When I'm at home listening to the scanner, the only channel I hear traffic on is AAR80 (161.310mhz) - what I'm hearing is dispatch traffic from the UP dispatcher and traffic from the engine/crew back. My question is: I'm assuming that UP and Amtrak operate as separate entities, ie, there is UP specific traffic, and Amtrak traffic - Am I looking in the wrong places for the Amtrak traffic, or, do they have that little to say? The other thought along these lines is: maybe the UP traffic is higher power and/or the antenna are in more optimal locations relative to here (though when I google 161.310 UP all I find is the dispatch is 45 miles north of here and on the other side of 6000' mountains). So, bigger question: when Amtrak is a "guest" on somebody else's tracks, what's the etiquette btwn the loco company and Amtrak? Basically what happens up front is none of Amtrak's business, ie, they only worry about the pax and consist; or is there more cooperation btwn the host and guest companies... tied to: does Amtrak piggyback their comm on the host company's?
Where is transmitter? Separate systems: UP / Amtrak?
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Ryan
Court Jester
This assumption is false. When Amtrak is on UP rails, it uses UP channels to talk to UP dispatchers.
You can look at the frequency lists on OTOL to see what frequencies to listen on.
Thanks for the reply. Actually OTOL is where I got the full set of AAR frequencies to program the scanner... and it is AAR 80 as listed there that I hear the traffic on. But when I listen, what I hear is about permission to enter a block, switch states, or my favorite question: where are you? (just begging for PTC), etc... but nothing that I would call Amtrak traffic, ie,water leak in sleeper 503 (*), shortage of cheesecakes etc... or is this type of traffic only handled at stations and not over the AAR channels?
Though the related question is: is the AAR 80 transceiver that I hear, really located 40 miles to the north and on the other side of 6000' mtns, or are there repeaters that I'm hearing (when I google such: directly from Dunsmuir seems to be the case???)... if I'm hearing directly from Dunsmuir, than my comments about using onboard transceivers to implement PTC just might be a path, and not the BNSF new poles every 2 miles.
again, thanks - greg
(*) last time on the CZ one of the coach cars because of a leak went dry and the bathrooms stopped working... but the related point is: the crew was overhead saying, that such had been reported back to Amtrak. (was such done likely via the same dispatcher that the engineer would be talking to, just the message would be forwarded by said person to Amtrak, or would there be a separate mechanism)?
Though the related question is: is the AAR 80 transceiver that I hear, really located 40 miles to the north and on the other side of 6000' mtns, or are there repeaters that I'm hearing (when I google such: directly from Dunsmuir seems to be the case???)... if I'm hearing directly from Dunsmuir, than my comments about using onboard transceivers to implement PTC just might be a path, and not the BNSF new poles every 2 miles.
again, thanks - greg
(*) last time on the CZ one of the coach cars because of a leak went dry and the bathrooms stopped working... but the related point is: the crew was overhead saying, that such had been reported back to Amtrak. (was such done likely via the same dispatcher that the engineer would be talking to, just the message would be forwarded by said person to Amtrak, or would there be a separate mechanism)?
the_traveler
Engineer
Actually there are transmitters and repeaters all along the section. And Amtrak uses UP dispatchers while on UP tracks, BNSF dispatchers while on BNSF tracks, CSX dispatchers while on CSX tracks, etc... And those dispatchers are nowhere near the train most of the time.
UP dispatch is in Omaha, NE even though the SL is in Yuma, AZ! BNSF dispatch is in Ft Worth, TX even though the EB is in Shelby, MT! CSX dispatch is in Jacksonville, FL even though the LSL is in Utica, NY!
UP dispatch is in Omaha, NE even though the SL is in Yuma, AZ! BNSF dispatch is in Ft Worth, TX even though the EB is in Shelby, MT! CSX dispatch is in Jacksonville, FL even though the LSL is in Utica, NY!
Ryan
Court Jester
Cell phone to the CNOC in Wilmington. By the conductor/AC.
Shortline
Conductor
Phone. I assure you, neither the engineer, or dispatcher care about the supply of cheesecake. Passenger trains require very limited communication with the dispatcher when things work as they should, a simple "proceed on signal indication" is sufficient most times at crew change points, unless there are delays or problems.
Ryan
Court Jester
A somewhat related radio question.
On roads that require signals to be called (CSX, for example), the engineer calls the signal and the conductor reads it back over the radio (since he's in the back with us meat sacks).
On the freights, since they're both sitting in the cab, I assume they just talk to each other without using the radio, right?
On roads that require signals to be called (CSX, for example), the engineer calls the signal and the conductor reads it back over the radio (since he's in the back with us meat sacks).
On the freights, since they're both sitting in the cab, I assume they just talk to each other without using the radio, right?
Shortline
Conductor
Correct, they confirm in cab before communicating over the radio on Roads that require calling signals. Most other railroads require communication and agreement of signals in cab, even if not required to call over radio.
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So, the voice I hear as the UP dispatcher is there on Dodge St in OMA? But they route the comm so that I only hear that which is pertinent to trains near me to transmitters/repeaters near me? Interesting - had never considered such... had (I guess falsely) assumed that the dispatcher had local knowledge (and was probably in Roseville or somewhere in that area) - but is sounds like the dispatcher actually has total knowledge of the system? Is the dispatcher somehow tied into UP's TCS (as source of overview)? Thanks for the reply - one of the points that I appreciate of this forum is the level of knowledge of its members
x100 .So - the handitalkies I see on the crew are only for local/ontrain comm, and cell phones for Amtrak specific matters? Again, not what I would have expected, but makes sense.
This is what I was wondering... on a flying cattlecar, the cockpit comms with the ground, but the crew has a parallel comm path to deal with the cabin and needs there of. The cockpit worries about getting the plane from pt a to pt b; the attendants worry about the cheesecake shortages etc and both are carried over entirely different channels.
the_traveler
Engineer
Correct! Even though the dispatcher is hundreds or thousands of miles away, they only work and control that one specific segment all day and every day. Their computer display shows where every train, track and switch is in their section.So, the voice I hear as the UP dispatcher is there on Dodge St in OMA? But they route the comm so that I only hear that which is pertinent to trains near me to transmitters/repeaters near me? Interesting - had never considered such... had (I guess falsely) assumed that the dispatcher had local knowledge (and was probably in Roseville or somewhere in that area) - but is sounds like the dispatcher actually has total knowledge of the system? Is the dispatcher somehow tied into UP's TCS (as source of overview)? Thanks for the reply - one of the points that I appreciate of this forum is the level of knowledge of its members
Air Traffic Control (ATC) is the same way. Once airborne out of JFK to LA, you hear "contact NY control at xxx.xxxx", "contact Cleveland control at xxx.xxxx", etc... Those controllers are nowhere near the plane or those cities, but they work the same section every day. The only time a flight is handled locally is 1) at the airport, 2) for a short time after takeoff and 3) for a short time before landing.
Ryan
Court Jester
That's pretty much it, yeah.
Ryan
Court Jester
ATC is similar, but not exactly the same - rather than one location, the Area Control Centers are disbursed in the territory they work. For example, ZDC (Washington Center) is located in Leesburg (near Dulles) and controls the airspace from PA to NC and as far in as WV. The center is broken into sections, both by altitude and footprint, and controllers can be assigned to work any of the sectors at the center.
Another factor is your location in relation to the location of the train and, the location of the repeater in use. Your may hear the dispatcher but may or may not hear the engineer. A section of a route may be covered by several repeaters and dispatchers can select a repeater that covers the area where the train is located. That may preclude hearing the dispatcher different areas along the same route. For any given scenario, you are most likely to hear the dispatcher, to a lesser extent the engineer, and least likely the conductor as he is on a handheld radio.
That's what was surprising to me: I'm hearing both sides of the conversation (and typically equally well (most of the time)). ... though I'm wondering if the "where are you?" questions, aren't btwn the crew on handitalkies... can't imagine a dispatcher asking such... but then again. ;-) ;-(
Given the explanations above: once a comm is picked up by a local repeater/receiver, how is it then routed back to OMA or wherever? I know that UP is famous for their millions of miles of fiber optics... per chance?? And when the dispatcher wants to talk to a particular train, I assume that comm is routed to the nearest repeater/transmitter, and then transmitted? Related: for UP, are the dispatchers actually in their new building in OMA, or are they in some secure bunker nearby?
And yet again: thanks to all those here that very clearly know their vocation/avocations - greg
ps. any way to figure out where in fact the repeater is that I'm hearing - google doesn't seem to be helping - I'm about 20 miles NE of RDD?
MattW
Conductor
Out where I am with CSX's Georgia Subdivision east of Atlanta, I can hear dispatch all over the place when they're using the dispatch channel, and usually get a good copy when they're talking to the crew on the road channel, but I have to be within 1/4 mile to get a good copy from the crew's handheld radio when they're doing switching ops and within about 1.5-2 miles to get a good copy from the locomotive when they call signals. I can hear them all over, but it's not clear. Yes, part of that is my antenna, I'm a Ham Radio operator so my antenna is tuned about 20MHz lower than the railroad frequencies.
A gent that works 2m ;-) ... I'm way old school, used to work 160m and 40... but was one of those that got his General when he was 13... and the final was a pair of 807's ... how's that for remembering when the dinosaurs still ran around?
MattW
Conductor
Well, I'm only on 2m because my dad wouldn't let me drill through the walls to run coax down from the 40m attic dipole we actually installed. I had to literally bolt an antenna on my desk to get on the air at all and now I've put one in my car. I've had my General now for 5 years, but never done anything on HF
Quite often, RR repeaters are located on the same sites (typically mountain tops) as other commercial and government radio systems. Via the website radioreference.com (or even the FCC website) you can view license information including locations associated with their licenses.
Gemuser
Service Attendant
In the USA that is true but in other contients/countries it is not true. In Australia there are exactly TWO ATC centres [NOT including local towers] one in Brisbane & one in Melbourne. Brisbane controls the contient from just north of Sydney and out east over the Tasman/Coral Sea as far as the Australian FIRs go. Melbourne controls the southern half of the conient and the Australian FIRs in the Indian & Great Southern Oceans to the west & south.
Another difference between railroads and airlines communication......Airliners used to use a certain part of the aviation frequency spectrum on "company frequencies", allocated to individual airlines for company dispatcher communications with crew for things like passenger counts, connection information, and any other issues that didn't directly involve vectors from air traffic control.....most airlines used the service's of ARINC for this....nowadays, most of that is all done by encrypted computer text messages, cutting out thatCorrect! Even though the dispatcher is hundreds or thousands of miles away, they only work and control that one specific segment all day and every day. Their computer display shows where every train, track and switch is in their section.So, the voice I hear as the UP dispatcher is there on Dodge St in OMA? But they route the comm so that I only hear that which is pertinent to trains near me to transmitters/repeaters near me? Interesting - had never considered such... had (I guess falsely) assumed that the dispatcher had local knowledge (and was probably in Roseville or somewhere in that area) - but is sounds like the dispatcher actually has total knowledge of the system? Is the dispatcher somehow tied into UP's TCS (as source of overview)? Thanks for the reply - one of the points that I appreciate of this forum is the level of knowledge of its members
Air Traffic Control (ATC) is the same way. Once airborne out of JFK to LA, you hear "contact NY control at xxx.xxxx", "contact Cleveland control at xxx.xxxx", etc... Those controllers are nowhere near the plane or those cities, but they work the same section every day. The only time a flight is handled locally is 1) at the airport, 2) for a short time after takeoff and 3) for a short time before landing.
chatter from the air......
And planes flying in really remote areas -- over oceans and the Arctic, typically -- use special frequencies in the HF band (i.e,, LOWER frequencies than used in the continental USA and in Europe) to provide transmissions over very long distances. You can hear the difference when flying in these remote regions if you have the opportunity to listen in on cockpit communications with the headsets at your airline seat.
mwmnp
Service Attendant
The FCC databases (accessible through this starting page) are going to be your most accurate place to look, though they're not necessarily the most user-friendly or fastest to use.
While I am not at all familiar with the area, the tower you are hearing is probably the one around 40° 54' 32.5'' N, 122° 26' 50.0'' W, listed by Union Pacific as being on top of Sugarloaf Mountain. As for some of the nitty-gritty technical details that, as a HAM, you will probably appreciate, the FCC call sign is KMJ512, the one antenna on the tower is 15 m up the tower but 335 m above average terrain due to the mountaintop locale, and that antenna is authorized to broadcast on frequencies of 160.890 MHz and 161.310 MHz with an effective radiated power of 56 Watts, vertically polarized.
If you do a search for this tower's call sign on the FCC database, you'll find that four other Union Pacific towers in California share this call sign and, subsequently, license. It is quite common for several dispatcher towers or defect detectors (all of which also need a license to transmit on the railroad frequencies) owned and operating by a single railroad to share a single call sign and license. Furthermore, for this license, there are four additional authorizations included for the use of mobile radios within a 40 km radius of four of the five fixed towers included in the license. Making some assumptions, these are probably authorizations for maintenance-of-way personnel to use to communicate with each other via mobile radios and not get in the way of any other communications on the primary road channel. For the tower on top of Sugarloaf Mountain, the authorization is for mobile radios to use a frequency of 161.040 MHz.
As for the means by which communications are routed to and from this tower and the Union Pacific NOC in Omaha, that can also usually be surmised using the FCC databases. One of the easier ways is use an Antenna Structure Registration (ASR) listed on a license, go to this FCC search, put in the number, and see other antennas and services that are associated with a particular tower. However, in this case, there is no ASR # listed for the tower, so the next best option is to go back to first link and search for all services licensed within a small radius of the tower. Using one of these two methods for the BNSF towers in the region where I live, I figured out that communications are sent to and from most towers via a digital terrestrial microwave system connected to a central node. From there, the path is blurrier, but using what I know about telecommunications systems and later reading this very informative thread, I determined everything eventually goes via fiber optic to or from the BNSF NOC in Ft. Worth. Many UP towers operate in a similar manner, only with communications and data originating or terminating in Omaha instead. Indeed, searching the FCC database, UP does have several licenses associated with Sugarloaf Mountain for the use of digital microwave systems operating around 0.9-1.0 GHz and in the IEEE C-band.
Ryan
Court Jester
Excellent bit of detective work there, thanks for sharing it.
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