Who Decides Which Train Goes (off NEC)?

[Nathanael]

Incidentally the Empire Corridor - NYP to Spuyten Duyvil and Poughkeepsie to Hoffmans + Post Road (Rensselaer) is also controlled out of NY CETC as a separate Section (I am thinking Section C but could be wrong).

And how about the Whirlpool bridge?

For an example which I actually mostly understand, consider a Wolverine train. It starts out in Chicago being dispatched by Amtrak from Union Station. Then it has to get permission from NS to get onto the Chicago Line; at that point it is under the control of the NS dispatcher. Then the NS dispatcher has to get permission from the Metra dispatcher for the Rock Island Line to cross Englewood Crossing (Metra "owns" the crossing). Eventually, the NS dispatcher hands back to Amtrak at Porter, Indiana. IIRC, Amtrak "owns" the crossing with the South Shore Line, so the Amtrak dispatcher handles the train all the way to Kalamazoo. There, it's handed off to the Norfolk Southern dispatcher (though Amtrak is supposed to take this section over soon). At Battle Creek, it has to be handed to the CN dispatcher for just a couple of blocks and the station. Then back to NS (soon to be Amtrak). Then over to Conrail Shared Assets between Wayne and Dearborn. Then it gets even more complicated in the Detroit area, as Conrail and CN cross over each other repeatedly, and I have never figured out what the dance is there, and finally onto CN for the trip to Pontiac.

 

[RampWidget]

Makes you wonder about the 'mega' dispatch centers in places like Omaha, Jacksonville, etc.....

Don't wonder. Pretty sure after a bad hurricane in Florida a few years back CSX shut down nationally until they could get things straight.

Which hurricane was that?

 

[RampWidget]

Makes you wonder about the 'mega' dispatch centers in places like Omaha, Jacksonville, etc.....

Actually, CSX decentralized their dispatch offices three years ago. All ten of the dispatching offices are back in their respective division headquarters cities.

Edit: Missed the earlier posts that already covered the subject very well. My mistake.

 

[OBS]

Boston does not identify Sections by number but by name I believe.

I don't believe that I've ever heard them call anything but Amtrak Shoreline Dispatcher. In theory there should be some divisions, but if there are I've never been able to figure out where or how they tell them apart. CETC you can tell; not so with NHV to BOS.

Actually, quite often I hear the engineer call the "main line" dispatcher. Don't know if that is designated for a certain section on NHV-BOS, or just new terminology.

 

[jis]

Any thought to moving a contingency operations center outside of the NEC, even to someplace like Harrisburg or Albany which has significant Amtrak operations but is not on the NEC proper?

IMHO the probability of that happening is somewhere between zero and nil, since there appears to be no business justification for such an act.

Incidentally the Empire Corridor - NYP to Spuyten Duyvil and Poughkeepsie to Hoffmans + Post Road (Rensselaer) is also controlled out of NY CETC as a separate Section (I am thinking Section C but could be wrong).

And how about the Whirlpool bridge?

Whirlpool Bridge is under the Empire dispatcher, the same Section C or whatever it is.

Boston does not identify Sections by number but by name I believe.

I don't believe that I've ever heard them call anything but Amtrak Shoreline Dispatcher. In theory there should be some divisions, but if there are I've never been able to figure out where or how they tell them apart. CETC you can tell; not so with NHV to BOS.

Actually, quite often I hear the engineer call the "main line" dispatcher. Don't know if that is designated for a certain section on NHV-BOS, or just new terminology.

Unfortunately I have neither had a chance to visit Boston CETC nor talked to anyone with first hand knowledge of how it is setup. I suppose it is conceivable that the Shore Line does not have enough traffic to break it up into multiple sections and a single dispatcher can handle the whole thing. But I don't know for sure.
I am almost certain the NHV - PVD can be handled by a single person. I just thought that PVD - BOS had enough MBTA traffic to deserve a separate section. but maybe MBTA does not have that much traffic there when compared something like MNRR, LIRR or NJT.

 

[OBS]

Any thought to moving a contingency operations center outside of the NEC, even to someplace like Harrisburg or Albany which has significant Amtrak operations but is not on the NEC proper?

IMHO the probability of that happening is somewhere between zero and nil, since there appears to be no business justification for such an act.

Incidentally the Empire Corridor - NYP to Spuyten Duyvil and Poughkeepsie to Hoffmans + Post Road (Rensselaer) is also controlled out of NY CETC as a separate Section (I am thinking Section C but could be wrong).

And how about the Whirlpool bridge?

Whirlpool Bridge is under the Empire dispatcher, the same Section C or whatever it is.

Boston does not identify Sections by number but by name I believe.

I don't believe that I've ever heard them call anything but Amtrak Shoreline Dispatcher. In theory there should be some divisions, but if there are I've never been able to figure out where or how they tell them apart. CETC you can tell; not so with NHV to BOS.

Actually, quite often I hear the engineer call the "main line" dispatcher. Don't know if that is designated for a certain section on NHV-BOS, or just new terminology.

Unfortunately I have neither had a chance to visit Boston CETC nor talked to anyone with first hand knowledge of how it is setup. I suppose it is conceivable that the Shore Line does not have enough traffic to break it up into multiple sections and a single dispatcher can handle the whole thing. But I don;t know for sure.
I am almost certain the NHV - PVD can be handled by a single person. I just thought that PVD - BOS had enough MBTA traffic to deserve a separate section. but maybe MBTA does not have that much traffic there when compared something like MNRR, LIRR or NJT.

And they also handle the SPG line, don't they? It has been several years since I worked that direction, I don't remember what they call the dispatcher from over there...

ETA I want to say they call it Springfield line, so there is Main line and Springfield line.

 

[jis]

And they also handle the SPG line, don't they? It has been several years since I worked that direction, I don't remember what they call the dispatcher from over there...ETA I want to say they call it Springfield line, so there is Main line and Springfield line.

Yes indeed! They do. But I am sure that one is a separate dispatching desk. Basically everything under Amtrak control North/East of Mill River is controlled out of Boston CETC.

One other thing I don't know the details of, is whether Boston South Station has a separate control center, even though collocated with CETC like New York does in PSCC, which is by the way, jointly operated with LIRR, and is probably one of the busiest dispatching centers in the country.

 

[OBS]

And they also handle the SPG line, don't they? It has been several years since I worked that direction, I don't remember what they call the dispatcher from over there...

ETA I want to say they call it Springfield line, so there is Main line and Springfield line.

Yes indeed! They do. But I am sure that one is a separate dispatching desk. Basically everything under Amtrak control North/East of Mill River is controlled out of Boston CETC.
One other thing I don;t know the details of, is whether Boston South Station has a separate control center, even though collocated with CETC like New York does in PSCC, which is by the way, jointly operated with LIRR, and is probably one of teh busiest dispatching centers in the country.

All moves in/out of station are handled by the "terminal dispatcher"....What that consists of, I don't know.

 

[Nathanael]

Any thought to moving a contingency operations center outside of the NEC, even to someplace like Harrisburg or Albany which has significant Amtrak operations but is not on the NEC proper?

FWIW, Amtrak actually has a contingency operations center for the NEC, somewhere in the vicinity of Boston IIRC.

The thing is, the way the signal systems work, that's a great contingency for if the staff can't get to CNOC, but it's completely useless if CNOC floods and shorts out all the wiring. They haven't really built things *that* redundantly.

Global warming is causing sea level rise as well as higher storm surge levels. It would be advisable for Amtrak to move all the critical electronics *way* up, like 10 feet up. I don't think people are thinking that far ahead though.

 

[gmushial]

Any thought to moving a contingency operations center outside of the NEC, even to someplace like Harrisburg or Albany which has significant Amtrak operations but is not on the NEC proper?

FWIW, Amtrak actually has a contingency operations center for the NEC, somewhere in the vicinity of Boston IIRC.

The thing is, the way the signal systems work, that's a great contingency for if the staff can't get to CNOC, but it's completely useless if CNOC floods and shorts out all the wiring. They haven't really built things *that* redundantly.

Global warming is causing sea level rise as well as higher storm surge levels. It would be advisable for Amtrak to move all the critical electronics *way* up, like 10 feet up. I don't think people are thinking that far ahead though.

Suspect given the "political correctness" of certain factions within Congress, any monies to do such would be nixed, given that GW is "a liberal conspiracy" or other such label (thinking about especially Inhofe of OK). [but being a mtn climber, with few exceptions, very much have seen the glaciers recede over the last forty years - making most big mountains more difficult and more dangerous to climb.]

 

[jis]

FWIW, Amtrak actually has a contingency operations center for the NEC, somewhere in the vicinity of Boston IIRC.

The thing is, the way the signal systems work, that's a great contingency for if the staff can't get to CNOC, but it's completely useless if CNOC floods and shorts out all the wiring. They haven't really built things *that* redundantly.

Could you provide some documentary evidence for this claim of yours? The ARINC contract required a level of redundancy that allows any of the CETC to temporarily take over the function of any other CETC. What you are suggesting is that ARINC has not met its contractual obligation.
What on earth does flooding of CNOC have to do with what happens to CETC New York or CETC Boston? Why would flooding there disable all signals and operations in NEC South if ARINC has met its contractual obligation?

 

[gmushial]

FWIW, Amtrak actually has a contingency operations center for the NEC, somewhere in the vicinity of Boston IIRC.

The thing is, the way the signal systems work, that's a great contingency for if the staff can't get to CNOC, but it's completely useless if CNOC floods and shorts out all the wiring. They haven't really built things *that* redundantly.

Could you provide some documentary evidence for this claim of yours? The ARINC contract required a level of redundancy that allows any of the CETC to temporarily take over the function of any other CETC. What you are suggesting is that ARINC has not met its contractual obligation.
What on earth does flooding of CNOC have to do with what happens to CETC New York or CETC Boston? Why would flooding there disable all signals and operations in NEC South if ARINC has met its contractual obligation?

Maybe it means that the signaling voltages aren't buffered and as such a (flood induced) low resistance (a "short") might bring down the signaling voltages throughout the system?

 

[jis]

FWIW, Amtrak actually has a contingency operations center for the NEC, somewhere in the vicinity of Boston IIRC.

The thing is, the way the signal systems work, that's a great contingency for if the staff can't get to CNOC, but it's completely useless if CNOC floods and shorts out all the wiring. They haven't really built things *that* redundantly.

Could you provide some documentary evidence for this claim of yours? The ARINC contract required a level of redundancy that allows any of the CETC to temporarily take over the function of any other CETC. What you are suggesting is that ARINC has not met its contractual obligation.
What on earth does flooding of CNOC have to do with what happens to CETC New York or CETC Boston? Why would flooding there disable all signals and operations in NEC South if ARINC has met its contractual obligation?

Maybe it means that the signaling voltages aren't buffered and as such a (flood induced) low resistance (a "short") might bring down the signaling voltages throughout the system?

If that is the case then ARINC has failed to meet its contract obligations, which I find hard to believe. Hence my question.

 

[gmushial]

FWIW, Amtrak actually has a contingency operations center for the NEC, somewhere in the vicinity of Boston IIRC.

The thing is, the way the signal systems work, that's a great contingency for if the staff can't get to CNOC, but it's completely useless if CNOC floods and shorts out all the wiring. They haven't really built things *that* redundantly.

Could you provide some documentary evidence for this claim of yours? The ARINC contract required a level of redundancy that allows any of the CETC to temporarily take over the function of any other CETC. What you are suggesting is that ARINC has not met its contractual obligation.
What on earth does flooding of CNOC have to do with what happens to CETC New York or CETC Boston? Why would flooding there disable all signals and operations in NEC South if ARINC has met its contractual obligation?

Maybe it means that the signaling voltages aren't buffered and as such a (flood induced) low resistance (a "short") might bring down the signaling voltages throughout the system?

If that is the case then ARINC has failed to meet its contract obligations, which I find hard to believe. Hence my question.

I would have to agree w/re failing to meet contractual obligations... but it wouldn't be the first time that a backup system either brought down the primary, or failed to perform when/as expected, because of the lack of buffering of signals..

 

[Nathanael]

FWIW, Amtrak actually has a contingency operations center for the NEC, somewhere in the vicinity of Boston IIRC.

The thing is, the way the signal systems work, that's a great contingency for if the staff can't get to CNOC, but it's completely useless if CNOC floods and shorts out all the wiring. They haven't really built things *that* redundantly.

Could you provide some documentary evidence for this claim of yours?

I can't be sure of this. Hey, maybe they did provide sufficient redundancy... that would be great... but I seriously doubt that it was required by contract.

The ARINC contract required a level of redundancy that allows any of the CETC to temporarily take over the function of any other CETC.

*Under what conditions?* I would be willing to bet it doesn't specify all of the possible flood conditions as situtations which the contractors are required to provide redundancy for.

Floodproofing electronics is remarkably finicky work, due to the way water conducts electricity. Even the Navy doesn't manage to make its equipment completely redundant under flood conditions. If the NEC was running with a truly new-build electrical system and a new-build signalling system, I might believe it was completely redundant and protected against flooding, but given that everything is patched onto the Pennsylvania Railroad system, I do not believe it.

 

[jis]

Frankly I have no idea what you are talking about. But that's OK, I can be quite dense at times.

Of course there could exist a flood condition where it will fail but that does not mean that there are not many other flood conditions where it would not.

This is not a question of flood proofing electronics at CNOC. It is question of being able to isolate CNOC. Since CNOC did not exist when the PRR system was built and there presumably is a large cable bank that connects the whole mess to CNOC, I don't see why it would be so difficult to isolate and shut down the CTEC there should the need arise, without affecting anything else. I have not been talking abut flood proofing anything, but just about transferring all functionality to another center.

 

[gmushial]

FWIW, Amtrak actually has a contingency operations center for the NEC, somewhere in the vicinity of Boston IIRC.

The thing is, the way the signal systems work, that's a great contingency for if the staff can't get to CNOC, but it's completely useless if CNOC floods and shorts out all the wiring. They haven't really built things *that* redundantly.

Could you provide some documentary evidence for this claim of yours?

I can't be sure of this. Hey, maybe they did provide sufficient redundancy... that would be great... but I seriously doubt that it was required by contract.

The ARINC contract required a level of redundancy that allows any of the CETC to temporarily take over the function of any other CETC.

*Under what conditions?* I would be willing to bet it doesn't specify all of the possible flood conditions as situtations which the contractors are required to provide redundancy for.

Floodproofing electronics is remarkably finicky work, due to the way water conducts electricity. Even the Navy doesn't manage to make its equipment completely redundant under flood conditions. If the NEC was running with a truly new-build electrical system and a new-build signalling system, I might believe it was completely redundant and protected against flooding, but given that everything is patched onto the Pennsylvania Railroad system, I do not believe it.

Have to agree... and one of the reasons optical links are so delightful - hard to "short" one out, or have one system drag another down.

 

[Nathanael]

and there presumably is a large cable bank that connects the whole mess to CNOC,

Wanna bet on whether that cable bank is (1) electrical, (2) below flood level, and (3) not completely floodproofed against water pouring in from a flooded CNOC? Mmm.

If I saw signal cabinets elevated on the top of poles, I'd be more likely to believe that the isolation / disconnection switches were above flood level.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Any thought to moving a contingency operations center outside of the NEC, even to someplace like Harrisburg or Albany which has significant Amtrak operations but is not on the NEC proper?

IMHO the probability of that happening is somewhere between zero and nil, since there appears to be no business justification for such an act.

Incidentally the Empire Corridor - NYP to Spuyten Duyvil and Poughkeepsie to Hoffmans + Post Road (Rensselaer) is also controlled out of NY CETC as a separate Section (I am thinking Section C but could be wrong).

And how about the Whirlpool bridge?

Whirlpool Bridge is under the Empire dispatcher, the same Section C or whatever it is.

Boston does not identify Sections by number but by name I believe.

I don't believe that I've ever heard them call anything but Amtrak Shoreline Dispatcher. In theory there should be some divisions, but if there are I've never been able to figure out where or how they tell them apart. CETC you can tell; not so with NHV to BOS.

Actually, quite often I hear the engineer call the "main line" dispatcher. Don't know if that is designated for a certain section on NHV-BOS, or just new terminology.

Unfortunately I have neither had a chance to visit Boston CETC nor talked to anyone with first hand knowledge of how it is setup. I suppose it is conceivable that the Shore Line does not have enough traffic to break it up into multiple sections and a single dispatcher can handle the whole thing. But I don;t know for sure.
I am almost certain the NHV - PVD can be handled by a single person. I just thought that PVD - BOS had enough MBTA traffic to deserve a separate section. but maybe MBTA does not have that much traffic there when compared something like MNRR, LIRR or NJT.

And they also handle the SPG line, don't they? It has been several years since I worked that direction, I don't remember what they call the dispatcher from over there...

ETA I want to say they call it Springfield line, so there is Main line and Springfield line.

For the record, even though this thread is older, the Shore Line(NHB Line) has multiple, named dispatching territories. Typically, a weekday will have 5 or 6 dispatchers while a weekend will have 3 or 4, depending on track work.

Throughout the years, you can typically count on a Shore Line dispatcher, a Main Dispatcher, a Corridor Dispatcher and a Terminal Dispatcher. Currently, you have a New London Dispatcher and South County dispatcher. When this thread originated, you had a Point dispatcher and prior to that, you had a Midland dispatcher.

When this thread originated, the Empire territory was controlled by the Hudson Line dispatcher. Currently, the territory is split with a Hudson North dispatcher on weekdays to facilitate construction. The Hudson Line dispatcher also has the Port Road branch and the Whirlpool Bridge.

 

[CREW-DORM#2524]

Here in NC tonight we have a conflict between 76 and 91. They're both running late and are in each other's way. Both dispatchers are involved (CSX & NS). If there are no freight trains involved, who decides which train gets the signal? The dispatchers or does CNOC?

Always decided by dispatchers, and specifically by the dispatcher for that section of railroad.
Any individual block of track is under the control of a *particular* dispatcher. Sometimes the permission of two dispatchers may be needed to release a train into a block, but normally one dispatcher is in charge of any given section.

When two dispatchers are involved, for instance at a diamond crossing between two different railroads, one dispatcher is in charge of the intersection and the other dispatcher has to get his permission before using it.

In the case of NCRR from Cary to Raleigh, I believe the NS dispatchers have control over all the "straight" moves, *including* the ones on CSX-owned track -- I think this was part of the arrangement for bidirectional running -- but I may be totally mistaken. Someone who knows the territory could explain what the actual dispatcher territories and signal arrangements are. Getting 91 off of the NCRR corridor onto the CSX corridor at Cary would require the permission of the CSX dispatcher.

Between Boylan(Raleigh) and Fetner(Cary) the RR is dispatched by the CSX FD Dispatcher in Florence. When 76 and 91 are due at the same time, 76 goes first. Being a State train, they give it preferential treatment. In the morning when 92 is running late and is due in the same time as 80, CNOC will call CSX and request 92 be run first. All the freight RR's have a passenger desk with a liaison between them and Amtrak.

 

[CREW-DORM#2524]

TR7, Wow! I didn't even look at the dates on this thread before responding!

 

[Thirdrail7]

TR7, Wow! I didn't even look at the dates on this thread before responding!

Dates, schmates!! I, for one, appreciate your response. Just because the thread is old doesn't make your post or information any less relevant. The concept and original question remains valid and will likely continue to evolve as OTP thresholds, incentives and funding continue to change.

Thank you for the information, Crew-Dorm#2524 because I'm sure you realize sometimes CNOC will make a request based upon crew profiles as well...and 80's profile (particularly on the "T" side) is now horrible....if you catch my drift. :blink: h34r:

 

[Palmetto]

I believe the only tracks owned by Amtrak and thusly dispatched by them is in the NEC, so the freight company that owns the tracks is who dispatches.

No. Amtrak owns part of the Michigan Line, and the Post Road Branch in New York State. Michigan is dispatched by their center in Chicago. IINM, Amtrak also owns some trackage in the New Orleans Terminal area, and that is also dispatched by them.

 

[west point]

Amtrak does own and dispatch about 2 miles from New Orleans (NOUT) to east city junction (NS). As well part of line from NOUT to not jct but unknown how much ? Dispatched by Chicago. Also CHI Union station.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Even if Amtrak owns the territory, they still have to hand off/receive trains from connecting dispatchers. Sometimes, there is conflict and the host railroad may want things in a certain order. Therefore, it still depends on who controls the traffic at the time.