Acela II RFP information announcement

[afigg]

Any word on who submitted bids?

No public word so far. CHSRA and/or Amtrak might issue a press release in the next few weeks on how many bids they received and from who, but we may to wait until much later in the bid review process. The companies that submitted bids may post their own press notice that they did so.

BTW, for CSHRA webpage with numerous documents for the Next Generation Trainset RFP is still available for those who are interested. There are amendment links at the bottom, but they only link to a cover page, not the revised or updated document and data files provided to the bidders. The bidder questions and the answers would be interesting to read, but I do not see a link to it. For those interested in specs on the Acela trainsets, the link to the Acela HSR Mechanical Fact Sheet Shop Tour has them. For very detailed data on the NEC track speeds, grades, and curves, check the Journey Times files.

 

[afigg]

Breaking news on the procurement for HSR trainsets. Amtrak and CHSRA are canceling their joint procurement and will be proceeding with separate procurements. Saw the news on California HSR Blog site (which takes a very CA centric view of course). Not that much of a surprise as the needs of the two operators are rather different. Whether Amtrak will start their RFP process over from scratch or proceed with a revised RFP to allow the bidders to resubmit their proposals or reopen for bids, don't know.

Fresno Bee: California and Amtrak cancel joint bids for high-speed trains. Excerpt:

A joint bidding process that rail officials hoped would make it cheaper to buy new trains for the California High-Speed Rail Authority and Amtrak's Northeast Corridor has been cancelled by the two agencies.

The cancellation comes because the specifications of the trains needed in each region were "just too different" for manufacturers to accommodate under a single contract, said Frank Vacca, chief program manager for the California rail agency.

Would-be bidders were notified of the cancellation late Thursday afternoon, said Lisa Marie Alley, a spokeswoman for the rail authority.

When Amtrak and California issued their request for bids in January, after a year of discussion between the two agencies, "we were hoping that would be possible to leverage joint procurement and establish a national standard for high-speed trains for the U.S.," Vacca said Friday.

But over the course of discussions with nine potential manufacturers in recent weeks, Vacca added, "what came out was the fact that they really were not able to provide a common platform or common train that met both of our needs."

Both Amtrak and California want streamlined, electric-powered trains for their high-speed passenger-rail corridors. But for manufacturers, the devil was in the differences.

....

While California anticipates building hundreds of miles of new dedicated rail with a combination of long straightaways and wide-arced curves to accommodate higher speeds, Vacca said Amtrak is confined to a corridor largely designed and built in the late 19th century, "and to meet their trip times and optimize the corridor, they required a tilting train.

Ok, so there were 9 potential bidders for the RFP.

PS. This news is being made public on Friday afternoon. The traditional time for government agencies and contractors to release bad or non-positive news, so it is old news by Monday. Or for Amtrak, by the time Congress comes back to DC on Monday and Tuesday.

 

[jis]

This was inevitable. Good that they bit the bullet early and ejected a mindlessly developed political plan and substituted reality in its place.

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[WoodyinNYC]

Did we know that Amtrak was looking for another tilting train?

My memory is worse than rusty, but I don't recall that feature

discussed in previous posts.

Anyway, calling off the engagement makes sense.

And I wouldn't be surprised if the different political backgrounds

make for timing issues. California HSR looks to be getting its

first phase funding assured. Amtrak, as ever, depends too

much on the next election. California is closer to being ready

to spend, Amtrak not so fast.

Expect there can still be some commonalities in the parts of the two

HSR trains, to save costs and strengthen the supplier base.

 

[jis]

Amtrak depends on RRIF for this. Not the next election.

Also don't be so sure that California is out of the woods. They could yet lose a lot of their federal grant due to inability to spend and deliver by 2017!

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[Crescent ATN & TCL]

So the speculation starts again..... Who currently builds HSTs that can run in the 160-170mph range while tilting?

 

[Paulus]

So the speculation starts again..... Who currently builds HSTs that can run in the 160-170mph range while tilting?

Hitachi, Kawasaki Heavy Industries, Kinki Sharyo, Nippon Sharyo as part of the N700 Shinkansen and Bombardier (Acela). Siemens (ICN) and Alstom (New Pendolino) have tilting trains that run in the 140-155mph range as well and could probably make a reasonable offering.

 

[neroden]

Well, there were probably some benefits from the joint discussion. They probably now know which parts they can have in common and which things really do have to be completely different.

 

[frequentflyer]

"Hello Siemens, this is Amtrak, let's talk Velaroes."

 

[afigg]

Amtrak depends on RRIF for this. Not the next election.

Also don't be so sure that California is out of the woods. They could yet lose a lot of their federal grant due to inability to spend and deliver by 2017!

Amtrak would be able to reduce the cost of financing the HSR Trainsets with a RRIF loan if Congress were to provide some capital funds to cover the upfront acquisition costs. Say $100 to $200 million spread over FY16 to FY18. But it does not appear that either the Senate or the House is going to do this, so the Amtrak will probably seek a circa $1.5 or $1.6 billion RRIF loan and maybe use some of the Acela operating surplus in FY15 to FY18 to cover the upfront costs.

As for CA, the funds that have the deadline are the ~$2.5 billion in stimulus grants. The FY10 grants and state bond funds don't have the September, 2017 deadline. If CHSRA is able to work with the FRA to structure the payments to burn the ARRA funds first before taping the FY10 and much of the state bond funds, they might be able to spend the $2.5 billion by then. But I have not followed the details of the lawsuits and court decision currently blocking CHSRA from using the state bond funds and there are yet more lawsuits for CHSRA to deal with. So. yea, CA may end up not spending all of the ARRA funds and having to use the new Cap and Trade income to replace the federal money they were not able to spend. If the CA HSR system is completed from LA to SF, it will be because Gov. Brown used all of his political skill and moxie to keep the HSR project alive and to get it a dedicated state funding source. But that is a discussion for the CA HSR project which is now separated from Amtrak NEC HSR trainset acquisition.

Philly.com article on the divorce: Amtrak and California end joint plans for new trains

Relevant excerpts with additional info:

A meeting with train manufacturers in Philadelphia this month convinced officials that the needs of the Northeast and California - including top speeds and route configurations - were just too different.

......

"It was a unanimous decision by staff of both [railroad agencies] to recommend to our managements that it was best . . . to solicit the equipment separately," Mark Yachmetz, chief of Amtrak's Strategic Fleet Rail Initiatives, said Friday.

Amtrak will now seek bids next month from manufacturers for up to 28 new Acela train sets that can begin to roll into service between Boston and Washington by late 2018, Yachmetz said Friday.

So we may see a new RFP posted on the Amtrak procurement website next month. Since this would be a reprise minus the CA HSR components, Amtrak may be able to shorten the bid submission period.

 

[Ryan]

In service by late '18? That's a bit sporty. I'd love to see it, but I think that by the end of the decade is a little more realistic.

 

[jis]

If they don't start another Acela style "let us together design a three humped camel" exercise, it can be done. I have been given to understand that this time Amtrak will not be behaving like they did the last. So we'll have to wait and see I guess.

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[neroden]

If they don't start another Acela style "let us together design a three humped camel" exercise, it can be done. I have been given to understand that this time Amtrak will not be behaving like they did the last.

Sure, but what about the FRA. If it behaves the way it did last time....

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Nathanael, last time it was egos run amok more than the FRA.

 

[jis]

Yeah - good old "I will add four inches to the waist no matter what" Barb, comes to mind. Never mind that it restricted the tilt capability from being exploited fully even off of MNRR.

 

[afigg]

In service by late '18? That's a bit sporty. I'd love to see it, but I think that by the end of the decade is a little more realistic.

December 2018 is 4 and 1/2 years away. It is not that short a timeframe if the trainset is based on a proven design. The initial RFP was posted in January, the projected contract award to be made in December 2014. If Amtrak is able to repost the RFP in July, perhaps they could have a contract award next Spring as they have seen the initial bids and they no longer have to make joint decisions with CHSRA. So a late Spring 2014 contract NTP would to revenue service of the first units would be roughly 3-1/2 years.

Feasible? Maybe if the FRA grants the waiver allowing the first 2 trainsets to be built overseas with a late 2017 delivery for testing. The schedule clearly favors the vendors who have an established US production facility which does not have to undergo extensive expansion or conversion to build the HSR trainsets and also has a core of a proven skilled workforce. The US production facility should also not be too busy with other major orders in the desired 2018-2020 peak production period. If the bid has; we are going to buy the land to build a new wing on our plant and hire 80% - 90% of the workforce from scratch, Amtrak (with the recent experience of the CAF Viewliner II delays) is likely to give low technical scores on the manufacturing facility component of the bid.

So who has the manufacturing facilities that might be able to be upgraded in time for the HSR trainsets? Besides Siemens in Sacramento.

 

[jis]

I think at present the following individually or in some combination can pull it off: Siemens, Alstom, Bombardier, Kawasaki, Nippon-Sharyo.

 

[afigg]

Well, Amtrak is not letting the grass grow under its feet after the divorce with CHSRA. There is a new RFP for HSR trainsets on the procurement portal website, dated June 30. Tier III Next Generation Trainsets and Technical Support and Spares Supply Procurement.

It appears that the summary page was quickly written as the sentences are disconnected and the attachment link doesn't have anything. Perhaps document links and more public information will be added later. The schedule has a Pre-Proposal Conference Webinar on July 8 and the response end date of October 1.

 

[Paulus]

Well, Amtrak is not letting the grass grow under its feet after the divorce with CHSRA. There is a new RFP for HSR trainsets on the procurement portal website, dated June 30. Tier III Next Generation Trainsets and Technical Support and Spares Supply Procurement.

It appears that the summary page was quickly written as the sentences are disconnected and the attachment link doesn't have anything. Perhaps document links and more public information will be added later. The schedule has a Pre-Proposal Conference Webinar on July 8 and the response end date of October 1.

I don't think it's actually a link, just a confusingly styled heading that looks like a link (Details looks the same way).

 

[afigg]

Amtrak has announced its RFP for 28 HSR trainsets to the press. The trade press news reports are presumably based on an official news release, but I do not see it on the Amtrak website yet. The news report confirms that the bids are due by October 1, 2014. Which would be about 4+ month slip from the joint procurement bid submission date with the CHSRA.

Railway Age: Amtrak RFP seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets. Excerpts:

Amtrak said Wednesday, July 2, 2014 it has officially issued its Request for Proposals (RFP) for up to 28 next-generation high speed trainsets to replace its current Acela Express equipment on the Northeast Corridor (NEC).

Amtrak expects the new gear to be "capable of meeting or exceeding current Acela trip-times on the existing NEC infrastructure," and added, "The new equipment is intended to have 40% more seats per train than current trainsets.

Demand for the Acela service keep growing

The move comes as Amtrak's Acela Express service struggles to handle increasing demand. Amtrak said Acela Express ridership is up 7% from a year ago and trains are often sold out, especially during peak periods. On 25 occasions so far in fiscal year 2014, which began Oct. 1, 2014, the number of daily trips on Acela topped 14,000. That's compared to five times in FY13, Amtrak noted.

There is also a new RFI on the procurement portal for 15 Tier 4 diesel electric locomotives and 1 switcher loco in conjunction with an application to the "Carl Moyer Grant Program". So Amtrak appears to be exploring all avenues to get some new diesels.

 

[Paulus]

There is also a new RFI on the procurement portal for 15 Tier 4 diesel electric locomotives and 1 switcher loco in conjunction with an application to the "Carl Moyer Grant Program". So Amtrak appears to be exploring all avenues to get some new diesels.

Also what appears to be a replacement for their reservation system.

 

[afigg]

The Amtrak new release about the RFP has shown up on the website: Amtrak Seeking New High-Speed Trainsets. Short news release with no additional info beyond what was already in the Railway Age report.

What I noticed is that there is no mention of the previous RFP and attempt at a joint procurement with CHSRA. By breaking the news of the cancellation on a Friday, they succeeded in the story getting little press coverage beyond the CA papers and buried in several east coast papers. So forget the earlier RFP and pretend that this is an all new shiny procurement plan.

 

[Anderson]

Amtrak has announced its RFP for 28 HSR trainsets to the press. The trade press news reports are presumably based on an official news release, but I do not see it on the Amtrak website yet. The news report confirms that the bids are due by October 1, 2014. Which would be about 4+ month slip from the joint procurement bid submission date with the CHSRA.

Railway Age: Amtrak RFP seeks 28 next-gen HSR trainsets. Excerpts:

Amtrak said Wednesday, July 2, 2014 it has officially issued its Request for Proposals (RFP) for up to 28 next-generation high speed trainsets to replace its current Acela Express equipment on the Northeast Corridor (NEC).

Amtrak expects the new gear to be "capable of meeting or exceeding current Acela trip-times on the existing NEC infrastructure," and added, "The new equipment is intended to have 40% more seats per train than current trainsets.

Demand for the Acela service keep growing

The move comes as Amtrak's Acela Express service struggles to handle increasing demand. Amtrak said Acela Express ridership is up 7% from a year ago and trains are often sold out, especially during peak periods. On 25 occasions so far in fiscal year 2014, which began Oct. 1, 2014, the number of daily trips on Acela topped 14,000. That's compared to five times in FY13, Amtrak noted.

There is also a new RFI on the procurement portal for 15 Tier 4 diesel electric locomotives and 1 switcher loco in conjunction with an application to the "Carl Moyer Grant Program". So Amtrak appears to be exploring all avenues to get some new diesels.

And this is why I'm in favor of Amtrak pushing more Acela capacity first and timetable improvements later: The Acela is increasingly at capacity, and cutting travel times substantially is likely to further over-burden a system that can already barely handle existing demand.

Edit: With that said, does anyone know roughly what the Acela II order ought to cost per trainset?

 

[Paulus]

Edit: With that said, does anyone know roughly what the Acela II order ought to cost per trainset?

Around $40-50 million per set.

 

[Anderson]

Edit: With that said, does anyone know roughly what the Acela II order ought to cost per trainset?

Around $40-50 million per set.

*blinks*

Assuming $50m, that would be $1.4bn. Assuming something runs over...$1.5bn seems cheap considering the $211m the Acela has, in theory, made so far this year. The Acela IIs ought to be able to effectively make back their cost of purchase in no more than 7-10 years (and if you put all of the nominal profits into that "repayment", the period might be as little as 3-5 years).