressive.. looks like something worthy of investigating

 

[Acela150]

That's very crazy!

Stephen

 

[saxman]

I was traveling the NEC yesterday, and that wasn't even all the problems. I was scheduled on 174 from WAS to BOS. First they delayed 184 due to mechanical reasons. Then they just cancelled and told all those guys to just ride 174. 174 also left about an hour late from WAS due mechanical reasons. I'm wondering if they just delayed the departures because of the closed tunnel? By the time we got to NYP, both tunnels were open.

Finally pulled in Providence and they said the Fire Department had shut down the line up ahead, so it would be a lengthy delay. Later found out there was a car accident on a bridge and an inspector was making sure the bridge was sound, before trains could pass under it, and cars could pass over it. Arrived into BOS about 90 minutes late. Even Acela 2164 who had passed us at New Haven, made a backward move into PVD to wait. Finally they let us go ahead of the Acela. They were about 1:45 late into BOS.

Now I checked this morning for train 66 arrival, as that has my checked bag on it. Looks like it cancelled too

 

[amtrakwolverine]

I was traveling the NEC yesterday, and that wasn't even all the problems. I was scheduled on 174 from WAS to BOS. First they delayed 184 due to mechanical reasons. Then they just cancelled and told all those guys to just ride 174. 174 also left about an hour late from WAS due mechanical reasons. I'm wondering if they just delayed the departures because of the closed tunnel? By the time we got to NYP, both tunnels were open.
Finally pulled in Providence and they said the Fire Department had shut down the line up ahead, so it would be a lengthy delay. Later found out there was a car accident on a bridge and an inspector was making sure the bridge was sound, before trains could pass under it, and cars could pass over it. Arrived into BOS about 90 minutes late. Even Acela 2164 who had passed us at New Haven, made a backward move into PVD to wait. Finally they let us go ahead of the Acela. They were about 1:45 late into BOS.

Now I checked this morning for train 66 arrival, as that has my checked bag on it. Looks like it canceled too

so whats going to happen to your bag sense they canceled the train with the bag still on it

 

[John Bredin]

Unfortunately, at approximately 8 a.m., Northeast Corridor train 3918 became disabled in the South Tube due to a mechanical problem. An Amtrak rescue locomotive was dispatched to tow the train back into the station, and the train was cleared from the tunnel at approximately 9:10 a.m.
However, until the disabled train could be moved, all NJ TRANSIT and Amtrak trains in both directions were forced to share the single-track North Tube for service in and out of New York Penn Station. This caused significant delays to all trains ranging from 30-60 minutes throughout the morning peak period. In addition, some Midtown Direct trains were rerouted to and from Hoboken Terminal, where customers could use their rail tickets and passes at no additional charge to continue their trip via PATH.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is an object lesson why NJT's "Access to the Region's Core" project as presently conceived, with new tunnels under the Hudson leading to a new terminal only, with no rail access to the existing Penn Station and points north and east, is a seriously bad idea! :angry:

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Unfortunately, at approximately 8 a.m., Northeast Corridor train 3918 became disabled in the South Tube due to a mechanical problem. An Amtrak rescue locomotive was dispatched to tow the train back into the station, and the train was cleared from the tunnel at approximately 9:10 a.m.
However, until the disabled train could be moved, all NJ TRANSIT and Amtrak trains in both directions were forced to share the single-track North Tube for service in and out of New York Penn Station. This caused significant delays to all trains ranging from 30-60 minutes throughout the morning peak period. In addition, some Midtown Direct trains were rerouted to and from Hoboken Terminal, where customers could use their rail tickets and passes at no additional charge to continue their trip via PATH.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is an object lesson why NJT's "Access to the Region's Core" project as presently conceived, with new tunnels under the Hudson leading to a new terminal only, with no rail access to the existing Penn Station and points north and east, is a seriously bad idea! :angry:

How is this evidence that that's a bad idea? Are the 8 platforms at NYPSE ever going to be insufficient to keep up with the capacity of the THE tunnels?

 

[John Bredin]

How is this evidence that that's a bad idea? Are the 8 platforms at NYPSE ever going to be insufficient to keep up with the capacity of the THE tunnels?

It's a bad idea because, if one or both of the existing tunnels were to be blocked, as in the incident in this thread, a Penn-connected ARC tunnel would allow Amtrak (and Penn-terminating NJT) trains to reach Penn Station while a dead-end ARC tunnel would not.

 

[AlanB]

Unfortunately, at approximately 8 a.m., Northeast Corridor train 3918 became disabled in the South Tube due to a mechanical problem. An Amtrak rescue locomotive was dispatched to tow the train back into the station, and the train was cleared from the tunnel at approximately 9:10 a.m.
However, until the disabled train could be moved, all NJ TRANSIT and Amtrak trains in both directions were forced to share the single-track North Tube for service in and out of New York Penn Station. This caused significant delays to all trains ranging from 30-60 minutes throughout the morning peak period. In addition, some Midtown Direct trains were rerouted to and from Hoboken Terminal, where customers could use their rail tickets and passes at no additional charge to continue their trip via PATH.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is an object lesson why NJT's "Access to the Region's Core" project as presently conceived, with new tunnels under the Hudson leading to a new terminal only, with no rail access to the existing Penn Station and points north and east, is a seriously bad idea! :angry:

How is this evidence that that's a bad idea? Are the 8 platforms at NYPSE ever going to be insufficient to keep up with the capacity of the THE tunnels?

If NJT needs to reroute trains because of a problem in one of the existing tunnels, then yes, most likely NYPSE will be unable to handle the volume and NJT will still have to cancel and/or reroute trains elsewhere. If they could reach NYP from the new tunnels, then it wouldn't be an issue.

 

[PRR 60]

...This, ladies and gentlemen, is an object lesson why NJT's "Access to the Region's Core" project as presently conceived, with new tunnels under the Hudson leading to a new terminal only, with no rail access to the existing Penn Station and points north and east, is a seriously bad idea! :angry:

How is this evidence that that's a bad idea? Are the 8 platforms at NYPSE ever going to be insufficient to keep up with the capacity of the THE tunnels?

If NJT needs to reroute trains because of a problem in one of the existing tunnels, then yes, most likely NYPSE will be unable to handle the volume and NJT will still have to cancel and/or reroute trains elsewhere. If they could reach NYP from the new tunnels, then it wouldn't be an issue.

Two comments:

First, the ARC tunnel is a bored tube in rock. A bored tube is as clean as it gets for going under the river and into Manhattan. There is no mucking out to place the tunnel in the riverbed, or extensive cut and cover in the city. To bore in rock, and to clear the new tunnel for the extension of the 7 train on 11th Avenue, the ARC tube has to be deep. There is no physical way to connect a deep bore tube to the shallow depth of the NYP trackage. The only way to connect to Penn trackage is to use a shallow tunnel. That opens up a whole bunch of environmental issues in the river and countless excavation and surface conflicts in Manhattan. It's no exaggeration to say that for ARC, is it either a deep tube with no NYP connection, or no tube at all.

Two, ARC will provide relief to NYP, at least in the short term (first 10 to 15 years). NJT is not going to immediately ramp-up schedules to fill the new capacity at NYPSE. During the early years of ARC, some NJT trains that today use NYP will move out to the new station. NJT has even offered to let Amtrak use NYPSE for the push-pull Keystone trains. Even if just NJT trains move to NYPSE, that will open capacity at NYP. Scheduling trains in and out of NYP will be easier, and having fewer trains in the two old tubes will provide more flexibility in the case of a problem that takes one tube out.

 

[Acela150]

Yeah when are those tunnels supposed to open?

Stephen

 

[AlanB]

Yeah when are those tunnels supposed to open?
Stephen

They haven't even received final approval for building the new tunnels and the station, much less found all the needed monies to do so. So we are at best several years away from seeing them open.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

NJT has even offered to let Amtrak use NYPSE for the push-pull Keystone trains.

If that happened, would Amtrak clean them out only once per roundtrip at Harrisburg?

 

[jis]

NJT has even offered to let Amtrak use NYPSE for the push-pull Keystone trains.

If that happened, would Amtrak clean them out only once per roundtrip at Harrisburg?

Why is there something that prevents a cleaning crew from walking over to NYPSE and doing their work? Even today it is not like all Keystones go to Sunnyside to be turned.

 

[jis]

Yeah when are those tunnels supposed to open?

Current schedule is 2017. But what will actually happen is a bit uncertain at present.

The project has got a Record of Decision for EIS. It is awaiting the FFGA (Full Funding Grant Agreement) from FTA. Surprisingly, even though FFGA is yet to happen, there is money allocated for it in the stimulus bill. PANYNJ has some $350 million budgeted for it in 2009, out of the total $3 billion they have committed so far. FTA has allowed engineering work to begin pending FFGA. Normally no further work is supposed to happen until FFGA, but since FTA is responsible for funding only a bit more than one third of the project, apparently they decided stuff that is funded by others can go on.

OTOH, organizations like NARP as far as I can tell just want to kill the project outright. While I do disagree with the fact that this tunnel is not connected to NYPSE, and for a few reasons that have to do with the intransigence of New York State and City more than anything else, I do believe that this tunnel and additional platform capacity is necessary sooner rather than later. NARP may have lost site of the political reality that perfect is the enemy of good.

There is some continuing wrangling going on between NJ and NY on whether NY should be funding part of it since MNRR west of Hudson operations will be a clear beneficiary of this project and also if you believe stuff that the good Senator Schumer from NY says, the Stewert Rail Link will also be a beneficiary of this project. The net result of all that posturing will possibly (my conjecture) be additional funding out of PANYNJ from the New York pool of Capital to account for that contribution, since NY state is probably more broke than even NJ state.

My suspicion is that some part of the funding will remain up in the air for a few years, sort of similar to what is happening for ESA.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

I'm really not convinced that there's anything terribly wrong with the NYPSE alignment as it is. AFAIK, nothing says it can't be connected to ESA in a few decades once the water tunnel can be taken out of service if the will can be found to fund rerouting the water tunnel during its maintenance. And that water tunnel rerouting is probably not any harder than rerouting THE tunnel to a shallower alignment; rerouting the water tunnel is probably vastly easier in terms of the number of parties the railroad has to negotiate with.

I hadn't realized that some trains get cleaned at NYP as it is. There is the downside that that ties up scarce platform capacity, but then again using East River tunnel capacity to deadhead trains to Sunnyside is differently wasteful of scare capacity. Through running as many trains as possible would be a more efficient use of both resources. (And in fact, if all trains were run through, there would be a huge excess of platforms in Manhattan for the current track capacity into and out of Manhattan. In pure run through operation, a two track railroad on one side running through to a two track railroad on the other side probably has plenty of platform capacity if there are four platform tracks at each station, assuming you aren't too concerned about a train breaking down at a station stop, and not reversing direction ought to reduce the number of mechanical problems that occur, and assuming you're willing to run reverse peak trains out of Manhattan in the same quantity that peak trains come in. The proposed North South Rail Link for Boston only has one platform track for every through track, even.)

 

[AlanB]

I'm really not convinced that there's anything terribly wrong with the NYPSE alignment as it is. AFAIK, nothing says it can't be connected to ESA in a few decades once the water tunnel can be taken out of service if the will can be found to fund rerouting the water tunnel during its maintenance. And that water tunnel rerouting is probably not any harder than rerouting THE tunnel to a shallower alignment; rerouting the water tunnel is probably vastly easier in terms of the number of parties the railroad has to negotiate with.

Well the concern here isn't the lack of a connection to GCT, it's the lack of a connection to NYP. The latter IMHO is far more critical than the former.

I hadn't realized that some trains get cleaned at NYP as it is. There is the downside that that ties up scarce platform capacity, but then again using East River tunnel capacity to deadhead trains to Sunnyside is differently wasteful of scare capacity. Through running as many trains as possible would be a more efficient use of both resources. (And in fact, if all trains were run through, there would be a huge excess of platforms in Manhattan for the current track capacity into and out of Manhattan. In pure run through operation, a two track railroad on one side running through to a two track railroad on the other side probably has plenty of platform capacity if there are four platform tracks at each station, assuming you aren't too concerned about a train breaking down at a station stop, and not reversing direction ought to reduce the number of mechanical problems that occur, and assuming you're willing to run reverse peak trains out of Manhattan in the same quantity that peak trains come in. The proposed North South Rail Link for Boston only has one platform track for every through track, even.)

Most trains that get turned on a plat happen during off peak hours, not during rush hours. During rush hour, pretty much only the NJT trains on tracks 1-4 actually turn on the plat. Almost everything else runs through, and probably at least half of the NJT trains that run through to Queens, park at Sunnyside for the day until needed for the evening rush.

 

[jis]

I'm really not convinced that there's anything terribly wrong with the NYPSE alignment as it is. AFAIK, nothing says it can't be connected to ESA in a few decades once the water tunnel can be taken out of service if the will can be found to fund rerouting the water tunnel during its maintenance. And that water tunnel rerouting is probably not any harder than rerouting THE tunnel to a shallower alignment; rerouting the water tunnel is probably vastly easier in terms of the number of parties the railroad has to negotiate with.

As long as people refuse to understand that these various problems of rerouting are at least as much political as they are technical, they will never understand the true situation. Just because something may become technically feasible does not mean that it will become any more politically feasible than it is now. What stands in the way of the NYP connection is partly technical and partly political as it stands. The political part won't change in the next 5 or 10 years unless the nature of relationships between NJ and NY states are changed significantly.

Also furthermore the real problem with building just a link from NYP to GCT which then does not further connect to anything or provide any additional run through possibilities is just simply not a good use of money IMHO. It is better to spend that money doing something more useful. As things stand even if NYPSE were connectable to ESA, nothing that NJT owns today will be able to run through to Harold via the ESA tunnel because they will all get stuck like a cork in it if they tried. And nothing that LIRR owns that can pass through the ESA tunnels will be able to go beyond NYPSE, if they can even make it to NYPSE that is, which will require installation of third rails in NYPSE.

I hadn't realized that some trains get cleaned at NYP as it is. There is the downside that that ties up scarce platform capacity, but then again using East River tunnel capacity to deadhead trains to Sunnyside is differently wasteful of scare capacity. Through running as many trains as possible would be a more efficient use of both resources. (And in fact, if all trains were run through, there would be a huge excess of platforms in Manhattan for the current track capacity into and out of Manhattan. In pure run through operation, a two track railroad on one side running through to a two track railroad on the other side probably has plenty of platform capacity if there are four platform tracks at each station, assuming you aren't too concerned about a train breaking down at a station stop, and not reversing direction ought to reduce the number of mechanical problems that occur, and assuming you're willing to run reverse peak trains out of Manhattan in the same quantity that peak trains come in. The proposed North South Rail Link for Boston only has one platform track for every through track, even.)

The problem in NYP is not the lack of platform faces but the lack of platform surface area attached to those faces and a woeful shortage of ingress and egress stairways. That is why run throughs will not work as well as it would if there was adequate platform surface area and stairs. This has been modeled many times and established over and over again, and is ignored only by those who have some other axe to grind. Such is life. You just have to arrive on a 10 car MLV and watch how long it takes for you to get off the platform, even if the other track adjacent to the platform is not in use, which in itself is a questionable good luck situation during the rush hours.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Also furthermore the real problem with building just a link from NYP to GCT which then does not further connect to anything or provide any additional run through possibilities is just simply not a good use of money IMHO. It is better to spend that money doing something more useful. As things stand even if NYPSE were connectable to ESA, nothing that NJT owns today will be able to run through to Harold via the ESA tunnel because they will all get stuck like a cork in it if they tried. And nothing that LIRR owns that can pass through the ESA tunnels will be able to go beyond NYPSE, if they can even make it to NYPSE that is, which will require installation of third rails in NYPSE.

Hasn't Metro-North's New Haven Line demonstrated that dual mode third rail / catenary equipment is possible? I realize the New Haven Line has the wrong third rail shoe for LIRR, but isn't it the case that there would be nothing difficult about buying equipment that was identical except for having the opposite style third rail shoe?

Alternatively, if we ended up with ESA running through to NYPSE, the New Haven Line running through to the old NYP, and the other Metro-North lines terminating at GCT, it ought to be possible to convert two tracks of the Metro-North mainline through Manhattan to LIRR style third rail and convert the New Haven Line equipment, and then NJT could have dual mode catenary / LIRR third rail equipment that could run through to both LIRR and the New Haven Line.

The problem in NYP is not the lack of platform faces but the lack of platform surface area attached to those faces and a woeful shortage of ingress and egress stairways. That is why run throughs will not work as well as it would if there was adequate platform surface area and stairs. This has been modeled many times and established over and over again, and is ignored only by those who have some other axe to grind. Such is life. You just have to arrive on a 10 car MLV and watch how long it takes for you to get off the platform, even if the other track adjacent to the platform is not in use, which in itself is a questionable good luck situation during the rush hours.

Could some of the track spaces be filled in with more platform to address this?

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Most trains that get turned on a plat happen during off peak hours, not during rush hours. During rush hour, pretty much only the NJT trains on tracks 1-4 actually turn on the plat. Almost everything else runs through, and probably at least half of the NJT trains that run through to Queens, park at Sunnyside for the day until needed for the evening rush.

Doesn't that waste an awful lot of East River tunnel capacity that LIRR could otherwise use to bring people into Manhattan?

 

[AlanB]

Most trains that get turned on a plat happen during off peak hours, not during rush hours. During rush hour, pretty much only the NJT trains on tracks 1-4 actually turn on the plat. Almost everything else runs through, and probably at least half of the NJT trains that run through to Queens, park at Sunnyside for the day until needed for the evening rush.

Doesn't that waste an awful lot of East River tunnel capacity that LIRR could otherwise use to bring people into Manhattan?

No, NJT is sending trains out of the city in the morning, the LIRR is sending trains into the city. The LIRR has exclusive use of the Line 4 tunnel inbound and shares the Line 2 tunnel with NJT and Amtrak. I've never seen the schedule or stopped to watch for any great length of time, but I'd guess that probably 3/4ths of the trains that NJT sends east end up in Sunnyside yard for the day. The remainder go around the loop and back into Penn rather quickly.