20th Century Limited vs. Lake Shore Limited

[NapTown Jim]

I'm wondering if there's any old timers here that remember the glory days of NY Central's 20th Century Limted or others who have access to time tables of that famous train. How frequently did it run between Chicago & New York? Did it run only once each way or were there more than one departure per day? Last time I rode the LSL it was pretty full, and I see here that it seems to usually be full. I'm curious if there mmight actually be enough demand for Amtrak to add a second train on this route at a different time assuming they have the equipment to run it.

 

[MrFSS]

I'm wondering if there's any old timers here that remember the glory days of NY Central's 20th Century Limited or others who have access to time tables of that famous train. How frequently did it run between Chicago & New York? Did it run only once each way or were there more than one departure per day? Last time I rode the LSL it was pretty full, and I see here that it seems to usually be full. I'm curious if there might actually be enough demand for Amtrak to add a second train on this route at a different time assuming they have the equipment to run it.

Here are some links that may help:

20th Century Limited

20th Century Rail Club

 

[the_traveler]

I'm not an "old timer"! (Please - I'm only 47! ) But I did live in upstate NY during the 60's.

Sadly, I did not get to ride the 20th Century. As I recall, that was the luxury express, that did run once per day, but there were other "locals" that ran that route also.

I don't think Amtrak has extra equipment to run another train on that route - especially single level cars! (They don't even have enough extra sleepers to run them on #66/67!)

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I'm wondering if there's any old timers here that remember the glory days of NY Central's 20th Century Limted or others who have access to time tables of that famous train. How frequently did it run between Chicago & New York? Did it run only once each way or were there more than one departure per day? Last time I rode the LSL it was pretty full, and I see here that it seems to usually be full. I'm curious if there mmight actually be enough demand for Amtrak to add a second train on this route at a different time assuming they have the equipment to run it.

I think I remember that it ran every night except Saturday. This would (if true) be because it was heavily oriented to the business traveler, not the vacationer. This in the days when people worked downtown,boarded the train at a down town station, ate dinner, slept, ate breakfast on the train got to their destination next morning. Came back that afternoon the same way.

The Century's chief competitor was the Broadway Limited, of the former Pennsylvania Railroad. the Broadway did run for several years on into the Amtrak era.

On each railroad, there were maybe four or five other trains all of them slower than the Century or the Broadway. The "next best" train on the NYC to the Century was the Commodore Vanderbiltt. Pennsy's next best would have been the General. Names largely forgotten today since so much attention went to the "stars".

There is much lore to be found about either train. Entire books have been written about each one.

Oh, earlier when I spoke of so many business people- riding it --there was another group--actors and actresses. They rode the Century a lot.

Both the Century and the Broadway were all pullman (i.e. sleeping cars) most of their lvies, but each got coaches later. Even slumbercoaches, maybe called sleeper coaches.

NYC had two routes to NYC from CHI. One was the LSL route (or very close to it, if not exactly) , the other went up closer to Canada, don't remember exactly.

While there was only one scheduled Century per day, sometimes back then trains ran in more than one section. There are classic shots fo the Century runnng in up to EIGHT sections.

 

[jphjaxfl]

My Dad worked for the New York Central in the midwest so I did ride the 20th Century LTD as a child in the 1950s. It was an "all pullman" train until 1957 when coaches were added. After leaving Albany, it only made operating stops(no passengers discharged or boarded) until Gary, Indiana. There was an extra fare for the 20th Century LTD and that was refunded if the train was late. It left New York about 6PM and arrived in Chicago at 9:00AM and Chicago around 5PM and arrived in New York around 8:45AM. It carried a Railway Post Office car for time sensative overnight mail between the two cities. The NYC had at least 6 other through New York-Chicago trains in the 1950s plus other trains that traveled just part of the route. The NYC main line had 4 main tracks from New York to Chicago. Even other passengers trains had to give right of way to the 20th Century LTD. The service on board was excellant too. The most experienced Pullman employees were assigned to trains like the 20th Century LTD. Many of the business customers were regular travelers so they were well known to the staff. When airlines started to offer jet service between New York and Chicago via 707s and DC8s, the business travelers migrated from trains to planes. Trains like the 20th Century LTD will never make a comeback.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

A train with a stop somewhere between South Bend and Chicago might be a nice thing to have. (Yes, there's the South Shore Line, but it doesn't run from the same stations as the Lake Shore Limited in the cities where they have stops in common, and the South Shore Line's schedule did not seem especially well coordinated with the Lake Shore Limited's schedule when I was looking at it several months ago.)

I'm not sure when exactly a second daily run would be scheduled. In an ideal world, the Boston, Albany, and Chicago stops might all happen between 6:00 AM and midnight. (NYP happens to be open all night.)

Westbound, a train 12 hours off from the current schedule like that would sort of work out, but if the cars from Chicago are going to continue to not go all the way through to Boston, you may not want to have sleeper passengers having to change trains at 6:00 AM and being unable to get sleepers from Boston. If the new train was six hours later than the current train, then the Albany departure would be around 1:00 AM, which again seems poor for the convenience of sleeper passengers if there aren't Boston to Chicago cars. If the new train departs six hours before the current train, you get into Chicago around 4:00 AM.

That said, a traveler from Boston going to Buffalo-Depew, Erie, or Cleveland, for example, would be happier with a train that started six hours earlier.

And an eastbound Chicago to Boston trip six hours earlier than the current schedule is something I'd probably prefer to the current schedule.

I wonder if it would make sense to have several trains that start around 6:00 AM at various points on the route, make more local stops, and be scheduled to reach the end of their routes at 10:00 PM (so that if they run longer than expected, they still have a good chance of reaching their destination by midnight).

Does the Boston to Chicago route have any height restrictions that would prevent the use of Superliners on the non-stub train if the stub train were to become the New York City train instead of the Boston train?

Regarding the rolling stock, it'll probably take at least three years for Amtrak to get more at this point to be able to add trains. Writing to your Congresspeople can't hurt anything there.

 

[NapTown Jim]

My Dad worked for the New York Central in the midwest ....

Where? My G-Grandpa was an engineer for the NYC. He drove trains between Elkhart and Toledo and Elkhart and Chicago. He retired in 1954 I think.

 

[jphjaxfl]

My Dad worked for the New York Central in the midwest ....

[Where? ] My Dad was a Passenger and Freight agent. He retired in Peoria on the P&E division of the NYC and had also worked in Chicago, St. Louis and Buffalo. His later years were all on the Big Four divisions of the NYC of which the P&E was part.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Some more thoughts about the Century.

I remember some of the old stories of eccentric passengers, I remember one of a lady who brought her own sheets on the train! Those provided by the Century were not to her standards!

I remember the Century and the Broadway used to sometimes race each other as they came together out of their separate stations in Chicago. They went side by side for a few miles and one would eventually outpace the other. The passengers sat in the rear-end observation watching the progress of the race. It was a traditon for each train.

I remember vaguely at one time there was a Boston section of the Century. My memory is extremely foggy about this....hopefully someone can help out. I don't think it lasted very long or worked very well. Probably goes back prior to the "streamline era."

Something else I remember which did not apply to the Century exclusively, but to all NYC trains coming from the Albany direction. They had to change from steam(in the old days) to an electic engine at Harmon to run under the city into Grand Central. I don't suppose the diesels had to be replaced by electric. I suppose this is s the same place listed as "Croton-Harmon" in the timetable today.

These were rather small electric engines, not at all like the better known Pennsy GG1's from NYC to WAS .

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The Lake Shore is a somewhat neglected train these days, what with losing its diner and all. I personally think a "crack" train between NYP and CHI running 5:30PM-8:30AM would be a viable proposition, if someone was willing to lose money for several years until it gained popularity.

 

[had8ley]

Some more thoughts about the Century.
I remember vaguely at one time there was a Boston section of the Century. My memory is extremely foggy about this....hopefully someone can help out. I don't think it lasted very long or worked very well. Probably goes back prior to the "streamline era."

Something else I remember which did not apply to the Century exclusively, but to all NYC trains coming from the Albany direction. They had to change from steam(in the old days) to an electic engine at Harmon to run under the city into Grand Central. I don't suppose the diesels had to be replaced by electric. I suppose this is s the same place listed as "Croton-Harmon" in the timetable today.

These were rather small electric engines, not at all like the better known Pennsy GG1's from NYC to WAS .

First of all all diesel power HAD to be taken off at "Harmon" as it was called in the '50's and '60's. Croton was basically a storage yard/origination point a couple of miles upriver from Harmon for M/U equipment. The City of New York banned steam, then diesel in the Park Avenue tunnel because of the fumes put off by these engines. I have the September 27th, 1953 NYC TT sitting on my desk. It cards the Commodore-Vanderbilt leaving GCT at 5:30 P.M. and the 20th Century as leaving at 6 P.M. They arrived a half hour apart in Chicago at 8:30 and 9 a.m. respectively. In later years the 20th Century was actually called the 20th Century Ltd. - Cornelius Vanderbilt probably because they combined the two trains account steadily declining ridership. There was even an ADVANCED (totally separate train) Commodore Vanderbilt that left GCT at 3:30 p.m. and arrived in Chicago at 7:30 the next morning.

In 1953, the 20th Century actually carried a 4 comp. 4 dbr., 2 drawing room car for Los Angeles that was switched onto Santa Fe #19 in Chicago. The Lake Shore Limited carried a ten and six sleeper (from GCT) for San Francisco that was switched to the C.B&Q, D.&R. Grande and W.P.

All of the above trains ran seven days a week except around the major holidays according to the timetable for that year.

 

[NapTown Jim]

Thanks for the very informative replies! I wish we could go back to those golden years of passenger rail travel again. Maybe someday we will.

Apart from the equipment problem Amtrak has, I also wonder if there might be a scheduling problem with the host railroad (CSX?) that offers limited windows of opportunity for Amtrak to run in-between the freight trains.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Technically, Amtrak can run trains where ever, whether the railroad likes it or not. Or atleast, that used to be the case. Whether the railroad would treat them properly is a different story.

 

[the_traveler]

Does the Boston to Chicago route have any height restrictions that would prevent the use of Superliners on the non-stub train if the stub train were to become the New York City train instead of the Boston train?

I don't believe so. A few years back (before they electricfied the line north of NHV), they ran a few Superliner cars to a rededication of the KIN station. I assume they came via ALB and BOS. (I'm certain that they did not come via NYP! )

But if they did run it with Superliner equipment, that would mean that the NYP bound pax would have to change in ALB!

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Or they could broaden the use of transition cars to include creating trains with both kinds of equipment, like the old Super Cheif / Southwest Limited did.

 

[George Harris]

NYC had two routes to NYC from CHI. One was the LSL route (or very close to it, if not exactly) , the other went up closer to Canada, don't remember exactly.

Bill, the other route was not just close to Canada, but in it. It crossed into Canada at Niagra Falls and came back into the US at Detroit. West of Detroit it went across southen Michigan on the same route currently used by Amtrak (I think). The 20th Century and other trains route was along the south shore of Lake Erie across Pennsylvania and Ohio, so there was to place to go to the north and remain in the US.

 

[had8ley]

NYC had two routes to NYC from CHI. One was the LSL route (or very close to it, if not exactly) , the other went up closer to Canada, don't remember exactly.

Bill, the other route was not just close to Canada, but in it. It crossed into Canada at Niagra Falls and came back into the US at Detroit. West of Detroit it went across southen Michigan on the same route currently used by Amtrak (I think). The 20th Century and other trains route was along the south shore of Lake Erie across Pennsylvania and Ohio, so there was to place to go to the north and remain in the US.

The '53 NYC TT shows the Canadian link going through Welland, St. Thomas, Ridgetown, Essex to Windsor and across the river back to the states in Detroit.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

NYC had two routes to NYC from CHI. One was the LSL route (or very close to it, if not exactly) , the other went up closer to Canada, don't remember exactly.

Bill, the other route was not just close to Canada, but in it. It crossed into Canada at Niagra Falls and came back into the US at Detroit. West of Detroit it went across southen Michigan on the same route currently used by Amtrak (I think). The 20th Century and other trains route was along the south shore of Lake Erie across Pennsylvania and Ohio, so there was to place to go to the north and remain in the US.

The '53 NYC TT shows the Canadian link going through Welland, St. Thomas, Ridgetown, Essex to Windsor and across the river back to the states in Detroit.

Did passengers have to go through customs (twice) in this case? Wasn't there some sort of waiver? What a nightmare that would have been.

 

[MrFSS]

NYC had two routes to NYC from CHI. One was the LSL route (or very close to it, if not exactly) , the other went up closer to Canada, don't remember exactly.

Bill, the other route was not just close to Canada, but in it. It crossed into Canada at Niagara Falls and came back into the US at Detroit. West of Detroit it went across southern Michigan on the same route currently used by Amtrak (I think). The 20th Century and other trains route was along the south shore of Lake Erie across Pennsylvania and Ohio, so there was to place to go to the north and remain in the US.

The '53 NYC TT shows the Canadian link going through Welland, St. Thomas, Ridgetown, Essex to Windsor and across the river back to the states in Detroit.

Did passengers have to go through customs (twice) in this case? Wasn't there some sort of waiver? What a nightmare that would have been.

Bill - as I understand it, there were no stops in Canada and they said many times the passengers didn't even know they had gone through Canada on the trip. So, no customs problems. But, that was way before 9/11.

 

[had8ley]

NYC had two routes to NYC from CHI. One was the LSL route (or very close to it, if not exactly) , the other went up closer to Canada, don't remember exactly.

Bill, the other route was not just close to Canada, but in it. It crossed into Canada at Niagara Falls and came back into the US at Detroit. West of Detroit it went across southern Michigan on the same route currently used by Amtrak (I think). The 20th Century and other trains route was along the south shore of Lake Erie across Pennsylvania and Ohio, so there was to place to go to the north and remain in the US.

The '53 NYC TT shows the Canadian link going through Welland, St. Thomas, Ridgetown, Essex to Windsor and across the river back to the states in Detroit.

Did passengers have to go through customs (twice) in this case? Wasn't there some sort of waiver? What a nightmare that would have been.

Bill - as I understand it, there were no stops in Canada and they said many times the passengers didn't even know they had gone through Canada on the trip. So, no customs problems. But, that was way before 9/11.

The NYC TT of '53 shows #17 stopping in St. Thomas and Windsor with #335 and #51 (the Empire State Express) making numerous stops at stations like Welland, Hagersville, Waterford, Ridgetown and Windsor before crossing the border back into the states.

 

[MrFSS]

The NYC TT of '53 shows #17 stopping in St. Thomas and Windsor with #335 and #51 (the Empire State Express) making numerous stops at stations like Welland, Hagersville, Waterford, Ridgetown and Windsor before crossing the border back into the states.

WOW - guess I heard wrong - thought I had read no stops somewhere in another thread months ago. I guess customs wasn't the concern it is today.

 

[AlanB]

The NYC TT of '53 shows #17 stopping in St. Thomas and Windsor with #335 and #51 (the Empire State Express) making numerous stops at stations like Welland, Hagersville, Waterford, Ridgetown and Windsor before crossing the border back into the states.

WOW - guess I heard wrong - thought I had read no stops somewhere in another thread months ago. I guess customs wasn't the concern it is today.

Maybe you're confusing this train with a thread on the train that Amtrak was going to start under the Network Growth plan issued under George Warrington. That train was going to operate non-stop through Canada, but it never turned a wheel.

 

[had8ley]

I'm just glad we have Alan to watch our backs !!!

 

[MrFSS]

The NYC TT of '53 shows #17 stopping in St. Thomas and Windsor with #335 and #51 (the Empire State Express) making numerous stops at stations like Welland, Hagersville, Waterford, Ridgetown and Windsor before crossing the border back into the states.

WOW - guess I heard wrong - thought I had read no stops somewhere in another thread months ago. I guess customs wasn't the concern it is today.

Maybe you're confusing this train with a thread on the train that Amtrak was going to start under the Network Growth plan issued under George Warrington. That train was going to operate non-stop through Canada, but it never turned a wheel.

Yep - that's what it was. Not fun getting old and not remembering all these things!

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I'm just glad we have Alan to watch our backs !!!

I, too, am glad we have Alan to watch our backs.

But that brings us back to my original question. Did passengers in that kind of unique situation have to go through customs, and twice at that, since you would leave the U.S.(at least if you were traveling from CHI to NYC) and then return to it not long thereafter.

Hadley, since I am at work(no timetables) rather than at home ( no computer) does your TT show any reference mark, etc to clarify this?