Empire Builder discharges passengers in the middle of nowhere

[the_traveler]

1339434898[/url]' post='373010']

1339429931[/url]' post='372991']

1339424580[/url]' post='372967']If they were going to do something like that they may as well just backed up to the station

Do you know what is involved in backing up a train?

It's not just putting it in reverse and going backwards!

You have to contact the dispatcher to request permission to do a backup move (remember other trains use that same track also), then you must position the conductor at the rear door of the train to watch for any dangers and to tell the locomotive engineer when to sound the horn for any grade crossings or other reasons. And at night it's much harder to see obstacles then it is in the daytime, and the EB is not exactly a short train!

It's one thing to back up 10 feet at a station. It's totally different to back up 2 miles on a heavily used mainline!

Thanks for the 'idiot treatment', but I am not your idiot.

I was NOT calling you an idiot! I was explaining the procedure to the many members and guests who may your reply and think that backing up a train is as simple as backing up a car after missing someonee's driveway. They do not have to call the state DOT to back up on the road! Many non-rail fans and first time riders are not aware what has to be done.

How many times have we had a reply saying "Why didn't the train swerve (to miss the person/car/truck/etc)?

Please don't take it personally!

 

[AlanB]

Just an attempt to cover up their mistake.

Or an attempt to get the folks to their final destination a little bit sooner.

Or perhaps the women had harangued the conductor to within an inch of his life for allowing them to be carried by and kept insisting that they would not accept being carried to Staples or any other station and then having to double back.

And then it was only after they got off that they realized their mistake and conveniently forgot that they were the ones who had insisted that they be allowed to get off prior to Staples.

I'm not saying that is what happened here; but it is certainly one possible explanation for the sequence of events that transpired. And I have seen people put up a major stink because they missed their stop and "NO" isn't an acceptable answer for them.

Like George said, there may be more to this story than we know and is currently being reported.

 

[AlanB]

And now I'm for certain SCD is a crew change point.

According to the crew districts maps published by Trains Mag a while back, the crew change points are Minot to the west, St. Cloud, and then Winona to the east.

St. Cloud is the home base for the crews going west & east.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Just an attempt to cover up their mistake.

Or an attempt to get the folks to their final destination a little bit sooner.

Or perhaps the women had harangued the conductor to within an inch of his life for allowing them to be carried by and kept insisting that they would not accept being carried to Staples or any other station and then having to double back. And then it was only after they got off that they realized their mistake and conveniently forgot that they were the ones who had insisted that they be allowed to get off prior to Staples. I'm not saying that is what happened here; but it is certainly one possible explanation for the sequence of events that transpired. And I have seen people put up a major stink because they missed their stop and "NO" isn't an acceptable answer for them. Like George said, there may be more to this story than we know and is currently being reported.

How exactly do you "harangue" someone to "within an inch of his life?" How and why are passengers missing their stops on the long distance network in the first place? Are they failing to operate the locomotive properly? There may very well be more to this story, but unless the passengers were up in the cab of the locomotive it doesn't change the fundamental qualities of who left who behind.

 

[Steve4031]

Even Drunks and disorderly passengers are put off the train at a grade crossing or station with the police meeting them regardless of the location. Putting passengers off the train anyplace other than the scheduled stop is unsafe. These employees deserve what they get. Even if the passengers demanded to be let off, the train should have kept moving. There safety is still the responsibility of the crew.

 

[saxman]

Thanks for the 'idiot treatment', but I am not your idiot. Trains miss stations all the time and have to back up. I was on one where the Conductor missed his orders and had to back up to get them. The train only missed the station by a couple of miles. But you have to think like a union train worker. If they called the dispatcher then the jig was up and everyone would know they made a mistake. If the went on to the next station and had Amtrak get the ladies a cab then everyone knows they made a mistake. So they just dumped them off in the dirt thinking they had covered up their screw up. But lucky for us these ladies complained and went to the press. Now lets hope these brain dead unionites get what they deserve. Every T&E employee knew what was going on, even the crew in the engine and of course the stupid car attendant that started it all. But union guys stick together so I am sure they all got together and concocted some story to justify their behavior. I have been on Amtrak trains where the attendant couldn't even figure out how to lower and lock the beds, so he stuffed rolls of toilet paper between the bed and the wall to hold it in place. When this idiot finally left I reached under the bed and released the lock and removed the toilet paper. There are plenty of good people out there looking for work. Amtrak needs to get rid of idiots like these and hire someone that cares.

This incident has absolutely nothing to do with unions. Not sure how it's looked at this way. This could have happened whether the employees were unionized or not. We will never know what actually happened, so therefore, who are we to judge what should happen to the conductors? That's between Amtrak and the conductor. I find the idea that the T&E crew conspired to cover up their mess up a little over the top. And as I stated earlier in another post, SCD is a crew change point. So the crew that stopped the train 2 miles outside of SCD was a total different crew from the ones that supposedly awoke the two passengers in the first place.

Like I said, a huge misscommunication. Nothing more.

 

[amamba]

I guess my only experience on the LD trains has been endpoint to endpoint travel so I am not familiar with the standard protocol. But on the NEC everyone is expected to be aware of their own destination and get themselves off the train, which is where I am coming from. If I am not standing at the door when we arrive at PVD, I will probably miss the stop. The only person to blame for that is myself.

Please tell me you did not just compare this situation to missing a stop on the NEC. :wacko:

Yes, because as I noted my only experience on LD trains/sleeper travel has been endpoint detraining, so I don't know what the standards/procedures are for detraining midpoint. That is why I asked why the women didn't come down the stairs when the train was stopped. It was a honest question.

 

[AlanB]

How exactly do you "harangue" someone to "within an inch of his life?"

Become an Amtrak conductor and you'll find out!

How and why are passengers missing their stops on the long distance network in the first place?

There are many ways that it can happen, despite Amtrak's best efforts to prevent it. Especially in today's world with the technology that permits people to wear headphones that block out noise. Although there are plenty of other ways that it can happen too, but having one's music on is one of the most common ways today.

Are they failing to operate the locomotive properly?

Short of the engineer totally forgetting to stop at a station, I can't think of any other way that failing to operate the loco properly would cause a carry-by.

There may very well be more to this story, but unless the passengers were up in the cab of the locomotive it doesn't change the fundamental qualities of who left who behind.

I'm not arguing that Amtrak made a mistake by allowing a carry-by to happen; so I have no idea why you've even posted this.

I'm only suggesting the possibility that there may be more to why they got left where they got left, instead of being carried to Staples.

 

[henryj]

Thanks for the 'idiot treatment', but I am not your idiot. Trains miss stations all the time and have to back up. I was on one where the Conductor missed his orders and had to back up to get them. The train only missed the station by a couple of miles. But you have to think like a union train worker. If they called the dispatcher then the jig was up and everyone would know they made a mistake. If the went on to the next station and had Amtrak get the ladies a cab then everyone knows they made a mistake. So they just dumped them off in the dirt thinking they had covered up their screw up. But lucky for us these ladies complained and went to the press. Now lets hope these brain dead unionites get what they deserve. Every T&E employee knew what was going on, even the crew in the engine and of course the stupid car attendant that started it all. But union guys stick together so I am sure they all got together and concocted some story to justify their behavior. I have been on Amtrak trains where the attendant couldn't even figure out how to lower and lock the beds, so he stuffed rolls of toilet paper between the bed and the wall to hold it in place. When this idiot finally left I reached under the bed and released the lock and removed the toilet paper. There are plenty of good people out there looking for work. Amtrak needs to get rid of idiots like these and hire someone that cares.

This incident has absolutely nothing to do with unions. Not sure how it's looked at this way. This could have happened whether the employees were unionized or not. We will never know what actually happened, so therefore, who are we to judge what should happen to the conductors? That's between Amtrak and the conductor. I find the idea that the T&E crew conspired to cover up their mess up a little over the top. And as I stated earlier in another post, SCD is a crew change point. So the crew that stopped the train 2 miles outside of SCD was a total different crew from the ones that supposedly awoke the two passengers in the first place.

Like I said, a huge misscommunication. Nothing more.

Anytime a crew dumps two old ladies off the train in a ditch it's a major screw up no matter what took place. So it is much much more than a misscommunication.

 

[Ryan]

Anytime a crew dumps two old ladies off the train in a ditch

That's a little bit of hyperbole there. They were at a grade crossing. They had a cell phone (I misread the article as to whoch party didn't have one). Call the station, call 911, do something other than blame Amtrak for your problems.

Did Amtrak screw up here? Absolutely.

Did these two ladies screw up too? Absolutely.

Personal responsibility. Live it, love it. At least you've moved past blaming "government workers" an "bran dead unionites".

 

[Devil's Advocate]

How exactly do you "harangue" someone to "within an inch of his life?"

Become an Amtrak conductor and you'll find out!

I'll be sure to do that. Right after you become a 75 year old lady trying to chose between being left on the tracks or being carried another five or six hours away from her home. Your compassion for the staff is admirable. Too bad you can't seem to conjure up any for the passengers.

I'm only suggesting the possibility that there may be more to why they got left where they got left, instead of being carried to Staples.

If that's all you were trying to do then why did you feel the need to fabricate an entirely new story out of thin air to go along with your otherwise reasonable suggestion? That's not at all what I read in George's much more muted post.

 

[AlanB]

How exactly do you "harangue" someone to "within an inch of his life?"

Become an Amtrak conductor and you'll find out!

I'll be sure to do that. Right after you become a 75 year old lady trying to chose between being left on the tracks or being carried another five or six hours away from her home. Your compassion for the staff appears is admirable. Too bad you can't seem to conjure up any for the passengers.

And you would do well to learn to have some compassion for the crew! YOU have no idea what went on there. All you have is what the ladies are reporting; yet you've decided that the crew is 100% wrong without any other facts or information.

Unlike you, I have compassion for both at this point, since we don't have all the facts! We have a one sided story. We don't know why the crew decided to leave them where they did. Yes, it was still wrong for the crew to do that, but that doesn't change the fact that those ladies might have been putting up a major stink in that sleeping car and waking up every other passenger in the car with their complaining. So the conductor in an effort to protect the rest of the passengers agreed to stop the train where he did.

Again, I'm not saying that is what happened. Just that there is way too much that is unknown to us for you to be making any judgments.

I'm only suggesting the possibility that there may be more to why they got left where they got left, instead of being carried to Staples.

If that's all you were trying to do then why did you feel the need to fabricate a new story out of thin air to go along with your otherwise reasonable suggestion?

I didn't fabricate anything. I've seen this type of situation happen first hand. I simply suggested one possible reason for things transpiring the way that they did. And again, I didn't say that it did happen, just that it might have been why things transpired the way that they did.

I know that it's hard for you not to blame everything on Amtrak like always and to complain about Amtrak like always. But maybe just once you could wait for all the facts to come in first.

 

[the_traveler]

I have to agree with Alan. (And not as a moderator either.)

Unless ALL of the following happened, you can not have all the fact in the case.

1. You were aboard that train
2. You were in that sleeper
3. You heard EVERY word said by those ladies, the SCA AND the Conductor
4. You heard the radio conversation between the Conductor and Engineer (or did the Conductor pull the emergency brake to stop the train and wake everybody aboard up?)
5. You were also kicked off the train with them
6. You talked to the Conductor as the train departed

Because #5 and #6 are impossible to do at the same time, you can not be certain what actually happened. So why speculate at this time?

 

[VentureForth]

The crew change is completely irrelevant. It was the sleeping car attendant's responsibility to not only ensure the passengers were awake, but also to hold their hand as they step off the train. The conductor does a sweep along with the SA in coach, verifying seat checks. It's the SCA's responsibility that these lady's got off the train in St. Cloud. Period.

Now, letting them off was an issue for the conductor. An SCA can't stop the train - a conductor must. The situation, the judgement and the resulting action was poor. But this was the conductor's fault regardless of when or where he got on. Again, crew change is irrelevant.

Fault 1: SCA (or alternate who covered for sleep time) for not helping ladies physically off the train.

Fault 2: Ladies for not having situational awareness (having been downstairs ready to detrain when it stopped.

Fault 3: Conductor (again, doesn't matter if he was fresh or up against 8 hrs of duty) for letting them off without them knowing where they were.

 

[Ispolkom]

One line in that story caught my attention: "Another person waiting at the station to pick up a passenger who didn't get off the train"

How many passengers missed the St. Cloud stop?

 

[me_little_me]

Here is an alternate possibility:

Upon arrival at the station, the SCA and conductor tried to help the ladies off the train. They refused to leave and locked themselves in their room. The conductor begged and pleaded with them to leave as it was their station but they started shooting and he quickly retreated. The conductor then called the police who sent out the SWAT team. However, since the police were concerned innocent bystanders at the station, they told the conductor to move a few miles out of town. As the engineer moved, he encountered a stop signal and waited for clearance. The perps sneaked off the train yelling "The coppers'll never get us". They hid under the bridge and one of their accomplices John "Old Froggy" Dillinger picked them up so they could knock off the St. Cloud Bank while the police were out chasing the train. Meanwhile the train proceeded to the meeting point with the police who thoroughly searched the room for the perps but left without finding them. The ladies complained to Amtrak because they forgot where the bank was so ended up with no cash.

See! It could have been their fault that they were not dropped off at their station - which of course is the real issue.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I didn't fabricate anything. I've seen this type of situation happen first hand.

You've seen two senior ladies put off the train miles away from any station with nobody to meet them because they woke up the other passengers and scared a frail little conductor to within an inch of his life? That sounds like one heck of a story. I can't wait to hear the rest of it.

 

[Henry Kisor]

Unless we should learn new facts (and I doubt that we will), with what is so far known it seems a perfect storm of irresponsibility -- on the part of the crew and also on the part of the women, who said they travel Amtrak a lot and should have gone down to the vestibule as soon as the train arrived at the station.

 

[fairviewroad]

So why speculate at this time?

Sheesh, half the threads on this forum are nothing but speculation. Besides, speculating is fun...case in point:

Here is an alternate possibility:

Upon arrival at the station, the SCA and conductor tried to help the ladies off the train. They refused to leave and locked themselves in their room. The conductor begged and pleaded with them to leave as it was their station but they started shooting and he quickly retreated. The conductor then called the police who sent out the SWAT team. However, since the police were concerned innocent bystanders at the station, they told the conductor to move a few miles out of town. As the engineer moved, he encountered a stop signal and waited for clearance. The perps sneaked off the train yelling "The coppers'll never get us". They hid under the bridge and one of their accomplices John "Old Froggy" Dillinger picked them up so they could knock off the St. Cloud Bank while the police were out chasing the train. Meanwhile the train proceeded to the meeting point with the police who thoroughly searched the room for the perps but left without finding them. The ladies complained to Amtrak because they forgot where the bank was so ended up with no cash.

See! It could have been their fault that they were not dropped off at their station - which of course is the real issue.

 

[TimePeace]

Great thread -

 

[tonys96]

Here is what I do not understand at all......

Why would anyone want to get off a train in (or around) St. Cloud, anyway? :giggle:

 

[AlanB]

I didn't fabricate anything. I've seen this type of situation happen first hand.

You've seen two senior ladies put off the train miles away from any station with nobody to meet them because they woke up the other passengers and scared a frail little conductor to within an inch of his life? That sounds like one heck of a story. I can't wait to hear the rest of it.

Once again being far too literal!

But I have seen people badger the heck out of a conductor because they either failed to get off at the correct stop or because they boarded to help someone else and didn't get off in time. I've seen them standing there screaming at the top of their lungs demanding that the conductor immediately stop the train and reverse it so that they can get off, instead of having to ride to the next stop and double back.

And I have witnessed one particularly irate passenger who after not getting their demands met by the conductor, proceeded to go and pull the emergency brake. She did get her wish to get off the train, and she did get a ride, but it wasn't back to her missed stop. It was to the police station.

 

[henryj]

Here is the quote from the Amtrak spokesman. I don't read any thing else into this. The crew just screwed up.

An Amtrak spokesman said the crew failed to follow the company's policy of notifying passengers of their stop; after 10 p.m., station announcements are not given on a PA system.

"It's our job to get them to their stop," said Marc Magliari, Amtrak spokesman. "It looks like it wasn't properly carried out. What the crew chose to do is not standard procedure."

If passengers miss their stop, the company's policy is to bring them to the next staffed station -- which in this case would have been Fargo, N.D. -- and then pay for a taxi or other transportation to get passengers back to their destination, Magliari said. Supervisors are following up with the employees who handled the situation, he added.

 

[AlanB]

Henry,

I most certainly agree that the crew screwed up! There is no question on that. Someone failed to make sure that they had left the room and then they compounded that mistake but not carrying them to Staples. That much is quite clear.

What is not clear is what prompted the crew to do what they did with regard to dropping them off at that road. We don't know if the crew didn't read their Blue book procedures. We don't know what those ladies were doing and/or saying at that hour, once they realized that they had missed their stop.

I'm sure that the crew will face discipline no matter what. The question I have, and have been trying to get across to some (not you), is what role did the women play in the outcome of their being deposited on that road? And what impact that might have on their discipline?

 

[saxman]

The crew change is completely irrelevant. It was the sleeping car attendant's responsibility to not only ensure the passengers were awake, but also to hold their hand as they step off the train. The conductor does a sweep along with the SA in coach, verifying seat checks. It's the SCA's responsibility that these lady's got off the train in St. Cloud. Period.

Now, letting them off was an issue for the conductor. An SCA can't stop the train - a conductor must. The situation, the judgement and the resulting action was poor. But this was the conductor's fault regardless of when or where he got on. Again, crew change is irrelevant.

Fault 1: SCA (or alternate who covered for sleep time) for not helping ladies physically off the train.

Fault 2: Ladies for not having situational awareness (having been downstairs ready to detrain when it stopped.

Fault 3: Conductor (again, doesn't matter if he was fresh or up against 8 hrs of duty) for letting them off without them knowing where they were.

Does the SCA have to be up for each person boarding the sleeping car, even in the middle of the night? Occasionally I've had my SCA up late but usually it's been the conductor who awoke me in my sleeper when I was getting off in the middle if the night. I'm not really sure the policy here, because I've had both happen. Either the SCA was up, or the conductor got me off or on when I have used a sleeper in the middle of the night.