What is the Line of Authority on an Overnight Train?

[Dangerous Johnny O'D]

I am curious about the hierarchy of an overnight Train, such as the Cardinal or the Lake shore Limited

There are give distinct groups of employees

Train Engineers

Train Conductors

Dining Car Attendants

Sleeping Car Attendants

Lounge Car Personnel

Who is top dog in the train, who is next? Who is in charge of all Sleeping Car Attendants, of all Dining Car Attendants, etc?

All responses,especially by Amtrak Professionals, are welcome

 

[Ocala Mike]

Not an Amtrak Professional, but I always understood the Conductor to be in charge of the train.

Ocala Mike

 

[Ryan]

Conductor is responsible for the safe operation of the train.

Used to be that there was a Chief of Onboard Services that all the OBS people worked for (dining car, cafe car, coach/sleeping car attendants). Not sure if one of the two LSAs onboard (dining care ad cafe) is considered the Lead LSA or everyone's just on their own.

 

[Dangerous Johnny O'D]

Conductor is responsible for the safe operation of the train.

Used to be that there was a Chief of Onboard Services that all the OBS people worked for (dining car, cafe car, coach/sleeping car attendants). Not sure if one of the two LSAs onboard (dining care ad cafe) is considered the Lead LSA or everyone's just on their own.

okay, thanks Ryan. So the conductor can overrule the Engineer when it concerns safety issues. Interesting..

 

[AlanB]

Conductor is responsible for the safe operation of the train.

Used to be that there was a Chief of Onboard Services that all the OBS people worked for (dining car, cafe car, coach/sleeping car attendants). Not sure if one of the two LSAs onboard (dining care ad cafe) is considered the Lead LSA or everyone's just on their own.

okay, thanks Ryan. So the conductor can overrule the Engineer when it concerns safety issues. Interesting..

The engineer cannot do anything, and that includes moving the train without the conductor's permission. The engineer is just the driver; the conductor is in charge of the train.

 

[TimePeace]

Same on freight trains, I think.

 

[amtkstn]

The conductor has been the boss of the train since railroad started nearly two hundred years ago.

 

[the_traveler]

And that is true on any train - either LD, SD or Corridor! If the Conductor says to stop the train, it must stop! If the Conductor says for the train to depart, only then can it move. If the train is running 2 hours late and the next stop "should" be a smoke or fresh air break, it is the Conductor who decides if the stop will be 5 minutes, 10 minutes or -0- minutes long!

 

[SubwayNut]

To make things more confusing on VIA Rail Canada the two engineers in the head end are in charged of all movement since they abolished conductors. The Train Manager isn't even allowed to communicate via the general dispatcher channel, a seperate internal crew channel is used (all carry radios) to communicate with all crew members from the locomotive engineers. The strangest part of this I found on my just Completed Canadian trip is they must wait for the locomotive engineers to give them permission via radio to open the doors when arriving in a station! None of the standard spotting from the conductor, it's reversed

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I think that there's the train crew led by the conductor with an assiatant conductor, two engineers (one assistant), and a brakeman. They switch after a few hours. Then the service crew led by the OBS Chief with Coach, Sleeper, Lounge, and Dining Car attendants. LSA is under OBS Chief.

Please advise if I am mistaken.

 

[the_traveler]

Please advise if I am mistaken.

You are mistaken! There is no OBS Chief! And there is no fireman in the cab either. And on Amtrak, the Conductor is the boss, law, commander, etc... of the entire train!

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Please advise if I am mistaken.

You are mistaken! There is no OBS Chief! And there is no fireman in the cab either. And on Amtrak, the Conductor is the boss, law, commander, etc... of the entire train!

Well, guess what? I read about that on a BOOK. Looks like I can't trust Amtrak books anymore. But is there not a assistant engineer at all, even on LDs? And why is OBS Chief a title on AU?

 

[RRrich]

Please advise if I am mistaken.

You are mistaken! There is no OBS Chief! And there is no fireman in the cab either. And on Amtrak, the Conductor is the boss, law, commander, etc... of the entire train!

Well, guess what? I read about that on a BOOK. Looks like I can't trust Amtrak books anymore. But is there not a assistant engineer at all, even on LDs? And why is OBS Chief a title on AU?

You are mistaken but you used to be right. There used to be an OBS Chief and I believe also a fireman. That book was probably correct when it was written.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

So remember all you 'talking cattle' out there: Be NICE to the conductor and respect them! They are 'the hook' and can leave you trackside!

 

[printman2000]

Please advise if I am mistaken.

You are mistaken! There is no OBS Chief! And there is no fireman in the cab either.

I am pretty certain there are still Assistant Engineers (firemen). Perhaps not on every route. I could not imagine them only having one person in the cab on LD routes.

Course, I have been wrong a few times in my life.

 

[amtkstn]

If the train run is over six hours, Amtrak has a two person crew in the locomotive cab.

 

[Trogdor]

If the train run is over six hours, Amtrak has a two person crew in the locomotive cab.

If the engineer's run is over six hours, there are two people in the locomotive.

The Capitol Limited, for example, is clearly over six hours, but there is usually only ever one guy up front, because they change often enough to keep their run under six hours (CHI-TOL, TOL-PGH, PGH-CUM, CUM-WAS).

As for the rest of the crew, it depends on the train, but the basic minimum crew is one engineer and one conductor. However, on passenger runs, there is usually a minimum of two conductors (one conductor and an assistant conductor). It's possible for there to only be one conductor, however (and that becomes a very tough job to handle everything, and he gets a pay bonus for those situations).

No brakeman these days.

 

[the_traveler]

As said, if the run is over 6 hours, the crew (by federal law) can only work a certain number of hours per day. That is why there are crew change points every so often! These "smoke or fresh air breaks' are not really for the passenger's sake - they are sometimes for crew changes. They can only work IIRC 8-10 hours a day, and then have many hours of rest before they can work again! They is why sonetimes you may have a crew "die on duty" (exceed the permitted number of hours working per day) - and the train must stop on a siding or in a freight yard for many hours until a new crew arrives!

As an example - on the SWC from CHI-LAX, you may have like 5-7 operating crews (engineers and conductors) thru the complete trip! (The OBS - like the car attendants and Dining Car staff - stays with the train for the complete trip.)

 

[Dangerous Johnny O'D]

Thanks to everyone who helped answer this question. It was most helpful

 

[railiner]

Prior to Amtrak directly employing the operating crew--engineers, conductors, etc., the Chief of On Board Services position was deemed necessary by top management, as many host railroad supplied operating crews were not very cognizant of passenger service issues and management. The period of Amtrak from the beginning until that point, there were still many veteran crews from the freight railroads that did have prior passenger experience. After Amtrak had their own operating crews from coast to coast, operating only Amtrak trains, it was easier to incorporate that part of the job into their training. At that time, top management probably deemed the Chief job to be expendable, and saved a lot by eliminating it, and giving the full responsibility to the Conductors.

Even though the Conductor has authority over the engineet, the engineer position requires higher training and skill level than conductor. In a pinch, a train can proceed without a conductor, but not the other way around.

One place where the conductor is subordinate to the train operator, is the New York City Subway system....

Years before Amtrak, long distance trains were In charge of Conductors. Engineers had authority over firemen. Chefs had authority over galley crew, but Dining Car stewards were over them and waiters. Pullman Conductors were over Pullman porters, and Pullman operated parlor cars, etc.

 

[daveyb99]

The engineer cannot do anything, and that includes moving the train without the conductor's permission. The engineer is just the driver; the conductor is in charge of the train.

Maybe as a matter of rule, but as a matter of practice? The Engineer is talking with dispatchers and looking at signals and everything else Forward. The Conductor, while maybe trying to keep up with that is also dealing with lineup asking for an onboard upgrade. I really do not think the Engineer needs Conductor approval to stop at a red signal, or start up again after being put on a siding. At a station, sure ... but out on the open rails? Really?

 

[jis]

One place where the conductor is subordinate to the train operator, is the New York City Subway system....

Well, if we are going to talk about non-FRA operations then for example NJT RiverLINE has no conductors, just the driver/engineer who has to be NORAC qualified since s/he operates on NORAC signaled trackage.

Even on NYCTA, if they can ever get over 19th century union operating rules and actually operate OPTO there will be no conductor. Most other modern subway systems, specially those with ATC do not have conductors.

But neither New York subway trains nor RiverLINE trains are really "overnight operations", though they might operate after dark. So this is a bit OT.

 

[Texan Eagle]

To make things more confusing on VIA Rail Canada the two engineers in the head end are in charged of all movement since they abolished conductors. The Train Manager isn't even allowed to communicate via the general dispatcher channel, a seperate internal crew channel is used (all carry radios) to communicate with all crew members from the locomotive engineers. The strangest part of this I found on my just Completed Canadian trip is they must wait for the locomotive engineers to give them permission via radio to open the doors when arriving in a station! None of the standard spotting from the conductor, it's reversed

It is interesting how different countries in the world have different hierarchy regarding on-board staff. For example, on the passenger trains in India, there is a Loco Pilot (engineer) and Assistant Loco Pilot sitting upfront in the locomotive (there are always two people in the locomotive) and a Guard sitting in the very last carriage in the train, who has the authority over the train. There is no conductor at all. Instead there are Traveling Ticket Examiners (TTE) who do a job similar to coach attendants on Amtrak. This system was inherited from the British. I am interested in knowing if this system of 2 drivers, a guard and ticket examiners still exists in Britain or any of the British colonies, or is it confined only to the Indian sub-continent now.

 

[jis]

It is interesting how different countries in the world have different hierarchy regarding on-board staff. For example, on the passenger trains in India, there is a Loco Pilot (engineer) and Assistant Loco Pilot sitting upfront in the locomotive (there are always two people in the locomotive) and a Guard sitting in the very last carriage in the train, who has the authority over the train. There is no conductor at all. There is no conductor at all. Instead there are Traveling Ticket Examiners (TTE) who do a job similar to coach attendants on Amtrak.

Actually, the Guard in India is the equivalent of the Conductor in the US. In freight as well as passenger in the US there is a Conductor who is in charge of the train, just like in India there is a Guard who is in charge of the train.

It is a historical accident that in the US traditionally, the Conductor on passenger trains also has acted as a fare collector, with a number of Assistant Conductors assisting him/her.

I am not sure that the TTE in India is equivalent to an Amtrak SCA or CA. SCAs and CAs in US are not authorized to collect tickets/fares. They might do so just to help the Conductor out, but it is not part of their job description.

In addition to TTEs there are Coach Attendants in Sleeping Cars in India who are pretty equivalent to SCAs on Amtrak. The TTE role is one that is unique to India with no equivalent in the US. That role is entirely subsumed by Conductors and Assistant Conductors.

This system was inherited from the British. I am interested in knowing if this system of 2 drivers, a guard and ticket examiners still exists in Britain or any of the British colonies, or is it confined only to the Indian sub-continent now.

I have no clue what happens in other erstwhile British colonies.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

The engineer cannot do anything, and that includes moving the train without the conductor's permission. The engineer is just the driver; the conductor is in charge of the train.

I always think of the conductor as being the Captain.

The engineer as the Helmsman.

The SCA as your Yeoman.

And Alan as Mr. Spock. :wub: :giggle: