Winter Storm 2024 cancellations

[Charles785]

This may have been addressed before but back in the day of the golden age of private rail passenger travel - Santa Fe, Great Northern, Chicago Burlington & Quincy, New York Central, Missouri Pacific, Rock Island, etc., did weather similar to what we're having now result in cancellations in most cases?

 

[xzperu42]

On a VIA Canadian trip in February 2018, we were stopped for several hours because a rail had snapped due to the extreme cold. I don't remember exactly how long, but it was at least several hours. Then everything got backed up and we arrived in Toronto a day late.

Everything was working, including the heat and toilets, and the dining car didn't run out of food.

The Canadian #1 just pulled into Wainwright, Alberta about 3 hours late. Currently -41 (wind chill -57) I'm taking it next week on the 21st to Vancouver... so I have more than a passing interest!

 

[Aarem]

So far.there is no announcement with regard to tomorrow's CZ. Hopefully, the train can run (EB).

 

[lordsigma]

They don't build them like they used to. I also wonder if reduced staffing makes it harder to deal with major delays so it's just safer to cancel. I would imagine VIA rail has insulated their cars more than Amtrak and can handle lower temps.

The Canadian also only runs twice a week and has a large amount of padding in their four day schedule that can absorb the hit from broken rail delays and other common issues that occur in this kind of weather. From some reports elsewhere BNSF has basically thrown in the tower east of Spokane. Basically everything is tying down. If one looks at 7/27 that arrived in Seattle and Portland today its basically the ultimate example of what can happen - and its not all about Siemens ALC42s even though that's what many people like to cite. 7 hours late, broken rails, broken down freight train, etc. And this was before the peak of the cold snap. The bottom line is the railroad can fall apart in deep freeze temperatures and quite often it does - as it did today.

Don't get me wrong some of the cancellations have been head scratchers - but not sure the Builder one is.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

This may have been addressed before but back in the day of the golden age of private rail passenger travel - Santa Fe, Great Northern, Chicago Burlington & Quincy, New York Central, Missouri Pacific, Rock Island, etc., did weather similar to what we're having now result in cancellations in most cases?

Do you mean back in the days when our parents had to walk 10 miles in a blizzard to get to school? Times do change.

 

[lordsigma]

This may have been addressed before but back in the day of the golden age of private rail passenger travel - Santa Fe, Great Northern, Chicago Burlington & Quincy, New York Central, Missouri Pacific, Rock Island, etc., did weather similar to what we're having now result in cancellations in most cases?

Probably not. But that's not just because of trigger happy Amtrak management. There's a lot of factors where times have changed since those days besides a perhaps more trigger happy management when it comes to cancellation. For one the railroads do not have the human and physical resources they once did to rescue a train in need at any time and at any place and to keep the railroad running at 100% in any condition no matter what. Why? Because railroads are controlled by investors and, well, for better or worse investors want a return on their investment and want a more efficient railroad which means tighter operations. Sometimes it's more profitable to stop moving than to pay for all these resources to keep things moving NO MATTER WHAT. So if an Amtrak train gets stuck out there in -40 due to an engine failure, or a broken rail, or a broken down freight or whatever it is they're going to be stuck there for a lot longer than they would have back then because its going to take longer for that tighter operation to respond. Another factor is continuously welded rail. While it does have many benefits it is more prone to problems at extreme temperatures than traditional rail particularly if it's not maintained meticulously (which see the previous point on railroads cutting back on resources to maintain operational efficiency), Amtrak maintains its tracks on the NEC to a pretty high standard comparatively, but these freight railroads certainly do not - they basically do the minimum for maintaining safe operations and maintaining the class of track. So one can expect rail breakage in these types of conditions. The Builder derailment in Joplin certainly called into question track maintenance standards and whether the current minimum standard is good enough. And don't think that incident and the questions raised by the NTSB about current maintenance standards can't factor in or give pause when considering whether to operate a passenger train in the more extreme temps when everyone basically knows the minimum standard is what is being done We also are more safety minded and in a somewhat related issue we are more litigious these days. So companies are going to be less prone to take risks we might have taken back in the golden age. This isn't meant to excuse Amtrak across the board - there may be instances where they are trigger happy or instances where they could maybe run a stub train or whatnot to maintain some service. But it's important to remember times do change and in more ways than one.

 

[Jsandrews1]

There seems to be a higher rate of cancellations as of the past several months, it is sad when they cancel 2 or 3 days on a row. I get derailments or such, but Amtrak is trying to drum up support, yet they cancel and say no other options.
It seems they would be more focused on saving the trip and helping the customers instead of parking the sets and saying you’re on your own!

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Is there an easy way to track when Amtrak cancels because of the host RR telling them to or shutting down? Like a spreadsheet or website that correlates them at a glance (not volunteering, don't have the webskills...)?

 

[lordsigma]

Is there an easy way to track when Amtrak cancels because of the host RR telling them to or shutting down? Like a spreadsheet or website that correlates them at a glance (not volunteering, don't have the webskills...)?

Not really. They don’t usually divulge this. There isn’t really any way to know if BNSF told them not to run for instance. It definitely happens but there’s no way to know.

 

[fdaley]

This may have been addressed before but back in the day of the golden age of private rail passenger travel - Santa Fe, Great Northern, Chicago Burlington & Quincy, New York Central, Missouri Pacific, Rock Island, etc., did weather similar to what we're having now result in cancellations in most cases?

In those days the trains pretty much ran no matter what, and the railroads trumpeted their all-weather reliability in advertising as an advantage over planes and cars: "Your trip's a go, weather or no." Of course, they did have the occasional calamity, such as the UP/SP City of San Francisco becoming stranded for days in the deep snow of the Sierras, I think in 1952.

But it was a different era, when the railroads spent heavily on the equipment and manpower needed to keep trains rolling in all conditions. And the private railroads then had tons more passengers who were relying on them for basic transportation, and lots more equipment and crews that could be dispatched to rescue a train that got into trouble. Also, the railroads were directly responsible for these trains, rather than current situation in which Amtrak is a tenant that has to rely mainly on freight carriers and hope that they can provide safe passage in poor conditions. So I can understand the need to proceed with more caution today for the sake of keeping everyone safe.

 

[west point]

The winter cancellations have a major problem with super cold broken rail incidents. Back in legacy days there was very few miles of welded rail. So the joints of stick rail could prevent most broken rails. As well, MOW crews were usually close to a break and could respond quickly. Now long strings of welded rail change the metric.

Have to wonder if the class 1s would go to the extra expense of rail anchors on each cross tie? Am I wrong but isn't most of the Amtrak NEC tracks have anchors every cross tie? Another expensive method might be for the Class 1s to use the India RR method of using a variation of miter rails? Both these methods still require much better maintenance of the ballast to maintain rail integrity to prevent rail breaks and heat related rail kinks. The EB derailment was partially linked to substandard ballast maintenance.

 

[Aarem]

they canceled #5 from Chicago to Deniver today at 2:15 Central. Just shortly after the train was supposed to depart. No news on #6 for tomorrow. I am on the train that left today from EMY to CHI. Don't they have to cancel #6 so that the train stock don't all end up in one place.

 

[Aarem]

they just canceld #6 past Denver.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

BNSF has Nebraska blocked with tied down freights that can't release their brakes is what I've recently read.

 

[Aarem]

of course this is amtrak, so no mention of what to do for passengers beyond Denver.

 

[MARC Rider]

In comparison with the Amtrak cancellations, I wonder about the status of the highways paralleling the Empire Builder route, specifically US 2 and Interstate 90. I remember spending some time on business trips to Denver during various winters past and hearing radio announcements about Vail Pass on I-70 being closed during heavy snowstorms. I even remember some of our major snowstorms right here in the Mid-Atlantic, when the governor of Maryland closed all of the highways for a day or two so that the plows could clear the roads. (Of course, this was only of academic interest to me, as Baltimore City took several days to get a snowplow down our side street, so I was stuck in the house whether the roads were open or not.)

 

[Aarem]

BNSF has Nebraska blocked with tied down freights that can't release their brakes is what I've recently read.

ah, makes sense.

 

[west point]

Why should Amtrak run almost empty trains? The loss of "all weather passengers" is well noted. Governments are quick now to close roads to all but very essential traffic. Even RR crews in many places are not considered essential. The state of Colorado closed all roads going east out of Denver just after Christmas. Fortunately, Amtrak routes were not affected.

 

[Charles785]

Thanks for your detailed comments, Lordsigna.

I did find this Santa Fe ad.



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[jpakala]

I remember when there were no Interstates, no jets, most cars had two flat glass plates for windshields and I don't recall trains (my father took from Pittsburgh to NYC or sometimes Detroit, St. Louis, etc.) being cancelled. I wonder how much cancellation occurs in Scandinavia and Russia today, owing to wintry weather, and how much occurs in much hotter places than North America owing to the effects on rails, which have been a problem even in MT and from the U.S. to Montreal.

 

[Willbridge]

I remember when there were no Interstates, no jets, most cars had two flat glass plates for windshields and I don't recall trains (my father took from Pittsburgh to NYC or sometimes Detroit, St. Louis, etc.) being cancelled. I wonder how much cancellation occurs in Scandinavia and Russia today, owing to wintry weather, and how much occurs in much hotter places than North America owing to the effects on rails, which have been a problem even in MT and from the U.S. to Montreal.

Ironic you mention Russia, as American railroaders who were sent there in WW1 to teach Russians how to operate in remote, icy areas were mainly from the Great Northern. In fact when the last U.S. troops left Vladivostok, they sailed on the Hill lines' S.S. Great Northern. The traditional Russian asset has been lots of labor to keep lines open.

There and here, a lot depends on maintenance. During my years with Edmonton's LRT (1978-1984) I only recall having had one cold weather-related disruption and service was just short-turned for that. We had a few days down to 40 below. Denver has disruptions, but it's usually switch problems and maintenance people don't have far to go to clear up problems. Portland LRT is completely shut down, partly because of trees falling on the line and icy rails.

December, 1977; testing the first LRV at -30 degrees Celsius.

 

[lordsigma]

Thanks for your detailed comments, Lordsigna.

I did find this Santa Fe ad.



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Sadly the Santa Fe is long gone. BNSF is hardly the Santa Fe depicted in this ad and you won't see an ad like this from Amtrak either. While BNSF has not embraced PSR practices as comprehensively as some of the roads and has not adopted PSR as an operating doctrine, they have still largely followed the industry's direction in perhaps a more cautious manner and adopted some PSR like practices in a more limited manner and made some adjustments some of their employees have referred to it as "PSR-lite" including running longer monster trains. I will give BNSF credit for being less antagonistic and obstructive towards Amtrak and passenger rail as other carriers like Union Pacific and CN - they very well may be the best US carrier. But unfortunately that hasn't prevented them from at least sampling some of the PSR drug.

But some of this is just unavoidable with the US economics and values of today. Railroads are hardly the only industry under the thumb of Wall Street and their often times fixation on squeezing companies for efficiencies to juice up short term gains. That's not going to change without a major change in attitude and values by our society in general.

 

[Eric in East County]

George Stewart’s 1941 novel “Storm” provides a pretty good account of what all was involved to ensure that a crack Chicago to San Francisco streamliner wouldn’t be delayed because of a snowstorm in the mountains.

 

[fdaley]

There is an element of culture and expectations here. As others have noted, you almost never see VIA Rail cancel its trains because of severe cold or snow. In a country where arctic cold is so common in many places (VIA runs to Churchill, for god's sake), there is an expectation that CN and VIA will keep the trains moving through these conditions, and both organizations prepare for it. I have been on the Canadian in February when the outdoor temperature never went above minus 20 F for the whole distance from Edmonton through Winnipeg, and dropped to near minus 40 at night, and it was still wonderfully cozy inside, although on one trip we were delayed six hours in Saskatchewan after a CN freight broke apart on the single track ahead.

And I can recall how, in the funding debates of the '80s and '90s, people from Montana and North Dakota described how the Empire Builder, even if it ran late, would still get them through in winter weather when nothing else was moving. But I'm not sure how much people in most of the U.S. expect that today; there seems to be much broader acceptance of the idea that when bad weather hits, you stay where you are and wait it out.

I would love to see Amtrak have the bragging rights of being the mode that delivers you to your destination when planes are grounded and cars are stuck. But if the host railroads can't provide that and maybe don't even aspire to it anymore, it's probably better to cancel than to wind up with a trainload of people stuck somewhere for 12 hours or more, which becomes a PR nightmare as well as a potential hazard for those on board.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

I remember when there were no Interstates, no jets, most cars had two flat glass plates for windshields and I don't recall trains (my father took from Pittsburgh to NYC or sometimes Detroit, St. Louis, etc.) being cancelled. I wonder how much cancellation occurs in Scandinavia and Russia today, owing to wintry weather, and how much occurs in much hotter places than North America owing to the effects on rails, which have been a problem even in MT and from the U.S. to Montreal.

Can't speak for Russia, but essentially very little in Scandinavia. However, their weather is cold, not 'severe' in the sense of varying like it does in the Midwest. Right now Chicago is colder than small cities near the arctic circle, yet we were well above freezing two days ago. The changeability/variability of the temperatures is what does a lot of damage here, aka the freeze-thaw cycle whereas in the far north, it's generally below freezing for several months (though that line is shifting north).