Without additional funding, how can Amtrak improve the LD trains?

[railiner]

I definitely agree there are some amazing Amtrak attendants and it has been getting better over the course of my life. That being said VIA Rail Canada has created a corporate culture and service culture that is vastly superior. I actually talked with one of their trainers when I was in VCVR last time I was transiting the station and I think I've figured out why they are much better at it. They drill into their attendants that for many people the trip is a "Once in a Lifetime" experience so that whatever actions the crew takes are going to be remembered for all time. They also drill the fact that people are traveling for all sorts of different reasons honeymoons, retirement, medical appointments, funerals, graduations, and many others. Included in that is that you the employee don't always know the back story why someone is traveling so you should treat them with dignity and respect. Being mindful of any circumstances.

A good read is to read the VIA Rail Service Standards Manual it is online in the public domain and it is fascinating.




The best place to look at to determine soft product amenities and their importance is the most competitive sleeping car market in the world. Moscow to Saint Petersburg in Russia. Between the two cities are nine overnight trains by three operators.

Tverskoy Express operates the Metropolis with one brief stop in Tver. It looks like the Southern Pacific Daylight.

Grand Express operates the Grand Express and markets itself as the only luxury train on the market. Nonstop service.

Of those the largest operator is Russian Railways who operates 2 locals, and 5 premium trains. Even in the public operator there is a distinct market segmentation between the various trains. You have the popular double decker train, then you have the "Express" which was originally the second section of the premier train the Red Arrow. Both the Express (Think MoPac Jenks Blue) and the Red Arrow wear their own special liveries (Red and Gold). Both of these include a VIP Sleeping car while the double deckers don't.

Of note the Red Arrow also is the original Firmney (premium) train in the Russian system and since the 1960s the song "Hymn to Our City" plays as the train departs its end points on the loudspeaker of the station.

Due to the fact it is such a competitive market all three operators on the premium trains (RZD on the Express and Red Arrow) offer world class amenities we could only dream about on Amtrak.

Grand Express amenities
-Bathrobe
-Pair of Slippers
-Newspaper
-Travel kit with toothbrush and other vanity items
-hot breakfast, snacks, and soft drinks

Class dependent
-free transfer to any point in the city by a private driver.

RZD Red Arrow
-Bathrobe
-Slippers
-Newspaper
-Travel Kit
-Hot Breakfast
-Chocolate Bar (with train on it)
-soft drinks

I can't find much info on the Metropolis but from what I can tell they equal both of the other trains mentioned.

On all of the items that are provided for the passengers on those trains each item comes complete with the branding logo of the provider you are traveling with so on the Red Arrow it is the RZD logo.

So if Amtrak were to do this you would see the Amtrak logo on the bathrobe, slippers, travel kit, and the chocolate bar. So to prove that this is relatively inexpensive when you are buying in bulk I priced out what it would cost online to order customized items. Keep in mind on a standard night when there is daily service Amtrak originates the following daily based on the consist listing on this forum for each route.

Superliner
-14 Roomettes
-5 Bedrooms
-1 Family
-1 H Room
-8 TransDorm Roomettes

Viewliner
-2 Bedrooms
-1 H Room
-12 Roomettes

Rooms Originated Per Day by Train
Viewliner Trains
Cres: 8 Bedrooms, 4 H Room, 48 Roomettes
LSL: 12 Bedrooms, 6 H Room, 72 Roomettes
CARD: 4 Bedrroms, 2 H Room, 24 Roomettes
SS: 8 Bedrooms, 4 H Room, 48 Roomettes
SM: 12 Bedrooms, 6 H Room, 72 Roomettes

Superliner Trains
SL: 44 Roomettes, 10 Bedrooms, 2 Family, 2 H Room
SWC: 72 Roomettes, 20 Bedrooms, 4 Family, 4 H Room
CZ: 100 Roomettes, 30 Bedrooms, 6 Family, 6 H Room
EB: 100 Roomettes, 30 Bedrooms, 6 Family, 6 H Room
CS: 100 Roomettes, 30 Bedrooms, 6 Family, 6 H Room
TE: 44 Roomettes, 10 Bedrooms, 2 Family, 2 H Room
CL: 72 Roomettes, 20 Bedrooms, 4 Family, 4 H Room
AT: 128 Roomettes, 80 Bedrooms, 12 Family, 12 H Room
CONO:44 Roomettes, 10 Bedrooms, 2 Family, 2 H Room

Rooms Originated by Type
-Viewliner Roomettes: 264
-Viewliner Bedrooms: 44
-Viewliner H Bedrooms: 22
-Superliner Roomettes: 704
-Superliner Bedrooms: 240
-Superliner Family Bedrooms: 44
-Superliner H Bedrooms: 44
-Total: 1,362
-Monthly Total (31 Days): 42,222:
-Yearly Total: 497,130



So if we are going to use the Grand Express amenities because they are the easiest to get an accurate list on here are the costs. For prices I am using allibaba which is an internet wholesaler for items coming out of China unless otherwise noted.

-Slippers: $1.96 Per Pair when order Quantities exceed 1,000 units.
-Bathrobes: $8.33 Per Robe when order quantities exceed 1,000 units.
-Travel Kit: $1.95 when order quantities exceed 1,000 units.($1.00 Per Bag when order exceeds 1,000 units, $0.30 for Shampoo, Conditioner, and Body Wash when order exceeds 5,000 units, $0.35 for Toothbrushes when over 500 units, $.10 for toothpaste containers for units greater than 1,000, $.20 for toothpaste in quantities great than 1,000.)
-Chocolate Bar: $0.58 ($0.08 per package when quantity exceeds 5,000, $0.50 for the chocolate (Number pulled out of my head based on a .99 cent chocolate and the estimated markup)
-Newspapers: $3.00 per paper based on the national average. Granted not everyone wants a newspaper so Amtrak could come up with an algorithm to determine exactly how many newspapers they need on each train.

Total Cost per passenger (Excluding food service because that is a much harder metric to determine, however I could determine it if probed): $15.82.

It isn't overly expensive to provide a first class product that truly is first class when you originate the number of rooms that Amtrak does annually. It would be something worth looking into in my honest opinion.

Now while I couldn't tell you exactly how much business these added extras would add, but the value is not in the cost but in the good first impression it adds. Our fellow member NSC1109 and I agree a lot when it comes to having a unified brand. And by placing your logo on everything you have a unified branded product, that offers decent quality items, and provides a good first impression.

For a private car owner the amenities I would propose would be significantly higher because they don't have the economies of scale that Amtrak has. Amtrak can put out an order for every year for probably 750,000 of these items and get the margins fairly small. While it costs money lets not forget the old adage it costs money to make money.

Sounds like you are a bit 'obsessed' with amenity details... If so, you would have loved dining in PRR's Broadway Limited twin unit diner....even the butter pats had keystones molded in.....

 

[Trogdor]

News flash: They don't. Very close, but no.

Fine. Three seats off. They can sell to the lower capacity and use the extra three seats as overflow. Or they can only assign up to a certain point, and leave the rest unassigned. They already (well, pre-COVID) sold coach to about 103% of planned capacity anyway, assuming a certain level of no-shows. Business class and sleepers were always capped at the exact capacity of the car.

There's also other weird things like when they swap in Superliners on the Pere Marquette at Thanksgiving, etc.

Those consist changes are planned in advance. The reservation system likewise has adjusted capacity for the planned holiday consist changes.

Amtrak simply doesn't have that much equipment to provide the consistency you think it can.

They absolutely can provide that consistency. There’s a consist book that gets updated seasonally that details the number and type of cars on each train, and what the next train is that it turns to when it arrives at its destination. Often a given consist will stay solid (except for the engines) for weeks at a time. Years ago there was a bit more randomness when there were several more fleet configurations, but since then most of those cars have either been retired or refitted.

The problem then becomes enforcing the issue with passengers used to unassigned seating.

Well, we have real-life experience now on the NEC, both Acela and regular regional, with assigning seats on routes that used to be open seating. So, I don’t really see it as a big deal. Folks will adjust. Then in a few years, most passengers will forget that there ever was open seating.

 

[me_little_me]

Another way to look at is this: If the upgraded service leads to the sale of one additional low-bucket bedroom or one higher-bucket roomette per departure on the Lake Shore, for example, that likely would generate enough revenue to cover the cost of the amenity package for everyone on that train.

Which brings us back to the problem with Amtrak management - when you look to cut costs instead of generating revenue, everyone loses.

 

[jloewen]

• Courtesy does not cost anything
• Politeness does not cost anything
• They are already on the train - being available to the passengers does not cost anything extra
• Being patient does not cost anything

Amen to the four points above. -- Jim Loewen

 

[jruff001]

Great job of giving us some real numbers for the sake of discussion. If I am reading them correctly, the cost to provide this amenity package systemwide for every room would be 497,130 (the number of sleeper spaces annually) x $15.82 (the cost per passenger), or about $7.8 million a year if every room were fully occupied? Of course, the bathrobes and other items can be saved if the train isn't full, so the actual cost might be considerably less given that some rooms are empty or not fully occupied.

Don't forget to add in the costs of employee pilferage, which unfortunately would be significant (plus the costs of getting the supplies to the train).

Also some of those prices (especially bathrobe, slippers and travel / amenity kits) sound like they would be pretty low-end in terms of quality.

 

[tricia]

I might be in the minority here (perhaps a minority of one ), but I wouldn't want to see Amtrak moving in the direction of handing customers even more disposable crap.

There are better ways to make customers feel welcome. Some of them (some noted above in this thread, including more customer-friendly staff) don't add any cost. Others (like the complimentary drink now offered sleeping car passengers) don't cost much and don't add whole new categories of trash to be landfilled.

And some amenities (shampoo, toothpaste, etc) might be better handled by a note to passengers similar to what some hotels offer: Forgot something? Ask your SCA if you need a complimentary bottle/tube of X, Y, or Z.

 

[fdaley]

I might be in the minority here (perhaps a minority of one ), but I wouldn't want to see Amtrak moving in the direction of handing customers even more disposable crap.

There are better ways to make customers feel welcome. Some of them (some noted above in this thread, including more customer-friendly staff) don't add any cost. Others (like the complimentary drink now offered sleeping car passengers) don't cost much and don't add whole new categories of trash to be landfilled.

And some amenities (shampoo, toothpaste, etc) might be better handled by a note to passengers similar to what some hotels offer: Forgot something? Ask your SCA if you need a complimentary bottle/tube of X, Y, or Z.

You do have a point there, especially if the items are of poor quality. Better to do it well if they're going to try it. When Amtrak first switched to "contemporary dining" on the Lake Shore in June of '18, they started giving everyone in the sleepers a toiletry kit with soap, shampoo, etc. I don't think it lasted very long, and it seemed like a gesture of appeasement for customers who were likely to be put off by the huge downgrade in food service. But the stuff in the toiletry kit seemed of fairly good quality and nicely packaged, so we did take ours, added it to our travel kits and used it on subsequent travels. Of course, the loss of dining service, plus various problems with our bedroom, were what we remembered most about that trip. (The shower flooded the carpet in the room, and the headboard above the sofa, which runs the length of the room, kept falling off the wall onto our heads -- and onto the bed at night.)

The food service, to me, is still the elephant in the room. Even if you give every sleeper passenger a nice robe and slippers and toiletry kit to take home, if the meal service is embarrassingly bad, it's the latter that's going to leave the lasting impression.

So before we get to the amenity kits, fix the food problem, and figure out a better way to report defects/problems in sleeper rooms so they don't get sent out on the next run without getting repaired. If you're paying $700 a night for a bedroom for two, you shouldn't be encountering leaky/broken shower doors, clogged sink drains, burned-out light bulbs, broken seating and in-room controls that don't work -- all of which I've seen on trips in the past 3-4 years.

 

[Nick Farr]

Fine. Three seats off. They can sell to the lower capacity and use the extra three seats as overflow. Or they can only assign up to a certain point, and leave the rest unassigned. They already (well, pre-COVID) sold coach to about 103% of planned capacity anyway, assuming a certain level of no-shows. Business class and sleepers were always capped at the exact capacity of the car.

The point you're missing here is that outside of the NEC, the equipment isn't as standardized as you'd think. I believe we're both in agreement that they need to standardize it. You can't fix these problems with the computer, the real world doesn't function like Minecraft.

Further, if you offer customers a seat facing one way, and it happens to be facing another way on that particular car, you're in for a lot of problems. Setting high expectations and not delivering is worse than offering nothing.

The fix for this is actually standardizing the equipment. Second, improving communications between the yard and the reservations system. Third, upgrading all the systems so that the customer preference is preserved and adjusted for as equipment changes. (Like what the airlines do.)

Until all those things happen, you're just setting people up for disappointment.

Most of this has already happened on the NEC.

They absolutely can provide that consistency. There’s a consist book that gets updated seasonally that details the number and type of cars on each train, and what the next train is that it turns to when it arrives at its destination. Often a given consist will stay solid (except for the engines) for weeks at a time. Years ago there was a bit more randomness when there were several more fleet configurations, but since then most of those cars have either been retired or refitted.

Great, but you're still missing the fact that the yard needs to talk to the reservations system in the event of a change.

You're also making HUGE assumptions about this very fact. The yard has to deal with what the reservations system tells them to do, as far as I know the information does not flow back the other way.

The one thing airlines have to their advantage is that they have a centralized system that monitors all of these things and (generally) keeps everyone informed.

So, I don’t really see it as a big deal. Folks will adjust.

Really underselling the difficult things the conductors have to deal with goes to show how little you actually know/care about the situation.

 

[Qapla]

The one thing airlines have to their advantage is that they have a centralized system that monitors all of these things and (generally) keeps everyone informed.

Another thing the airlines don't have to deal with is the "consist" - a plane does not get reconfigured during booking, taxiing and/or flight - like a train can and does.

This comes to part of the root problem ... there is already more than enough "airline" people trying to run/dictate/change how a rail service is operating and attempting to run it the same way airlines are run - it seems it should be obvious by now that approach does not work

 

[MARC Rider]

I definitely agree there are some amazing Amtrak attendants and it has been getting better over the course of my life. That being said VIA Rail Canada has created a corporate culture and service culture that is vastly superior. I actually talked with one of their trainers when I was in VCVR last time I was transiting the station and I think I've figured out why they are much better at it. They drill into their attendants that for many people the trip is a "Once in a Lifetime" experience so that whatever actions the crew takes are going to be remembered for all time. They also drill the fact that people are traveling for all sorts of different reasons honeymoons, retirement, medical appointments, funerals, graduations, and many others. Included in that is that you the employee don't always know the back story why someone is traveling so you should treat them with dignity and respect. Being mindful of any circumstances.

A good read is to read the VIA Rail Service Standards Manual it is online in the public domain and it is fascinating.




The best place to look at to determine soft product amenities and their importance is the most competitive sleeping car market in the world. Moscow to Saint Petersburg in Russia. Between the two cities are nine overnight trains by three operators.

Tverskoy Express operates the Metropolis with one brief stop in Tver. It looks like the Southern Pacific Daylight.

Grand Express operates the Grand Express and markets itself as the only luxury train on the market. Nonstop service.

Of those the largest operator is Russian Railways who operates 2 locals, and 5 premium trains. Even in the public operator there is a distinct market segmentation between the various trains. You have the popular double decker train, then you have the "Express" which was originally the second section of the premier train the Red Arrow. Both the Express (Think MoPac Jenks Blue) and the Red Arrow wear their own special liveries (Red and Gold). Both of these include a VIP Sleeping car while the double deckers don't.

Of note the Red Arrow also is the original Firmney (premium) train in the Russian system and since the 1960s the song "Hymn to Our City" plays as the train departs its end points on the loudspeaker of the station.

Due to the fact it is such a competitive market all three operators on the premium trains (RZD on the Express and Red Arrow) offer world class amenities we could only dream about on Amtrak.

Grand Express amenities
-Bathrobe
-Pair of Slippers
-Newspaper
-Travel kit with toothbrush and other vanity items
-hot breakfast, snacks, and soft drinks

Class dependent
-free transfer to any point in the city by a private driver.

RZD Red Arrow
-Bathrobe
-Slippers
-Newspaper
-Travel Kit
-Hot Breakfast
-Chocolate Bar (with train on it)
-soft drinks

I can't find much info on the Metropolis but from what I can tell they equal both of the other trains mentioned.

On all of the items that are provided for the passengers on those trains each item comes complete with the branding logo of the provider you are traveling with so on the Red Arrow it is the RZD logo.

So if Amtrak were to do this you would see the Amtrak logo on the bathrobe, slippers, travel kit, and the chocolate bar. So to prove that this is relatively inexpensive when you are buying in bulk I priced out what it would cost online to order customized items. Keep in mind on a standard night when there is daily service Amtrak originates the following daily based on the consist listing on this forum for each route.

Superliner
-14 Roomettes
-5 Bedrooms
-1 Family
-1 H Room
-8 TransDorm Roomettes

Viewliner
-2 Bedrooms
-1 H Room
-12 Roomettes

Rooms Originated Per Day by Train
Viewliner Trains
Cres: 8 Bedrooms, 4 H Room, 48 Roomettes
LSL: 12 Bedrooms, 6 H Room, 72 Roomettes
CARD: 4 Bedrroms, 2 H Room, 24 Roomettes
SS: 8 Bedrooms, 4 H Room, 48 Roomettes
SM: 12 Bedrooms, 6 H Room, 72 Roomettes

Superliner Trains
SL: 44 Roomettes, 10 Bedrooms, 2 Family, 2 H Room
SWC: 72 Roomettes, 20 Bedrooms, 4 Family, 4 H Room
CZ: 100 Roomettes, 30 Bedrooms, 6 Family, 6 H Room
EB: 100 Roomettes, 30 Bedrooms, 6 Family, 6 H Room
CS: 100 Roomettes, 30 Bedrooms, 6 Family, 6 H Room
TE: 44 Roomettes, 10 Bedrooms, 2 Family, 2 H Room
CL: 72 Roomettes, 20 Bedrooms, 4 Family, 4 H Room
AT: 128 Roomettes, 80 Bedrooms, 12 Family, 12 H Room
CONO:44 Roomettes, 10 Bedrooms, 2 Family, 2 H Room

Rooms Originated by Type
-Viewliner Roomettes: 264
-Viewliner Bedrooms: 44
-Viewliner H Bedrooms: 22
-Superliner Roomettes: 704
-Superliner Bedrooms: 240
-Superliner Family Bedrooms: 44
-Superliner H Bedrooms: 44
-Total: 1,362
-Monthly Total (31 Days): 42,222:
-Yearly Total: 497,130



So if we are going to use the Grand Express amenities because they are the easiest to get an accurate list on here are the costs. For prices I am using allibaba which is an internet wholesaler for items coming out of China unless otherwise noted.

-Slippers: $1.96 Per Pair when order Quantities exceed 1,000 units.
-Bathrobes: $8.33 Per Robe when order quantities exceed 1,000 units.
-Travel Kit: $1.95 when order quantities exceed 1,000 units.($1.00 Per Bag when order exceeds 1,000 units, $0.30 for Shampoo, Conditioner, and Body Wash when order exceeds 5,000 units, $0.35 for Toothbrushes when over 500 units, $.10 for toothpaste containers for units greater than 1,000, $.20 for toothpaste in quantities great than 1,000.)
-Chocolate Bar: $0.58 ($0.08 per package when quantity exceeds 5,000, $0.50 for the chocolate (Number pulled out of my head based on a .99 cent chocolate and the estimated markup)
-Newspapers: $3.00 per paper based on the national average. Granted not everyone wants a newspaper so Amtrak could come up with an algorithm to determine exactly how many newspapers they need on each train.

Total Cost per passenger (Excluding food service because that is a much harder metric to determine, however I could determine it if probed): $15.82.

It isn't overly expensive to provide a first class product that truly is first class when you originate the number of rooms that Amtrak does annually. It would be something worth looking into in my honest opinion.

Now while I couldn't tell you exactly how much business these added extras would add, but the value is not in the cost but in the good first impression it adds. Our fellow member NSC1109 and I agree a lot when it comes to having a unified brand. And by placing your logo on everything you have a unified branded product, that offers decent quality items, and provides a good first impression.

For a private car owner the amenities I would propose would be significantly higher because they don't have the economies of scale that Amtrak has. Amtrak can put out an order for every year for probably 750,000 of these items and get the margins fairly small. While it costs money lets not forget the old adage it costs money to make money.

One thing you would also have to keep in mind when costing this sort of thing is extra labor costs involved in ordering, storing, and distributing all of these amenities. I don't know what Amtrak's procurement policies are like, hopefully they're not as complicated as the government, but you still need a process to review multiple vendors and decide which provides the best value and and be assured that the selection is fair, and nobody's skimming of money anywhere. Then, after the stuff is ordered, it needs to be sent to where it can be stored and loaded on to trains. The stuff would probably need to be stored at all of the termini of trains with sleepers, so at each of those locations, someone would need to spend time keeping track of it. It might not required a full time person at each terminus, but it's still work that has to be done by somebody. Then the stuff has to be brought out to the sleepers before each departure in quantities that would include provision for passengers boarding at intermediate stations. Who's going to do that? The SCAs? Are they going to authorize overtime for them to do it? Somebody's going to have to do it. Providing these extras will require additional FTE or some sort, and that needs to be calculated before one can really talk about how expensive they are. If they don't get the extra FTE, then the current work force will have to not do something else if they're expected to dole out amenities. And, to be quite frank, the experience of the airlines has shown that most customers don't really care about these extras; they are riding a transportation service to travel somewhere.

 

[MARC Rider]

Well, we have real-life experience now on the NEC, both Acela and regular regional, with assigning seats on routes that used to be open seating. So, I don’t really see it as a big deal. Folks will adjust. Then in a few years, most passengers will forget that there ever was open seating.

Let's also not forget that until about 2004 or so (not that long ago), the Northeast Regionals not only had open seating, the trains were unreserved.

 

[Trogdor]

The point you're missing here is that outside of the NEC, the equipment isn't as standardized as you'd think. I believe we're both in agreement that they need to standardize it. You can't fix these problems with the computer, the real world doesn't function like Minecraft.

The point you're missing is I'm well aware of how the operation works. I worked with the consist planners on a couple of projects when I was there. The equipment is plenty standardized. Most of the non-standard equipment was retired or reconfigured in the mid 2000s or early 2010s.

My raw memory was off about Horizons and Amfleet Is having the same coach capacity (a difference of 3), but the solution to that is to hold a few seats back from pre-assignment, which is something I would expect them to do anyway since many of the corridor trains offer multi-ride tickets which wouldn't have seat assignments to begin with.

As of right now, the Hiawatha operates with Amfleets or Horizons. The St. Louis trains operate with Amfleets or Horizons. The Quincy trains operate with Amfleets or Horizons. The Carbondale trains operate with Amfleets or Horizons. The Pontiac trains operate with Amfleets or Horizons. The Port Huron train operates with Amfleets or Horizons. I haven't paid attention to what the Pere Marquette is running lately, but that's the only one that has regularly run with Superliners in recent years, and the swap between Superliners and Amfleet/Horizon is planned in advance, not on a whim. And all (non-California) Superliner coaches have 62 seats upstairs.

The California corridors have a mix of fleets (but the Surfliner and Capitol Corridor also operate unreserved anyway, so seat assignments wouldn't even be an issue), but even then, the trains that get the single-level cars are planned in advance, and for the bi-level sets that run with a Superliner coach mixed in with regular CA cars will almost always have that Superliner in the same relative position in the consist anyway. And those trains never wye. The Surfliners are always push to LA, pull from LA, the San Joaquins and Capitol Corridor trains always run locomotive facing Oakland/San Jose, cab car the other way, so the cars never have any reason to change direction. The Cascades is the one route I'm not current on for equipment rotation, because they just pulled their old Talgos out of service and are replacing them with Horizons. Even still, I would be shocked if they didn't have a consist rotation plan in place knowing which trains will be Talgos and which will be Horizons (since they need to know the capacity of the business class section, which would be different for Talgo vs. Horizon; and if you know how many business class seats can be sold, then you know the type of cars you're planning to run).

I'm just not seeing this wildly varied collection of car configurations that you're claiming. Yes, the different regions have their own cars, but (notwithstanding the sudden replacement of Talgos) they never mix.

I've never played Minecraft so I couldn't speak to the relevance of it in terms of railroad operation.

Further, if you offer customers a seat facing one way, and it happens to be facing another way on that particular car, you're in for a lot of problems. Setting high expectations and not delivering is worse than offering nothing.

And the solution to that is to have the cars facing the same way, which really isn't all that difficult for most of the operation (again, it's already done that way on eastern long-hauls; the primary reason it isn't done that way elsewhere is because there hasn't been a reason to do so). Or it could be as simple as having "reversible" seat assignment identifiers so that seat 1A is always front-left in the car (the conductor could just walk through the car flipping the ID card over).

 

[Trogdor]

Another thing the airlines don't have to deal with is the "consist" - a plane does not get reconfigured during booking, taxiing and/or flight - like a train can and does.

Adding/removing cars is already something accounted for in the reservation system. How else do you get a 421 sleeper and a 1 sleeper on the same train?

As for planes being "reconfigured" during booking, you'd be surprised how many different internal configurations of the same type of plane some carriers have. And often, they won't know until 2-3 days out (and still subject to change until departure time) exactly which configuration they'll be using on a given flight.

 

[Seaboard92]

All it takes is patience and a little time (and some enforcement) to convert to assigned seating. And if they made a concerted effort to put cars in the same direction every time, it would be easier (and be a help to this thread).

Moreover, they can label each and every station very cheaply with position letter signs and put that position letter on the ticket so even at unmanned stations, people know where to stand. Then, for unmanned or manned stations with a waiting room, they could use the TV displays to update last minute information to have people stand by a corrected letter. Would speed up boarding at little cost. They could also text passengers at all station with that capability any updates to loading position, necessary room and seat changes, etc.

As to other inexpensive changes, any sleeper passenger/room can have cards made prior to initial departure and given to SLA to put in the room prior to the passengers' boarding welcoming the passengers by name.

Electronic key locks can be provided tp sleeper passengers so rooms can be locked (and thus won't pop open when the train hits bad track) when passengers are out of the room. Amtrak could advertise this as a big safety thing even though it's not, in reality, a big issue. The SLA would have a key that unlocks all rooms in the car that also reprograms locks and a machine accessible by the SLA to program/reprogram keys when key is lost or when it goes brain dead. It also insures unused rooms are not improperly used by passengers who might sit in them for the view (Covid cleaned) or use the toilet (after having been cleaned by SLA).

What your proposing is actually very similar to what Deutsche Bahn does in a way. Instead of telling you on your ticket what boarding location to stand by they have giant posters along the platform that dictate which car stops where and for the most part it always stops in the same place. But when it is in reverse order due to operational problems there are multiple announcements on the PA, and the TV Screen.

A few years ago on the Silvers they were posting welcome cards on all of the beds, I even have one of mine still. It was a very nice touch.

Russian Railways, VIA Rail's Renaissance and Prestige, and the OBB Nightjet all have room keys on their trains. I honestly think a key would be a fantastic function to have, and it would be a nice thing to market.

Great job of giving us some real numbers for the sake of discussion. If I am reading them correctly, the cost to provide this amenity package systemwide for every room would be 497,130 (the number of sleeper spaces annually) x $15.82 (the cost per passenger), or about $7.8 million a year if every room were fully occupied? Of course, the bathrobes and other items can be saved if the train isn't full, so the actual cost might be considerably less given that some rooms are empty or not fully occupied.

Another way to look at is this: If the upgraded service leads to the sale of one additional low-bucket bedroom or one higher-bucket roomette per departure on the Lake Shore, for example, that likely would generate enough revenue to cover the cost of the amenity package for everyone on that train.

Thank you I am very much a detail freak. So if I'm going to make an argument I'm going to give the best details I can give in order to prove it. I also really enjoy researching things. I love researching things.

Now it should be noted I was using Allibaba which is a direct line to Chinese companies so that also could be reflected in the price. But that being said any company you go to for ordering. The more you buy the better price you get because of economies of scale. And you are exactly right one roomette sold in any bucket would be enough to pay for the entire trains worth of amenities. The upgraded service is also highly marketable and provides a good first impression and hopefully would lead to an increase in sales.

Sounds like you are a bit 'obsessed' with amenity details... If so, you would have loved dining in PRR's Broadway Limited twin unit diner....even the butter pats had keystones molded in.....

Well I did work on a EX PRR Broadway Limited 21 Roomette car in PV service. I'm very much obsessed with the small details because its the small things that add up that provide a good experience. And anything a person takes home with the logo is free marketing. This is one reason when stores give us a bag with their logo to carry our items out it has their logo. For the sole reason of when you are walking down the street people can see the brand. I'm very much a fan of branding, and having continuity in the brand. Hence Amtrak really needs to do something about having three paint schemes right now on the national network trains.

One thing you would also have to keep in mind when costing this sort of thing is extra labor costs involved in ordering, storing, and distributing all of these amenities. I don't know what Amtrak's procurement policies are like, hopefully they're not as complicated as the government, but you still need a process to review multiple vendors and decide which provides the best value and and be assured that the selection is fair, and nobody's skimming of money anywhere. Then, after the stuff is ordered, it needs to be sent to where it can be stored and loaded on to trains. The stuff would probably need to be stored at all of the termini of trains with sleepers, so at each of those locations, someone would need to spend time keeping track of it. It might not required a full time person at each terminus, but it's still work that has to be done by somebody. Then the stuff has to be brought out to the sleepers before each departure in quantities that would include provision for passengers boarding at intermediate stations. Who's going to do that? The SCAs? Are they going to authorize overtime for them to do it? Somebody's going to have to do it. Providing these extras will require additional FTE or some sort, and that needs to be calculated before one can really talk about how expensive they are. If they don't get the extra FTE, then the current work force will have to not do something else if they're expected to dole out amenities. And, to be quite frank, the experience of the airlines has shown that most customers don't really care about these extras; they are riding a transportation service to travel somewhere.

That is true those are costs I did not add into it because that's a lot harder to figure out for the sake of an argument. Now if I was going to write a formal proposal for it I would definitely take the time to go into the entire procurement process. I agree the quality sounds cheap mostly because I was using Alibaba for just getting fast numbers. Hopefully if Amtrak were to go into procurement for something like I've proposed I would hope they would go to better suppliers and go for brands with good name recognition.

Now to answer your questions. I would store them and have the procurement done by the commissary at the end terminals because they already have the infrastructure in place to deliver items to the trains in the yard. Just have each cars worth of items labeled by car and dropped off in the vestibule for the SCA when they come to the car. Then as far as getting them dole out the amenities it is rather simple to place the items in each room as you are making it up, or checking to make sure its fully provisioned. I know when I've worked sleepers I've always made sure before leaving the yard I had everything in each room that I would need.

From the videos I've seen of the RZD trains the amenities are laid out prior to boarding. I don't know if that is done by their SCA or if it is done by someone in catering in the yard either way it is a nice presentation. And in customer service presentation is something that is very valuable. A good example of that is how much money Disney puts in ensuring their hotels, and parks are presentable. It is all a part of branding and when you think of Disney you think of a company that has their stuff together.

Now as far as on the trains I don't know what Amtrak's SCAs do when they receive a consist in the yard but I would assume they count their supplies, and make sure each room is well provisioned.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

it’s odd to me that in this and other threads there are members who act like things that used to be done everyday are somehow impossible.

Like loading amenity kits onto the train and distributing them. How was it done on the empire builder and coast starlight in the past?

And loading meals en-route from local caterers ala the empire builder.

And yes even serving entree salads from a superliner dining car!

 

[Sidney]

I was on the EB in July. Several pizzas were picked up in Shelby and offered to sleeper passengers. We also had a choice of cafe car food in addition to the flex dining. I ve been on several trains since then and that was the only time that happened.


Really,if flexible dining is here to stay and I think it is,we need more variety and stuff like sandwiches and healthier food to sustain a journey of more than one night.

 

[Dakota 400]

I was on the EB in July. Several pizzas were picked up in Shelby and offered to sleeper passengers. We also had a choice of cafe car food in addition to the flex dining. I ve been on several trains since then and that was the only time that happened.

Were you informed that this was going to happen?

I think doing so is a good idea. But, as a Sleeping Car guest whose fare ought to include a surf/turf dinner--if I so chose--a "pizza" does not quite meet the expectations for dining that I have on Amtrak.

The whole world is SCREWY and that includes Amtrak!

 

[tgstubbs1]

I was on the EB in July. Several pizzas were picked up in Shelby ...


Really,if flexible dining is here to stay and I think it is,we need more variety and stuff like sandwiches and healthier food to sustain a journey of more than one night.

Yes we do! Healthier food like pizza (Pizza Hut double stuffed crust), Po' Boy Shrimp Sandwiches, Philly Cheese Steaks, Onion Rings, Double Bacon Cheeseburgers. Stuff people eat to sustain themselves everyday.

 

[Nick Farr]

it’s odd to me that in this and other threads there are members who act like things that used to be done everyday are somehow impossible

It's equally odd to me that there are members who think all they need to do is complain on an Internet forum loud enough and the specific meal they liked will just magically be offered again.

Anything is possible. But to get there you need to acknowledge the reality of the situation and the limitations embedded in the current system, including Congressional mandates.

Reform of the product is possible, but not if you give up on it.

Amtrak's customer base is divided between the states, the Federal government, its passengers and ultimately services that are consistently profitable.

In this situation, saying "If I don't get my entree salad, I'm never going Amtrak again" just plays into the part of Amtrak that wants to kill off the LD network or reduce it to a capacity level that doesn't care how bad the service gets.

They know they have a captive market. They would rather 3x weekly with self-loading cargo that doesn't complain and makes a profit over daily service that demands dinner salads and loses money against congressional mandates.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

In this situation, saying "If I don't get my entree salad, I'm never going Amtrak again" just plays into the part of Amtrak that wants to kill off the LD network or reduce it to a capacity level that doesn't care how bad the service gets.

I never said that. It's doubtful I would ride Amtrak for multiple overnights with the current menu offerings but I had already slowed that down when they started making other cuts.

 

[fdaley]

Amtrak has never had any service that was truly profitable, and it never will, in large part because it functions within a transportation marketplace that's dominated by publicly funded highway and air systems that have much larger economies of scale. The real questions at this point are whether, as a matter of public policy, the federal government wants to use Amtrak as a means to maintain and perhaps expand passenger rail's role in the national transportation system (i.e., by making investments that allow it to serve more travelers) -- and whether the long-distance trains continue to be a part of that.

In terms of the food issue, if the U.S. Senate changes hands as a result of the November election, as now appears more likely than not, the congressional mandate that Amtrak not lose money on food service (the so-called "Mica amendment") could soon be history. The House already passed a transportation authorization bill last month that eliminates the Mica language on dining service. If the Mica language is gone, we'll quickly find out whether Amtrak's current management is really as hostile to the long-distance trains as some of us fear. Of course, if we have a new president, he'll be choosing some new Amtrak board members who might steer the management in a new direction, at which point lots of things might become possible.

I'd certainly like to see Amtrak's long-distance trains managed in a way that makes them more useful and attractive to more travelers, including me. But if Amtrak's management is intent on running these trains into the ground, I'm sorry, but I don't feel I'm under some obligation to continue to support them by spending hundreds of dollars a night for sleeper rooms that offer the same few TV-dinner meals day after day. I would prefer to travel by train if decent service were offered, but a captive I'm not.

 

[MARC Rider]

I never said that. It's doubtful I would ride Amtrak for multiple overnights with the current menu offerings but I had already slowed that down when they started making other cuts.

It really doesn't matter because the vast majority of Amtrak passengers don't ride on multiple-night trips, and Congress didn't establish and appropriate taxpayer money to Amtrak so they could service the needs of people who make multiple-night trips and who demand white-glove service.

 

[fdaley]

It really doesn't matter because the vast majority of Amtrak passengers don't ride on multiple-night trips, and Congress didn't establish and appropriate taxpayer money to Amtrak so they could service the needs of people who make multiple-night trips and who demand white-glove service.

Nobody is demanding white-glove service, nor has Amtrak ever provided such. And most Amtrak passengers don't travel overnight period, because the vast majority of its trains are day runs on clusters of corridors in the Northeast, Midwest and California. But Congress created Amtrak to run a passenger rail system that's national in scope, and I think there are a lot of members of Congress who understand that, if they want rail service that connects all parts of the country, overnight trains are the most efficient way to provide that. And if you're going to run overnight trains that people ride for 20 or 30 hours, you need to be able to feed people onboard and treat them well enough that they're willing to use the service, because most people really do have other choices.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

who demand white-glove service.

Lol. A diner that serves food on par with a Denny’s or maybe an applebees is not white glove service.

If so few people are riding these trains overnight they need to be discontinued because they are not serving their purpose.

 

[Qapla]

Decent food and decent service should exist on LD trains.

However, it does not require "white table cloths and 'real' silverware" to serve decent meals. If more attention was given to the actual food and less to the "bells and whistles" passengers would feel much better about the food service. Surely, people would be happy if they were served a filling, tasty, nutritious well prepared meal even if the table did not have a table cloth.

Limiting the meals to just a couple TV diner selections leaves much room for complaint - especially with the cost of a sleeper on Amtrak.

Shopping for better quality and selection of meals should be able to be done at minimal expense. Surely there are vendors who would be willing to offer a better selection than the current eating fare - at the same, or possibly lower, cost. It is a very competitive market.