Winona, MN to become unstaffed soon

[trainviews]

How is baggage service handled in other countries? From what I can tell (and my limited experience in Europe), few if any InterCity and HSR train offer checked baggage. Is it generally offered on long distance-type trains and generally not offered on InterCity (Regional/corridor, in Amtrak-speak) trains?

On most European trains checked baggage is either very marginal or has been cancelled all together.

I do not have knowledge of every country, but I don't think any of the European train companies ever offered "free" checked bagage service included in the fare - or at least hasn't done so for decades. Checked baggage comes/came with an extra fee, which can be quite expensive.

This has led the bagage service to be little used, and several of the national train companies have dropped the service altogether. Few used it and although expensive, the fees could not cover the cost of keeping up the system.

Of course this also has to do with the vast majority of train travel in Europe being corridor travel, while overnight sleeper trains are suffering a slow death.

 

[neroden]

Of course this also has to do with the vast majority of train travel in Europe being corridor travel, while overnight sleeper trains are suffering a slow death.

In turn, this has to do with the fact that "overnight" in Europe generally means you're in a different country, and cross-border rail travel is the opposite of seamless.

 

[BCL]

How is baggage service handled in other countries? From what I can tell (and my limited experience in Europe), few if any InterCity and HSR train offer checked baggage. Is it generally offered on long distance-type trains and generally not offered on InterCity (Regional/corridor, in Amtrak-speak) trains?

On most European trains checked baggage is either very marginal or has been cancelled all together.

I do not have knowledge of every country, but I don't think any of the European train companies ever offered "free" checked bagage service included in the fare - or at least hasn't done so for decades. Checked baggage comes/came with an extra fee, which can be quite expensive.

This has led the bagage service to be little used, and several of the national train companies have dropped the service altogether. Few used it and although expensive, the fees could not cover the cost of keeping up the system.

Of course this also has to do with the vast majority of train travel in Europe being corridor travel, while overnight sleeper trains are suffering a slow death.

I was talking to someone about taking an LD trip on Amtrak and then about checking in baggage. He grew up outside the US, traveled by train probably dozens of times in his native country, and it never occurred to him that there might be checked baggage like air travel.

 

[trainviews]

Of course this also has to do with the vast majority of train travel in Europe being corridor travel, while overnight sleeper trains are suffering a slow death.

In turn, this has to do with the fact that "overnight" in Europe generally means you're in a different country, and cross-border rail travel is the opposite of seamless.

Not really true, at least as long as you're within Schengen (most of EU plus a few other countries but excluding the UK). Then there's no border stops and no border control.

Indeed cross border trains are becoming much more common and frequent as economies and labor markets have integrated. This goes both for HSR (France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany etc.) and it goes for locals or ordinary intercity trains (i.e. Vienna-Budapest/every 2 hours or Copenhagen to Malmö and on into Sweden - every 10 minutes!). It really is just the overnights and long distance trains disappearing.

 

[neroden]

Cross border rail in Europe is still the opposite of seamless on the operator's end. It's very convoluted to get one national operator running onto another national operator's tracks, and unduly expensive for the train operator. I've been paying some attention to this from the business end. It really is NOT just the overnights disappearing.

Some countries cooperate better than others.

 

[fairviewroad]

As for people whining that it's "too hard" to do trainside checked baggage, Amtrak has *already done it*. It's obviously not too difficult...

http://www.on-track-on-line.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=47267

I never said it can't be done. I still think it's problematic - especially if there's unclaimed or late claimed luggage. If someone has to duck into a waiting room to use the bathroom, how long are they going to hold up the baggage handler and are they going to put it back on the train? Is it really going to turn into a bus-like removal of luggage?

Another complication on the EB route is the bifurcated nature of the train. There are two different baggage cars...one for the Seattle leg, one for the Portland leg.

That ratchets up the logistical challenge for trainside checked bags. That's not an issue on the Zephyr.

 

[Lonestar648]

True, but if Amtrak really wanted to make it happen, they could use one baggage car with the Portland route bags separated, then transferred in Spokane when the trains are separated or the reverse when connected as one train. They could even preload the bag checked in Chicago into the correct baggage car, thus reducing the number of transfer bags. It is definitely doable but Amtrak would need to want to make the multiple bag carrying passengers happy. Currently, on the LD trains how many bags are checked, how full is the baggage car, how much time is spent loading and unloading. What about having a temporary checked bag area in a coach so passengers could board at the small stops until the train arrives at a manned station where the temp area could be moved to the bag car.

 

[BCL]

True, but if Amtrak really wanted to make it happen, they could use one baggage car with the Portland route bags separated, then transferred in Spokane when the trains are separated or the reverse when connected as one train. They could even preload the bag checked in Chicago into the correct baggage car, thus reducing the number of transfer bags. It is definitely doable but Amtrak would need to want to make the multiple bag carrying passengers happy. Currently, on the LD trains how many bags are checked, how full is the baggage car, how much time is spent loading and unloading. What about having a temporary checked bag area in a coach so passengers could board at the small stops until the train arrives at a manned station where the temp area could be moved to the bag car.

I've seen the baggage car being unloaded before. I didn't pay too much attention the couple of times I've done EMY-SJC on the CS, since I was getting on. However, when I was waiting for it at EMY I saw the baggage handlers going through the entire baggage car looking for EMY tags.

I think it works pretty well now because there are only so many station stops where they need to unload luggage. However, I think the only LD train stop in the San Francisco Bay area left is RIC for the CZ. Since RIC was removed as a stop on the CS, that's 11 straight stations (from SAC to OXN) with a station and baggage service. I don't know how unusual this is on LD trains.

 

[fairviewroad]

saying that it's silly to be ordering new baggage cars while cutting checked baggage service at some stations doesn't pass the common sense test.

Depends on what "some stations" becomes. If it's just Winona and Grand Forks (to use two recent examples) then yes, I agree. If this becomes a system-wide drawdown of checked baggage services, then yes, it's legit to ask why new baggage cars are being built. At some point the baggage car is simply dead weight. How many bags per train, on average, would justify a baggage car? 20? 50? [i have no idea what the current average is]

 

[BCL]

saying that it's silly to be ordering new baggage cars while cutting checked baggage service at some stations doesn't pass the common sense test.

Depends on what "some stations" becomes. If it's just Winona and Grand Forks (to use two recent examples) then yes, I agree. If this becomes a system-wide drawdown of checked baggage services, then yes, it's legit to ask why new baggage cars are being built. At some point the baggage car is simply dead weight. How many bags per train, on average, would justify a baggage car? 20? 50? [i have no idea what the current average is]

Depends on the train. The last time I peeked into a baggage car there looked to be well over 100 pieces in there (including some bicycles) and that was after there had already been over a dozen stops at stations with baggage service.

Also - whether or not they're cutting baggage service doesn't mean they won't need new equipment. After a while the current equipment is reaching end of life for Amtrak's purposes. Maybe someone wants a baggage car as private varnish, but I'm guessing quite a few retired baggage cars will end up at railroad museums.

 

[dlagrua]

I don't disagree with you, but saying that it's silly to be ordering new baggage cars while cutting checked baggage service at some stations doesn't pass the common sense test.

 
It makes no more sense than cutting the food service to pieces and ordering new dining cars.

 

[trainviews]

Cross border rail in Europe is still the opposite of seamless on the operator's end. It's very convoluted to get one national operator running onto another national operator's tracks, and unduly expensive for the train operator. I've been paying some attention to this from the business end. It really is NOT just the overnights disappearing.

Some countries cooperate better than others.

You are to some extent right, but the trend is definately in the other direction. Due to EU legislation operators and infrastructure owners have been separated at least to some extent in all countries, exactly in order to make space for other operators on the net. It differs how efficient this has been, but in all countries it has become easier than before and the pressure is on to liberalize further.

This agenda has been more due to the benefit of freight though. Many passenger operations are still done as traditional shared operations (like the Maple Leaf in the US/Canada) - if nothing else to share the required subsidy as no country wants to subsidize service in another. Other places cross order services has been put out as separate tenders. In many countries the national train company no longer has a total monopoly.

Technically it's of course another story as crossborder trains need to have different ATC systems installed, need to be able to run several electricity standards etc. But this is nothing new and also here there's a push for standardizing, even if it's moving very slowly. But new systems have to be installed to common standards.

The reality is however that cross border passenger traffic has been growing rapidly. It's just not long distance trains. And like any other corridor train, they don't carry checked baggage.

 

[fairviewroad]

Also - whether or not they're cutting baggage service doesn't mean they won't need new equipment.

Of course it does. It's highly relevant. For example, if Amtrak ended checked baggage service entirely, then they certainly wouldn't need new baggage cars. They could simply discontinue use of the old ones.

So it's really just a matter of to what degree is Amtrak cutting baggage service. At present, it appears that Amtrak will continue to offer checked baggage at enough stations to merit new equipment. But the trend has definitely been to offer it at fewer locations and thus to fewer passengers. The question remains: What is the tipping point?

 

[OBS]

It is important to remember that baggage cars carry shipments for Amtrak express service as well as just baggage. This is a revenue generating service that does a surprising amount of business.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Plus any weapons and ammo have to be checked ( where avaailable) and carried in the locked baggage car per Congressional mandate!

 

[Ryan]

Also - whether or not they're cutting baggage service doesn't mean they won't need new equipment.

Of course it does. It's highly relevant. For example, if Amtrak ended checked baggage service entirely, then they certainly wouldn't need new baggage cars. They could simply discontinue use of the old ones.

So it's really just a matter of to what degree is Amtrak cutting baggage service. At present, it appears that Amtrak will continue to offer checked baggage at enough stations to merit new equipment. But the trend has definitely been to offer it at fewer locations and thus to fewer passengers. The question remains: What is the tipping point?

What might that tipping point be, and how close do you think we are to it?

I don't disagree with you, but saying that it's silly to be ordering new baggage cars while cutting checked baggage service at some stations doesn't pass the common sense test.

 It makes no more sense than cutting the food service to pieces and ordering new dining cars.

Define "cutting the food service to pieces".

 

[fairviewroad]

What might that tipping point be, and how close do you think we are to it?

I really don't know. As someone just pointed out, the baggage cars carry things other than checked bags...a fact that I had forgotten entirely. So perhaps

there could still be a need for baggage cars even if Amtrak no longer offered checked bags. At any rate, it sounds like the train has left the station, no

pun intended, since many of the baggage cars have already been built. I just hope that in 10 years, those "new" baggage cars won't become a political

talking point if Amtrak continues to slash baggage services to passengers.

 

[Bob Dylan]

The Texas Eagle route (#21/#22) CHI-SAS actually has More Stations with checked baggage than it did a few years ago!

When Austin and Temple added Checked baggage in the past couple of years , the SAS-CHI Route now has 12 Stations with Checked Baggage!

#21/#22 used to run with a Coach/Bag Car, but in the recent past a Regular Heritage Bag Car was added to the consist! Looking forward to seeing one of the Shiney New Viewliner II Bags on the Eagles!!

 

[neroden]

The reality is however that cross border passenger traffic has been growing rapidly. It's just not long distance trains. And like any other corridor train, they don't carry checked baggage.

OK, let me make this clearer. In Europe, the countries are so small, and the new high-speed train lines so fast, that on most routes, in order to get a train trip to a length where it's a reasonable overnight or "long distance" trip, you typically have to go through THREE countries or more. The hassle involved in coordinating these under current laws and practices is substantial, and the operators aren't doing it. Has nothing to do with demand.
On the routes where these services still exist, often operated by Russian Railways, the traditional amenities are still offered.

As the technical and legal obstacles to the longer runs go away, the traditional amenities (sleepers, checked baggage) will come back. Expect them to be present for any direct England-Portugal or England-Italy train if one ever gets going... it's largely a matter of runtime.

 

[trainviews]

The reality is however that cross border passenger traffic has been growing rapidly. It's just not long distance trains. And like any other corridor train, they don't carry checked baggage.

OK, let me make this clearer. In Europe, the countries are so small, and the new high-speed train lines so fast, that on most routes, in order to get a train trip to a length where it's a reasonable overnight or "long distance" trip, you typically have to go through THREE countries or more. The hassle involved in coordinating these under current laws and practices is substantial, and the operators aren't doing it. Has nothing to do with demand.
On the routes where these services still exist, often operated by Russian Railways, the traditional amenities are still offered.

As the technical and legal obstacles to the longer runs go away, the traditional amenities (sleepers, checked baggage) will come back. Expect them to be present for any direct England-Portugal or England-Italy train if one ever gets going... it's largely a matter of runtime.

How come that all the ones that have been there for decades are going away? City Night Line just cut half of their network last year - irrespective of the lines running through 2, 3 or 4 countries.

And how come noone has tried doing HSR sleepers? The network is there and a route like London-Marseille (2 countries) or London-Barcelona seems obvious (3 countries). It just doesn't happen even though international day trains are growing, also on quite long runs and through multiple countries.

The russian railways are the exception here from everyone else. Good that they are able to hold on, but it doesn't change the overall pattern. And I honestly don't think burocracy is the tipping point here, even though I don't doubt real problems exist.

If anything the problem is that there's no political will to pay the needed subsidies on long distance international trains. There's more bang for the buck in corridors and cross border integration where it can reach a decent volume.

 

[neroden]

Everything I've read from the industry magazines says that bureaucracy IS the tipping point regarding HSR sleeper services in Europe, contrary to your beliefs. I mean, they're always a niche service (you've got to have cities which are the right number of hours apart by train), but the niche has been squeezed out of existence by the international bureaucracy involved, which is apparently much worse than it was in the 19th century.

I could go through it in excruciating detail, but I don't feel like doing so. Suffice it to say that some open-access operators have tried, and thrown up their hands after a year or more of paperwork. Direct trains from London-Spain in particular seem to be a bureaucratic nightmare even for the *day* trains. And the HSR operators like to close their tracks at night for maintenance. One obstacle after another and eventually they give up.

CityNightLine: the problem they have is that staying strictly within Germany/Austria/Switzerland (which seem to cooperate fairly well) gives you daytime train trips which are mostly well under 8 hours, making sleepers uncompetitive... but crossing the border into the Netherlands or France is a hassle and a half, and *still* doesn't get you to the right length of trip for sleepers. (They've cancelled mostly cross-border services, if you look carefully.)

For the right length, you want to run from France to Eastern Europe, but Eastern Europe has allowed its rail system to decay and nobody wants to build trains which run high-speed in France and run on decrepit track in Poland. Or you want to run from northern Germany to Rome, but the tunnels under Switzerland aren't really ready for that, and the route over the mountains is too slow. And that's if there's enough demand -- and it's well-demonstrated that there's less travel between cities which don't speak the same native language.

By contrast, China, with a unified railway ministry, does run sleepers on its HSR routes where the trip is long enough.

Russian Railways, being another integrated operation in a large country, is already running sleepers domestically all over Russia, and can simply extend some of them to neighbors.

 

[Seaboard92]

One thing to remember about City Night Line is that it is owned by Deutsche Bahn so anything in Germany isn't a large stretch for them. And another thing to remember some of these night trains are also running Auto Racks on the end as an Auto Train. Some other EN trains from ÖBB have auto racks as well.

 

[mlhughes0522]

I don't think it will hurt ridership to do that at this station. Good opinion they can do here at this station is

To put in station attendant train that person to help like with information, making reservation by phone / kiosk.

Station hours 9-11a / 6:30-8:30p daily more hours to come if they add another train CHI-MSP

 

[TraneMan]

Talking to one of the EB crew member has hear a rumor that they may change this and keep WIN as a staffed station.

 

[lyke99]

Talking to one of the EB crew member has hear a rumor that they may change this and keep WIN as a staffed station.

That would be great. Lots of college students in Winona - many from the greater Chicago area and use the train to get back and forth.