Empire Builder discharges passengers in the middle of nowhere

[jphjaxfl]

The crew of the Amtrak Empire Builder thought they were doing their passengers a favor. Vivian Rhode, 75, and her niece Peggy Larson, 64, had missed their stop in St. Cloud, and the next station was about three hours away.
So at 1 a.m. March 28, the train made an unscheduled stop 2 miles north of St. Cloud. Rhode and Larson took their luggage and stepped into the windy, cold night.

"We were right smack on the railroad track, and away they went," Rhode said.

http://www.startribune.com/local/158316335.html

 

[RRUserious]

Because of my interest in Amtrak, my wife told me of a sad story where some passengers missed their station because it was during quiet hours. So, according to the story, the train stopped and left them in the countryside! Later, a manager said the "procedure" was to have them ride to the next regular stop and then catch a ride back to where they were supposed to get off.

I told my wife that on my ride on EB, there are places between MSP and Minot where people get off in complete darkness at a closed station. When I watched them alight, I was thinking "sure hope they are meeting someone". I have no idea in some of these places how they get to their final destination.

Anyway, upshot is that the passengers said they were finished with Amtrak. Understandable. I mean, it could be called partly their fault, but still. To let them off with nothing around. Who could have made such a decision. And what could they have been thinking? Would the Amtrak employee want to change places?

 

[George Harris]

Now, for the rest of the story . . . . . . . . .

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Now, for the rest of the story . . . . . . . . .

What sort of "rest of the story" are you expecting to come out that could explain everything away? Not even Amtrak appears to be disputing the fundamentals of the story.

 

[amamba]

So they were awake in their roomette and just sat there when they reached the stop? Why didnt they go down the stairs to find out what was going on?

 

[Anderson]

So they were awake in their roomette and just sat there when they reached the stop? Why didnt they go down the stairs to find out what was going on?

It seems that someone dropped the ball on notifying them of their actual stop. Notwithstanding my almost absurd familiarity with the approaches to RVR, I often am not going to know for sure if a stop is "my stop" or the train stopping short. Whether the blame falls with the SCA or conductor on this one (I've seen both cases; I think there's often an understanding among the OBS to try and let some of the SCAs get more than 2-3 hours of sleep by swapping duties, and I know that conductors have taken a hand in this on occasion as well).

Honestly, it seems that they weren't experienced with train travel, and if they were on the wrong side of the train...well, stranger things have happened than someone missing their stop.

 

[Ryan]

I'm not really sure what would possess you to get off of a train at night in "the middle of nowhere" without a cell phone and no way of contacting someone to pick you up.

 

[VentureForth]

I know that the SA's and the SCA's are both required to get their passengers off when the train stops. In this case, it is reported that the SCA told them their stop was approaching. Now, I know from experience that this notice can be given with up to 30 minutes notice (there was another thread about being told WAY too early and then the train was delayed). In any case, the passengers should have been ready to get off the train. There is one SCA per Superliner (maybe he has to accomodate more during the middle of the night), but shouldn't he have been aware of their departure when he was supposed to help them and their luggage off the train?

Allowing a coach passenger to miss their stop is one thing, but I understand that allowing a sleeping car passenger miss their stop is a firin' offense.

I'm not really sure what would possess you to get off of a train at night in "the middle of nowhere" without a cell phone and no way of contacting someone to pick you up.

Being only 2 miles out of the station, I suppose all involved were presuming that it was close enough to town to find. In this case, the conductor - the individual with the most familiarity of the area and the one who would know where they were if they called 911 to get a drunk off the train - should have called 911 for the ladies.

I'm sure they still got home way sooner than had they followed Amtrak policy, but if they didn't know where they were when they stopped, they should have refused to get off. Unless they were FORCED. dun dun duuuuuun......

 

[RRUserious]

Interesting to read the reactions here. Look, the management said what the train did was a violation of policy. How complicated is that? The passengers have no way of knowing the staff is doing something dumb and against company policy. If there was a working brain among the staff, they should have at LEAST said "this is not a good place to disembark. Please ride to our next stop where there will be shelter till you are able to return to your destination". Honestly, that takes minimal brains. Were the crew like zombies? However, I do hope readers realize this isn't in any way typical. Also if I were writing the story, I'd add in the detail that that leg of the trip is in darkness with many scheduled stops occurring between midnight and dawn. As exciting as the story may seem, it still is responsible journalism to let people unfamiliar with trains know the context.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

So they were awake in their roomette and just sat there when they reached the stop? Why didnt they go down the stairs to find out what was going on?

Because my trip last fall was my first LD (as an adult), even though my SCA said he'd be by to get us, my daughter and I went downstairs before our stop because it was dark and I had no idea how close we were to our stop. First we went to the top of the stairs and waited a few minutes, then we went downstairs. A few minutes later, my daughter heard someone knocking on a door upstairs and talking. Then the conductor and the SCA came downstairs. I felt a little bad for not waiting for them in our roomette.

I shouldn't have been too concerned since we were gettng off at PRO and SLC was only about an hour "up the road", though I didn't want my daughter & SIL to have to watch the train go by and us not get off.

 

[Montanan]

I saw this thread title and I thought, "Geez, Amtrak discharges passengers in the middle of nowhere every time it makes a scheduled station stop in Montana!" :lol:

 

[henryj]

Sounds to me like the whole train crew was brain dead. Government workers. If they were going to do something like that they may as well just backed up to the station rather than dumping two old ladies out on the track. The EB is always late anyway so what's the diff. Just an attempt to cover up their mistake. I hope it costs them their job. The OBS can't stop the train on his own.

 

[Ryan]

Government workers.

False.

The EB is always late anyway so what's the diff.

Also false.

Just an attempt to cover up their mistake.

Or an attempt to get the folks to their final destination a little bit sooner.

 

[saxman]

If the conductor wound have thought they should have just gone on to Staples, and had them catch the return train which would not have been a long wait. Bringing them all the way to Fargo would have been a long and expensive cab ride. Both Staples and Detroit Lakes have indoor waiting areas with restrooms, even though they are unstaffed.

Just sounds like a huge miscommunication to me as they probably shouldnt have been put on the side of the tracks. Also I believe, St. Cloud is a crew change point, so that probably didn't help in the communication of things.

 

[me_little_me]

So they were awake in their roomette and just sat there when they reached the stop? Why didnt they go down the stairs to find out what was going on?

Sorry, that doesn't hack it. Trains stop everywhere, not just at stations. We were on a Silver and the train stopped for a moment at a tri-rail station as we all stood there waiting for arrival at West Palm Beach. The car attendant opened the door, put out the step stool and was trying to get the luggage and passengers off when the conductor happened by and told her we were not at WPB. It could have been a disaster if the train started to move while this was going on.

The two ladies did the proper thing and waited to be told to get up and go to the door in preparation for exiting.

Now, I would have gotten up and headed for the doorway but I can take my own bags and I am more aggressive about things but the women did no wrong and the crew failed to follow policy.

Edit: It is true that it would probably have been for the best if the conductor had called for someone to pick them up and told them where to wait as well as stopping and dropping them off at the first road. That would have been helpful. He/she seemingly failed to think about what should be done.

 

[the_traveler]

If they were going to do something like that they may as well just backed up to the station

Do you know what is involved in backing up a train?

It's not just putting it in reverse and going backwards!

You have to contact the dispatcher to request permission to do a backup move (remember other trains use that same track also), then you must position the conductor at the rear door of the train to watch for any dangers and to tell the locomotive engineer when to sound the horn for any grade crossings or other reasons. And at night it's much harder to see obstacles then it is in the daytime, and the EB is not exactly a short train!

It's one thing to back up 10 feet at a station. It's totally different to back up 2 miles on a heavily used mainline!

 

[fairviewroad]

I'm not really sure what would possess you to get off of a train at night in "the middle of nowhere" without a cell phone and no way of contacting someone to pick you up.

Actually, according to the article, the women did have a phone. It was the man picking them up (the husband of one of the ladies) who did not

have a phone, hence they had no way of contacting him. Ultimately the husband borrowed someone else's cell phone and made

the connection.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

So they were awake in their roomette and just sat there when they reached the stop? Why didnt they go down the stairs to find out what was going on?

In my experience the train often stops one or more times before reaching the actual drop off point and the crew is usually anxious to get you off as soon as they can. So I can understand why two recently awoken senior citizens didn't go running up and down the stairs checking to see what was up. Presumably the SCA has to open the door, so why didn't they notice that not everyone had disembarked? The article also makes reference to yet another passenger who did not disembark as expected at the same stop, which leaves me wondering what happened.

I'm not really sure what would possess you to get off of a train at night in "the middle of nowhere" without a cell phone and no way of contacting someone to pick you up.

Apparently they thought they were closer to the station than they really were. Two miles of dragging luggage along the tracks would be nothing for you or me, but for a 75 year old woman that might not be such an easy task. According to the article they did have a cell phone but their ride did not. Or at least that was my understanding of the situation.

Interesting to read the reactions here. Look, the management said what the train did was a violation of policy. How complicated is that? The passengers have no way of knowing the staff is doing something dumb and against company policy.

When future passengers come here with their anxiety and concerns we tell them to relax and enjoy the ride. However, the moment anything goes seriously wrong we either shrug our shoulders or we simply blame the passenger. It's entirely possible that there is more to this story that what we have available to us, but based on what we have to go on so far this does not look as though the root cause is with the passengers. From my perspective, regardless of what happened after the fact, Amtrak staff should have ensured these two passengers made their stop before leaving the station.

If you're stuck having to choose between...

1. Continue traveling for another five or six hours (3 to the next station + 2 or 3 to get back again)

-OR-

2. Be left on the tracks miles away from the station with little or no infrastructure around you.

...then how has Amtrak not failed in their duties?

Do you know what is involved in backing up a train?

Is it as difficult as letting your passengers know that they've reached their station?

Also I believe, St. Cloud is a crew change point, so that probably didn't help in the communication of things.

If you're right then that is the most plausible explanation for where things started to deteriorate so far.

 

[Exiled in Express]

Just sounds like a huge miscommunication to me as they probably shouldnt have been put on the side of the tracks. Also I believe, St. Cloud is a crew change point, so that probably didn't help in the communication of things.

I read the account in the Strib and think this saxman identified the failure. Exiting conductor probably releived the SCA of duty and got distracted with outher tasks and the oncoming conductor did not realize the error until doing their headcount.

Unless they were in the PDX sleeper I think this would require a double spotting, I remember being in coach and looking out the window at the middle of an intersection for a good 10 minutes at frustrated traffic on one of my northern adventures.

EDIT: mistaken terminology. Multitasking is bad!

 

[saxman]

Except it wouldn't be the OBS or SCA changing at St. Cloud. It would just be the operating crew. Who knows if thor SCA was sleeping at this point? We don't know. Perhaps the conductor awoke them first and either forgot or thought they were already off the train, then they go on their way. The next crew gets on and finds these ladies still there. And puts them off in the ballast. I don't think we'll ever know the whole story. And now I'm for certain SCD is a crew change point.

 

[amamba]

I guess my only experience on the LD trains has been endpoint to endpoint travel so I am not familiar with the standard protocol. But on the NEC everyone is expected to be aware of their own destination and get themselves off the train, which is where I am coming from. If I am not standing at the door when we arrive at PVD, I will probably miss the stop. The only person to blame for that is myself.

 

[henryj]

If they were going to do something like that they may as well just backed up to the station

Do you know what is involved in backing up a train?

It's not just putting it in reverse and going backwards!

You have to contact the dispatcher to request permission to do a backup move (remember other trains use that same track also), then you must position the conductor at the rear door of the train to watch for any dangers and to tell the locomotive engineer when to sound the horn for any grade crossings or other reasons. And at night it's much harder to see obstacles then it is in the daytime, and the EB is not exactly a short train!

It's one thing to back up 10 feet at a station. It's totally different to back up 2 miles on a heavily used mainline!

Thanks for the 'idiot treatment', but I am not your idiot. Trains miss stations all the time and have to back up. I was on one where the Conductor missed his orders and had to back up to get them. The train only missed the station by a couple of miles. But you have to think like a union train worker. If they called the dispatcher then the jig was up and everyone would know they made a mistake. If the went on to the next station and had Amtrak get the ladies a cab then everyone knows they made a mistake. So they just dumped them off in the dirt thinking they had covered up their screw up. But lucky for us these ladies complained and went to the press. Now lets hope these brain dead unionites get what they deserve. Every T&E employee knew what was going on, even the crew in the engine and of course the stupid car attendant that started it all. But union guys stick together so I am sure they all got together and concocted some story to justify their behavior. I have been on Amtrak trains where the attendant couldn't even figure out how to lower and lock the beds, so he stuffed rolls of toilet paper between the bed and the wall to hold it in place. When this idiot finally left I reached under the bed and released the lock and removed the toilet paper. There are plenty of good people out there looking for work. Amtrak needs to get rid of idiots like these and hire someone that cares.

 

[Tumbleweed]

Certainly the passengers carry most of the responsibility for realizing where there stop is, but I'll bet AMTRAK eats the liability after pulling a stunt like that....

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I guess my only experience on the LD trains has been endpoint to endpoint travel so I am not familiar with the standard protocol. But on the NEC everyone is expected to be aware of their own destination and get themselves off the train, which is where I am coming from. If I am not standing at the door when we arrive at PVD, I will probably miss the stop. The only person to blame for that is myself.

Please tell me you did not just compare this situation to missing a stop on the NEC. :wacko:

Certainly the passengers carry most of the responsibility for realizing where there stop is, but I'll bet AMTRAK eats the liability after pulling a stunt like that....

I might be more inclined to agree with you if it was daylight outside or the public address system was in use, but in the middle of the night this sort of thing should absolutely be under the watch of the staff. Even if you knock on someone's compartment they may not hear you or they may drift off to sleep again. I've had trains take a half hour from the first preliminary stop until the staff allows the first passenger off the train and waiting in the vestibule on a cold and windy night doesn't sound that fun to me. If even something as basic as getting off at the right station in the middle of the night is the responsibility of the customer then what exactly is the purpose of the SCA at that point?

 

[George Harris]

Now, for the rest of the story . . . . . . . . .

What sort of "rest of the story" are you expecting to come out that could explain everything away? Not even Amtrak appears to be disputing the fundamentals of the story.

Not expecting an "explain everything away," but do suspect that like most "news" articles there is more left out than said.