Additional Keystone Capacity?

Shop deals on ebay
Advertise with us
shop deals on amazon
Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
ronkstevens

ronkstevens

Service Attendant
Joined
Jul 25, 2013
Messages
191
Location
Philadelphia Suburbs
When I took train 645 today it had 6 cars (5 Amfleet I + Metroliner cab car) instead of the usual 5 cars. Are they adding an additional car to some/all Keystone consists?

It didn't seem like an empty move. All cars were in use, and only the car closest to the locomotive was signed as the quiet car, like always.
 
Good question. From what I've read, I know the Keystones get packed during the rush hours heading in and out of Philly. People actually have to stand in the vestibules. When I went on Train 667 (on March 15) with my school group of 62 people, we all had seats because we were boarded first. But, I did see some people standing in the vestibules. So, adding a sixth car might not be a bad idea; they can always close off the 6th car during slow periods.
 
They get VERY packed occasionally, and would benefit from an additional car being added. But I don't think that Amtrak has enough spare Amfleet I's around to add one to every Keystone trainset (7 or 8, I think). I don't know if they would be able to work out a schedule using two different size consists to have the larger sets on the peak runs.
 
I rode Keystones #660 and #671 from ELT-NYP and back yesterday. Both of my trains had the usual 5 car consist. Interesting to note: the train wasn't at all full going between ELT and Philly. However, it was pretty full going from PHL to NYP. There were about 6 or 7 empty seats in my car (The Quiet Car). I didn't have a "seat buddy" however. The return trip was the same, pretty full between NYP and PHL, but only about 40-50 people boarded at PHL for the Harrisburg leg.
 
It would not surprise me in the least if some of the Horizons get re-deployed to the Keystones when they start to become excess in the Midwest in the next few years. You very easily could stick one or two in the middle of the consist and still have automatic doors adjacent to them for boarding/de-training.
 
battalion51 said:
It would not surprise me in the least if some of the Horizons get re-deployed to the Keystones when they start to become excess in the Midwest in the next few years. You very easily could stick one or two in the middle of the consist and still have automatic doors adjacent to them for boarding/de-training.
Click to expand...
Horizon cars are rated for 110mph max. They would not be acceptable for the PHL-NYP segment on the NEC.
 
I can never remember whether they're good for 110 or 125. Unless they were downgraded I believe they were listed as being good for 125...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
They are rated and certified for 125. Amtrak never runs them that fast because they have proven unstable at those speeds.
 
PRR 60 said:
battalion51 said:
It would not surprise me in the least if some of the Horizons get re-deployed to the Keystones when they start to become excess in the Midwest in the next few years. You very easily could stick one or two in the middle of the consist and still have automatic doors adjacent to them for boarding/de-training.
Click to expand...
Horizon cars are rated for 110mph max. They would not be acceptable for the PHL-NYP segment on the NEC.
Click to expand...
Once they finish removing the grade crossings the HAR-PHL segment will be 125mph as well
 
I have seen them on the Vermonter, which I believe is run at 125.
 
Period. Amtrak limits them due to high speed instability caused by the cars sway. They were designed for commuter service in NJ and the Amtrak tag on order was not well thought out.
 
ronkstevens said:
Once they finish removing the grade crossings the HAR-PHL segment will be 125mph as well
Click to expand...
That is incorrect. Closing the remaining grade crossings is one of the steps to eventually upgrade parts of the eastern Keystone to 125 mph speeds, but not the only step. There is a list of upgrade and modernization projects for the corridor to make it into a nominal 125 mph corridor, but many of those projects are not yet funded. However, with the increasing gas tax revenue starting to flow to PennDOT, the state will in a position to fund station and track modernization projects in the coming years.
 
Are you kidding? Pennsylvania never funds infrastructure projects. Especially outside of the Philly area.
 
There are roads. If you can call the broken down piles of rubble Swiss cheesed with potholes large enough to swallow Winnebagos roads.
 
PRR 60 said:
battalion51 said:
It would not surprise me in the least if some of the Horizons get re-deployed to the Keystones when they start to become excess in the Midwest in the next few years. You very easily could stick one or two in the middle of the consist and still have automatic doors adjacent to them for boarding/de-training.
Click to expand...
Horizon cars are rated for 110mph max. They would not be acceptable for the PHL-NYP segment on the NEC.
Click to expand...
I have seen postings on trainorders quoting the Amtrak NEC ETT stating that Horizons are good for 125mph. However, I have never had an opportunity to verify that information by taking a look at an NEC ETT myself.
 
From the Fleet Strategy Plan:

horizon_125.png
 
PRR, the second part of your conjecture about Horizons not being used too much or at best sparingly on the NEC is still true. The reason is the lack of remote controlled doors.

As far as whether the Horizons are actually run at 125 or not, I suspect since they are stated to be 125 capable in the ETT, they do run at 125. I have never heard of any secret pacts that exist among all to restrict trains to speeds lower than officially allowed by the ETT.

OTOH, sometimes trains that should have been restricted to 110mph have been found to be flying along at 125. The prime example was the Colonial that was involved in the Chase crash. It had a Heritage car in its consist and yet it was speeding along at 128mph per NTSB report before brakes were applied. I suppose the Conductor forgot to tell the Engineer that he had a 110mph car in the consist?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You know I could swear I can picture the Crash report in my eidetic brain, and can't remember anything about that. What car, JIS? Also if you could link to the wreck report I'd be mighty grateful.
 
Green Maned Lion said:
You know I could swear I can picture the Crash report in my eidetic brain, and can't remember anything about that. What car, JIS? Also if you could link to the wreck report I'd be mighty grateful.
Click to expand...
I will have to dig it up. I am also posting from memory so it is always to be taken with a pinch of salt. :)
 
afigg said:
ronkstevens said:
Once they finish removing the grade crossings the HAR-PHL segment will be 125mph as well
Click to expand...
That is incorrect. Closing the remaining grade crossings is one of the steps to eventually upgrade parts of the eastern Keystone to 125 mph speeds, but not the only step. There is a list of upgrade and modernization projects for the corridor to make it into a nominal 125 mph corridor, but many of those projects are not yet funded. However, with the increasing gas tax revenue starting to flow to PennDOT, the state will in a position to fund station and track modernization projects in the coming years.
Click to expand...
http://www.planthekeystone.com/highspeedrail.html

http://www.nec-commission.com/ir_services/keystone-service/

When the funding for the grade crossing removal was announced nearly every article stated that once they were removed they could raise the limit to 125mph, and make taking the Keystone from HAR to PHL faster than driving. If that has changed since the funding was awarded then why was it changed? Also, if it changed after the money was awarded was the 125mph a false promise used to get the funding?

I know you're still not going to go that fast through Gap
 
The key point being missed is that removal of the grade crossings is an "enabler" for eventually raising the speed limit to 125mph. There are other things that have to happen in addition to removal of the grade crossings before the speed limit can be raised. This work mainly consists of substantial reconstruction of 5 interlockings and associated catenary and signal work. This work is scheduled to be completed in 2017, which is when the "project completion" for the grant will occur and indeed if everything goes well, speeds will be raised and schedules adjusted to reflect the same. It is entirely possible that on certain segments, if the signal and interlocking improvements are completed substantially ahead of schedule, speed limits may be raised upon the completion of the work in the segments. So best thing to do now is to follow what is going on closely and see what comes to pass, instead of getting all panicked about someone having lied to someone else etc.

In case one wishes to see the details of the work plan and list of tasks and subtasks and planned schedules and budgets, have a look at: Narrative Application Form – Service Development Program Part II Statement of Work (PDF).
 
Just wondering....with all the current and future upgrades of the NEC and the Keystone line to 125mph and above....If they ran a "Valley Forge" or whatever, from NYP via the 'NY and Pittsburgh subway' at Zoo, bypassing PHL, making limited stops to Harrisburg, what could the running time be reduced to?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Back
Top