Will dining cars resume 12/15/20?/Flexible dining extended to May 2021?

[Palmetto]

Planes only have a bathroom down the hall. That doesn't stop people from jumping up to use it the second the Seatbelts lights go off.

I've found that some people don't wait even that long.

 

[railiner]

I've found that some people don't wait even that long.

Agreed...as soon as that "10,000 feet ding" has sounded, some jump up...but then, so do the flight attendants, to begin their cabin service...

 

[jiml]

Agreed...as soon as that "10,000 feet ding" has sounded, some jump up...but then, so do the flight attendants, to begin their cabin service...

It's more of a problem at the back of the plane where both the carts and main bathrooms are. In the front cabin, frequent flyers know that the "ding" either means "hit the head" or get the laptop out.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

Yes there are public restrooms in the sleeping cars on VIA. The Roomettes have not been rebuilt, they have the standard toilet in the room that is covered by the bed at night. I always used the public restroom and did not use the in room toilet when I took VIA.

I was not referring to public toilets in addition to in-room toilets, rather to Roomettes w/o toilets. I recall in pre Amtrak days sleepers had a public toilet at the end of the hall. It's the ABSENCE of an in-room toilet that is the issue.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

Before arriving at the Viewliner II Roomette design, Amtrak claims to have dose a customer survey on the matter of Commodes in Roomettes and it came out significantly opposed to having the Commodes in the room. I don;t know whether the details of the survey but it was mentioned by several people who many of us otherwise trust. I feel confident that the decision was not made lightly. But who knows?

Yes, who knows. I was never asked. Were you?

 

[Ferroequinologist]

The problem with making bedrooms larger is that in means fewer (and thus more expensive) rooms per sleeping car. If you want Amtrak to have an equivalent to VIA's Prestige class on a few of the Western LDs that's fine, but you need more affordable options as well. Not everyone wants a land cruise; some of us just want a comfortable place to sleep traveling overnight.

Yes, a modern version of the Slumbercoach (w/o the toilets) would be an ideal intermediate option between seated coached and sleepers.

Adequate subsidies should reduce fares. Let's see how pro passenger train the Biden administration is. The current Covid-19 relief bill before President Trump includes funding for two new museums (Latinx and women), $10 mil for gender programs for Pakistan, $500 mil for Jordanian defense spending, $500 mil for Israeli Cooperative Programs, etc. Maybe they can come up with a little to help bring US passenger trains up-to-date and make them affordable for the US taxpayers who are funding this spending.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

Amen! And... two years ago after taking a transcon journey to Maine I came down with the flu... I had actually complained about dirty conditions in sleeper accommodations and lounge areas. And I always complain about lack of fresh air. What's the big deal about needing 'sealed' ventilation systems? May European trains have windows that open a few inches that don't allow careless people to throw things out the window or lean out.

So... if they have 'flex dining,' why can't they have 'flex windows' that open just a crack???

Of course they can but somehow there is an inflexible mindset here that windows must be perpetually sealed, not even one or two inches can be open. As for hygiene, anyone who has stayed in good hotels during this health crisis knows that extensive measures are being taken to assure hygienic conditions. I posed the question on this forum: do attendants wear fresh gloves when they make up beds, do they carefully clean rooms, including in-room toilets and bathrooms after passengers have detrained and others have entered the same room? I'd like to see Amtrak's instruction manual for this. I suspect Pullman Company rules were stricter without a pandemic to worry about.

 

[railiner]

Have you looked at the contents of the Covid-19 relief funding? See my comments elsewhere. If everything should be self funding, why are we spending $10 mil for gender studies in Pakistan, $500 to fund the Jordanian military etc etc. Give me a break.

Good question...I agree with you on this. "Charity begins at home...."

 

[railiner]

As far as windows opening...I am not sure that is a good idea, especially for high speed trains. And for any trains, open windows would have some impact on the HVAC system. I think it would be much better if they simply reduced the amount of recirculated air those systems use, and increase the percentage of fresh air taken in by those systems.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

Good question...I agree with you on this. "Charity begins at home...."

I don't know why you think Amtrak should be expected to pay for itself unless you follow a strict Libertarian point of view. What is really self-sufficient? There are tax breaks all over the place, subsidies direct and indirect, government intervention everywhere - and this is under normal conditions. One more aspect of the Covid relief bill: $15 billion for Broadway, small music venues and movie theatres. I guess more performance of Cats takes priority over a decent national rail system?

 

[Ferroequinologist]

As far as windows opening...I am not sure that is a good idea, especially for high speed trains. And for any trains, open windows would have some impact on the HVAC system. I think it would be much better if they simply reduced the amount of recirculated air those systems use, and increase the percentage of fresh air taken in by those systems.

We're talking about a few inches at the top of windows in private room sleepers, not open coaches.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

Yup. Budd "sections" (upper and lower berths) have communal bathrooms, whereas roomettes and bedrooms are ensuite.

Yes, right. These are quaint remnants of another age - and they were replaced when trains upgraded to private room sleepers for which passengers were grateful. I don't know why VIA continues these, maybe because they can't afford new equipment? For nostalgic reasons? Do you propose replacing Superliners with section cars?

 

[Trogdor]

We're talking about a few inches at the top of windows in private room sleepers, not open coaches.

And when someone forgets to close the window when the train goes through Moffat Tunnel and passengers get asphyxiated from diesel exhaust, then what?

 

[jis]

Yes, who knows. I was never asked. Were you?

Yes. And my feedback was get the Commode out of the Roomette.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

What they have in other countries is irrelevant. Perhaps a survey should/could be taken in the US to see if in-room toilet facilities is a desire or not. It would be best if they were "private" instead of open to the room as they are in roomettes.

How would it be if all new rolling stock was built in the viewliner style (single level) so it could be used on all trackage instead of usable in certain areas.

By making the rooms larger (bedroom style) might make people much more comfortable post COVID as would windows that could be partially opened.

Some of us may have to yield what we think/like/or think to do what would increase ridership to a point where Congress and many others would agree that rail is a feasible venture and provide the needed financial backing/funding to bring it back to something think of "first" instead of a "last resort" or "Oh, I didn't know they were still trains" mentality like there is now.

If that means funding fares, so be it. If it means removing dining in favor of people bringing their own food, so be it. If it requires adding toilets and refrigerators and microwaves to all rooms (or sleeper cars) so be it.

It may mean that Amtrak does NOT make a profit any more than the Interstate highway system does ... but if it brings rail travel back to the mainstream, wouldn't it be worth the added expense?

I don't think long haul travel can be mainstreamed until compartments are made larger and include private bathrooms. Standards in the US are a lot higher than those of other countries, including many European countries where there are still a lot of hotels with bathrooms down the hall. Railfans may put up with the inconveniences of today's status quo but most people will expect more. Sorry to say it but a lot of today's population really don't care about traditional dining and many seem uncomfortable with sharing tables. It may be that improving cafe car selections and improving in- room dining could be the solution with focus on more comfortable equipment and more hygienic conditions. Lounge cars can be designed more like hotel lobbies or cocktail lounges with a few group seating areas that allow people to mix when they want to. This would still allow for some socializing. Covid is changing the world. It's affecting home design, where people live and how they live. These changes are likely to be permanent. Amtrak needs to come to terms with this.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

And some of us think Amtrak, since it is owned by the Gov't, should be funded like other gov't owned things are ... funded accordingly. That would allow for lower consumer fares if you are not trying to make a profit from a gov't operated venture - the same way they do not expect the Interstate Highway system to make a profit.

And when someone forgets to close the window when the train goes through Moffat Tunnel and passengers get asphyxiated from diesel exhaust, then what?

Would that really happen? What did people do before air conditioning? You are probably right however that some environmental law would prevent opening windows an inch. But then what happens when AC breaks down. Don't some passengers get sick?

 

[joelkfla]

Yes, right. These are quaint remnants of another age - and they were replaced when trains upgraded to private room sleepers for which passengers were grateful. I don't know why VIA continues these, maybe because they can't afford new equipment? For nostalgic reasons? Do you propose replacing Superliners with section cars?

If you ever checked the last-minute deals on Canadian fares, there were usually some berths available. But even if they don't sell out, some were occupied on my trip. Why spend to take them out as long as they're pulling in fares?

 

[joelkfla]

And when someone forgets to close the window when the train goes through Moffat Tunnel and passengers get asphyxiated from diesel exhaust, then what?

It might stink up the car for a little while, but an efficient HVAC system with suitable outside air intake should clear it out pretty quickly. The poor soul who left the window open would just have to deal with it in their own compartment a while longer.

Do the many sleepers with opening windows in other countries not travel though tunnels?

BTW, does the crew on Superliners switch the HVAC to full recirculate when they pass through Moffat currently?

 

[tricia]

Yes, right. These are quaint remnants of another age - and they were replaced when trains upgraded to private room sleepers for which passengers were grateful. I don't know why VIA continues these, maybe because they can't afford new equipment? For nostalgic reasons? Do you propose replacing Superliners with section cars?

VIA continues selling berths because passengers keep buying them. They're a lower-cost, lie-flat option.

 

[20th Century Rider]

the same way they do not expect the Interstate Highway system to make a profit.

As so many of us have stated... Amtrak is a government service for the citizens just as the interstate is. The benefits for the environment and traffic congestion relief... and overall quality of life in America... are incalculable. Amtrak is an American treasure as well... and once it's allowed to fade away... it'll be gone. We as taxpayers should insist that some of the money we are sending to the government be spent on a national travel necessity and should be a spending priority!

 

[NS VIA Fan]

VIA continues selling berths because passengers keep buying them. They're a lower-cost, lie-flat option.

Yes......they are still popular here! There's only 3 Sections in each Chateau or Manor car with 3 lower berths and 3 uppers for a total occupancy of 6 people. The space occupied by the fourth section was converted to a public shower. You can see that here on the right (where the ladders to the uppers are stored)........

 

[railiner]

It might stink up the car for a little while, but an efficient HVAC system with suitable outside air intake should clear it out pretty quickly. The poor soul who left the window open would just have to deal with it in their own compartment a while longer.

Do the many sleepers with opening windows in other countries not travel though tunnels?

BTW, does the crew on Superliners switch the HVAC to full recirculate when they pass through Moffat currently?

IIRC, before the CZ enters the Moffat, they shut down the A/C system, and also request passenger's not pass between cars during the ten minute period....

 

[toddinde]

I really wish they'd remove the "free food" and reduce sleeper fares. This was a bad concept from the start.

It’s not a bad idea with the way the diners were operated because it created more certainty in how much food to stock. I would be in favor of a new dining car concept that provided service from say 6:00 am to 10:00 pm and offered a variety of options from full meals to snacks. In that scenario, the diner would serve all passengers and could charge all passengers, though including meals for first class is not a bad idea.

 

[toddinde]

Yes......they are still popular here! There's only 3 Sections in each Chateau or Manor car with 3 lower berths and 3 uppers for a total occupancy of 6 people. The space occupied by the fourth section was converted to a public shower. You can see that here on the right (where the ladders to the uppers are stored)........

They’re quite ingenious really, and a nice way to travel. An Amtrak roomette is really just an enclosed section.

 

[railiner]

I don't know why you think Amtrak should be expected to pay for itself unless you follow a strict Libertarian point of view. What is really self-sufficient? There are tax breaks all over the place, subsidies direct and indirect, government intervention everywhere - and this is under normal conditions

I did say that I support subsidy for Amtrak infrastructure, but not operating expenses, to be on par with other modes. Amtrak's owner collects taxes. Other modes pay taxes. A strict Libertarian would not support even paying for its infrastructure....