20th Century Limited vs. Lake Shore Limited

[George Harris]

I was quoting the cross-Canada route from an obviously faulty memory. However, when we go way back to the 1940's-50's time frame crossing between the US and Canada was a very casual thing.

 

[had8ley]

I'm just glad we have Alan to watch our backs !!!

I, too, am glad we have Alan to watch our backs.

But that brings us back to my original question. Did passengers in that kind of unique situation have to go through customs, and twice at that, since you would leave the U.S.(at least if you were traveling from CHI to NYC) and then return to it not long thereafter.

Hadley, since I am at work(no timetables) rather than at home ( no computer) does your TT show any reference mark, etc to clarify this?

Bill;

I've read through the entire '53 NYC TT twice. I've seen everything from REA Express ads to telephone service on the 20th Century Ltd. (at stations only) but no where can I find any reference to crossing into or back from Canada. The General Information has nothing about it at all. I guess it was a sign of the times. I do remember crossing by car numerous times in the 50's and 60's and the most we were ever asked was our place of birth. I'm old enough to remember a New Haven diner ad that encouraged pax to buy a package tour of NYC in order to "have a gay old time." I'm positive the respondents to this ad today would be quite different than those of the late '50's.

Jay

 

[the_traveler]

But that brings us back to my original question. Did passengers in that kind of unique situation have to go through customs, and twice at that, since you would leave the U.S.(at least if you were traveling from CHI to NYC) and then return to it not long thereafter.

I thought that I remembered reading that those Canadian stops had passengers seated in separate cars, and only those passengers seated in those cars had to clear customs. If you were a through passenger (from US to US), you did not have to clear customs, and may not have even known you left the US!

 

[Guest_Yerry_*]

A car was assigned as the "border" between through passengers and passengers needing customs work. the car door was solidly locked and sealed. Crew could get through in an emergency, but it had to have been a pretty serious emergency. Once back in he US, the door was unlocked.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

What kind of car was that?

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

But if they did run it with Superliner equipment, that would mean that the NYP bound pax would have to change in ALB!

Yeah, so? Given that the BOS passengers have been changing trains in ALB for the last few years, why couldn't the NYP passengers change at ALB if the through train went to Boston?

This might also remove the need to swap between a dual mode diesel and a P42 at ALB, which the Amtrak bean counters might like, and which might make the train slightly faster.

And maybe if the LSL switched to Superliner sleepers that ran through to Boston, all of the LSL Viewliners could be reassigned to the Twilight Shoreliner.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The percentage of riders BOS to NYP would probably make a difference.

 

[AlanB]

And maybe if the LSL switched to Superliner sleepers that ran through to Boston, all of the LSL Viewliners could be reassigned to the Twilight Shoreliner.

The Shoreliner doesn't need 9 Viewliners to cover it's run.

 

[AlanB]

The percentage of riders BOS to NYP would probably make a difference.

Agreed, ridership would plunge if they ran it only to Boston and forced NY pax to transfer. Even when the Boston side ran through, it's ridership was probably 1/4th of what the NYP ridership was.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I suspect the answer is no, because they'd be using bi-levels by now if it was yes, but is Grand Central Terminal Superliner capable?

 

[AlanB]

I suspect the answer is no, because they'd be using bi-levels by now if it was yes, but is Grand Central Terminal Superliner capable?

Correct. Pretty much anything taller than a P32 will find it's roof sheared off in the Park Avenue tunnels.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

I suspect the answer is no, because they'd be using bi-levels by now if it was yes, but is Grand Central Terminal Superliner capable?

Correct. Pretty much anything taller than a P32 will find it's roof sheared off in the Park Avenue tunnels.

your talking about the p-32 AC/DM not the P32 dash-8 right

 

[AlanB]

I suspect the answer is no, because they'd be using bi-levels by now if it was yes, but is Grand Central Terminal Superliner capable?

Correct. Pretty much anything taller than a P32 will find it's roof sheared off in the Park Avenue tunnels.

your talking about the p-32 AC/DM not the P32 dash-8 right

Yes, the AC-DM.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

What ever possessed Amtrak to buy the P32-8 loco? Isn't it a freight motor?

 

[amtrakwolverine]

What ever possessed Amtrak to buy the P32-8 loco? Isn't it a freight motor?

amtrak uses them for switching but they are equipped with HEP and can be substituted for amtraks main loco the p-42

see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GE_Dash_8-32BWH

 

[jackal]

I've often wondered why the Dash 8s were relegated to switching duty, too. I've read that Amcrews don't like them (they ride noisy and rough, I guess). I don't think they were ordered for switching duty. However, they're the only Amtrak engines I know of that are hood units and have outside decks for switching crews to work on, so I suppose they do the duty well.

I'm not familiar with the Dash 8 series, but I do know that switching with the SD70MACs on the Alaska Railroad was a pain, as they were really slow to load and respond to the inputs. I've heard that GE units are even worse. Switching with GPs and MPs was a lot smoother and faster. (I loved the sound of the big 4,000-hp motors in the SD70s, though...raw power at its finest!)

 

[Chris J.]

I'm wondering if there's any old timers here that remember the glory days of NY Central's 20th Century Limted or others who have access to time tables of that famous train. How frequently did it run between Chicago & New York? Did it run only once each way or were there more than one departure per day? Last time I rode the LSL it was pretty full, and I see here that it seems to usually be full. I'm curious if there mmight actually be enough demand for Amtrak to add a second train on this route at a different time assuming they have the equipment to run it.

The 20th century limited was i think featured in the film North by Northwest, as he headed to the Hotel Ambaddasor East in Chicago. I was took the Lake Shore Limited to Chicago on the way to the same hotel. However I started in Boston, and I don't remember there being a bus across NY state in North by Northwest either :lol:

 

[had8ley]

I'm wondering if there's any old timers here that remember the glory days of NY Central's 20th Century Limted or others who have access to time tables of that famous train. How frequently did it run between Chicago & New York? Did it run only once each way or were there more than one departure per day? Last time I rode the LSL it was pretty full, and I see here that it seems to usually be full. I'm curious if there mmight actually be enough demand for Amtrak to add a second train on this route at a different time assuming they have the equipment to run it.

The 20th century limited was i think featured in the film North by Northwest, as he headed to the Hotel Ambaddasor East in Chicago. I was took the Lake Shore Limited to Chicago on the way to the same hotel. However I started in Boston, and I don't remember there being a bus across NY state in North by Northwest either :lol:

In 1953 the 20th Century Limited left GCT at 6 p.m. and arrived in Chicago at 9 a.m. God help anyone who even gave the train a yellow block. Among the equipment was a 5 bedroom observation lounge car that I believe is still rolling under Grande Luxe flags. It had Pullman cars only up until the introduction of the sleeper coaches in the late 50's. They actually rolled out a red carpet at GCT and I believe, and we're going back 50 plus years, the train arrived and departed from track #36. The on board amenities included a barber, valet, secretary, shower bath and telephone hook-up at major stations. There was even a through New York to Los Angeles sleeper attached to the train (where were you then Patrick?). Nice train that I'm afraid we'll never see again. The fireman and engineer HAD to wear a suit to operate this train. Don't ask the rationale behind this other than the NYC wanted everything "first class" and got it that way.

P.S. The 20th Century ran daily and there were 11, yes eleven, trains that ran from GCT to Chicago a day.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

The photograph of the private car at http://www.aaprco.com/cgi/cars/cardisplay....kory-creek:type has a ``20th Century Limited'' label on the end.

 

[AlanB]

The photograph of the private car at http://www.aaprco.com/cgi/cars/cardisplay....kory-creek:type has a ``20th Century Limited'' label on the end.

Hickory Creek is a beautiful car too, they did a wonderful job restoring that car. I got a tour of it about 7 years ago during a Try Transit event in Hoboken Terminal.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I'm wondering if there's any old timers here that remember the glory days of NY Central's 20th Century Limted or others who have access to time tables of that famous train. How frequently did it run between Chicago & New York? Did it run only once each way or were there more than one departure per day? Last time I rode the LSL it was pretty full, and I see here that it seems to usually be full. I'm curious if there mmight actually be enough demand for Amtrak to add a second train on this route at a different time assuming they have the equipment to run it.

The 20th century limited was i think featured in the film North by Northwest, as he headed to the Hotel Ambaddasor East in Chicago. I was took the Lake Shore Limited to Chicago on the way to the same hotel. However I started in Boston, and I don't remember there being a bus across NY state in North by Northwest either :lol:

It was indeed the 20th Century Limited featured in that film. One of the best railroad films ever.

The 20th Century did have a section from Boston to CHI but that stopped before the streamline era(which was 1938 for the Century's first set of streamlined sets) . Thus no need for a bus or refercence to Boston in the movie.. The Boston section was revived years later by the LSL..

 

[Chris J.]

It was indeed the 20th Century Limited featured in that film. One of the best railroad films ever.
The 20th Century did have a section from Boston to CHI but that stopped before the streamline era(which was 1938 for the Century's first set of streamlined sets) . Thus no need for a bus or refercence to Boston in the movie.. The Boston section was revived years later by the LSL..

.. and then semi-dropped again to be a connecting train, rather than through cars.

My reference to the bus was that during my trip on the LSL i was bustituted from Albany to Buffalo, which makes me wonder, what did they do in the 'good old days' when there were problems on the line?

 

[jphjaxfl]

[My reference to the bus was that during my trip on the LSL i was bustituted from Albany to Buffalo, which makes me wonder, what did they do in the 'good old days' when there were problems on the line?]

They rarely had problems like they do today. The NYC main line from New York to Chicago was four through tracks all the way and additional tracks in some locations. Also the NYC had alternative routes that trains could be detoured on should a disaster happen.

Every effort was made to keep major routes like New York to Chicago open at any expense.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I'm wondering if there's any old timers here that remember the glory days of NY Central's 20th Century Limted or others who have access to time tables of that famous train. How frequently did it run between Chicago & New York? Did it run only once each way or were there more than one departure per day? Last time I rode the LSL it was pretty full, and I see here that it seems to usually be full. I'm curious if there mmight actually be enough demand for Amtrak to add a second train on this route at a different time assuming they have the equipment to run it.

The 20th century limited was i think featured in the film North by Northwest, as he headed to the Hotel Ambaddasor East in Chicago. I was took the Lake Shore Limited to Chicago on the way to the same hotel. However I started in Boston, and I don't remember there being a bus across NY state in North by Northwest either :lol:

In 1953 the 20th Century Limited left GCT at 6 p.m. and arrived in Chicago at 9 a.m. God help anyone who even gave the train a yellow block. Among the equipment was a 5 bedroom observation lounge car that I believe is still rolling under Grande Luxe flags. It had Pullman cars only up until the introduction of the sleeper coaches in the late 50's. They actually rolled out a red carpet at GCT and I believe, and we're going back 50 plus years, the train arrived and departed from track #36. The on board amenities included a barber, valet, secretary, shower bath and telephone hook-up at major stations. There was even a through New York to Los Angeles sleeper attached to the train (where were you then Patrick?). Nice train that I'm afraid we'll never see again. The fireman and engineer HAD to wear a suit to operate this train. Don't ask the rationale behind this other than the NYC wanted everything "first class" and got it that way.

P.S. The 20th Century ran daily and there were 11, yes eleven, trains that ran from GCT to Chicago a day.

And Hadley,a s you know those 11 trains were just counting the NYC,at that . That doesn't count arch rival Pennsylvania, plus smaller and sometimes less direct carriers like Nickel Plate, Eric-Lackawana and Baltimore and Ohio. All told--without checking-----maybe almost 20 trains a between CHI and NYC.

By the way, about the Century not running on Saturday....depends upon what year....I unfortunately did not manage to get out all my timetables over the weekend--- but my easiest available 1957 Official Guide does show it not operating on Saturday. But I think that came back in later years, perhaps as the mix of passengers became more vacation oriented, as business people were learning to fly, so to speak. Those details vary throught the years on so many things. I forgot to look up the Broadway and see if it did the same thing. .

I am trying to re-read some of the good old stuff on this train. For example, after dinner, the diner became sort of a night club for drinks and sometimes special dishes maybe not on the menu and then many times the dining car crew made birthday cakes for guests on the train. All kinds of stuff you would never know about today.

 

[had8ley]

In 1953 the 20th Century Limited left GCT at 6 p.m. and arrived in Chicago at 9 a.m. God help anyone who even gave the train a yellow block. Among the equipment was a 5 bedroom observation lounge car that I believe is still rolling under Grande Luxe flags. It had Pullman cars only up until the introduction of the sleeper coaches in the late 50's. They actually rolled out a red carpet at GCT and I believe, and we're going back 50 plus years, the train arrived and departed from track #36. The on board amenities included a barber, valet, secretary, shower bath and telephone hook-up at major stations. There was even a through New York to Los Angeles sleeper attached to the train (where were you then Patrick?). Nice train that I'm afraid we'll never see again. The fireman and engineer HAD to wear a suit to operate this train. Don't ask the rationale behind this other than the NYC wanted everything "first class" and got it that way.

P.S. The 20th Century ran daily and there were 11, yes eleven, trains that ran from GCT to Chicago a day.

And Hadley,a s you know those 11 trains were just counting the NYC,at that . That doesn't count arch rival Pennsylvania, plus smaller and sometimes less direct carriers like Nickel Plate, Eric-Lackawana and Baltimore and Ohio. All told--without checking-----maybe almost 20 trains a between CHI and NYC.

By the way, about the Century not running on Saturday....depends upon what year....I unfortunately did not manage to get out all my timetables over the weekend--- but my easiest available 1957 Official Guide does show it not operating on Saturday. But I think that came back in later years, perhaps as the mix of passengers became more vacation oriented, as business people were learning to fly, so to speak. Those details vary throught the years on so many things. I forgot to look up the Broadway and see if it did the same thing. .

I am trying to re-read some of the good old stuff on this train. For example, after dinner, the diner became sort of a night club for drinks and sometimes special dishes maybe not on the menu and then many times the dining car crew made birthday cakes for guests on the train. All kinds of stuff you would never know about today.

Bill;

I went back and tried to piece meal connecting trains and lost count of how many way you could get to Chicago via connecting trains. There were so many options like GCT-Buffalo and then a night train to Chicago. There were Cleveland connections also. I even ran across a real oddity~ a Detroit to Miami sleeper. The Pullman Company pulled no punches. It's a shame they don't still roll today. The only thing I saw about Saturdays, in the '53 TT, was some sleepers didn't run on Saturday. Logical, because the business men didn't travel on week-ends. One of the reasons the 20th may not have operated on Saturdays might have been for this same reason and let's not forget that it was all Pullman.

Jay