Additional Keystone Capacity?

[ronkstevens]

Just wondering....with all the current and future upgrades of the NEC and the Keystone line to 125mph and above....If they ran a "Valley Forge" or whatever, from NYP via the 'NY and Pittsburgh subway' at Zoo, bypassing PHL, making limited stops to Harrisburg, what could the running time be reduced to?

The tracks that the PRR used at Zoo to head north instead of going to 30th Street have been removed. Any alternative to the current "go to 30th street and switch direction" would not save any additional time than what they are currently doing.

With the speed increase they are looking at reducing the time from HAR to PHL to 1:15 with limited stops. This would mean a total time from NYP to HAR at under 3 hours

 

[jis]

Just wondering....with all the current and future upgrades of the NEC and the Keystone line to 125mph and above....If they ran a "Valley Forge" or whatever, from NYP via the 'NY and Pittsburgh subway' at Zoo, bypassing PHL, making limited stops to Harrisburg, what could the running time be reduced to?

The tracks that the PRR used at Zoo to head north instead of going to 30th Street have been removed. Any alternative to the current "go to 30th street and switch direction" would not save any additional time than what they are currently doing.

With the speed increase they are looking at reducing the time from HAR to PHL to 1:15 with limited stops. This would mean a total time from NYP to HAR at under 3 hours

That is incorrect, unless it was removed in the last couple of weeks. AFAIK one track still remains in place through the Pittsburgh Subway and is used mainly to Wye consists and diesel engines these days. Are you sure that track has been removed? If so, how do they turn engines for the Pennsylvanians?

The total time would also depend on whether an Acela was being used or a standard Regional/Keystone consist. Hey, when dreaming why not dream vbig!

 

[ronkstevens]

Just wondering....with all the current and future upgrades of the NEC and the Keystone line to 125mph and above....If they ran a "Valley Forge" or whatever, from NYP via the 'NY and Pittsburgh subway' at Zoo, bypassing PHL, making limited stops to Harrisburg, what could the running time be reduced to?

The tracks that the PRR used at Zoo to head north instead of going to 30th Street have been removed. Any alternative to the current "go to 30th street and switch direction" would not save any additional time than what they are currently doing.

With the speed increase they are looking at reducing the time from HAR to PHL to 1:15 with limited stops. This would mean a total time from NYP to HAR at under 3 hours

That is incorrect, unless it was removed in the last couple of weeks. AFAIK one track still remains in place through the Pittsburgh Subway and is used mainly to Wye consists and diesel engines these days. Are you sure that track has been removed? If so, how do they turn engines for the Pennsylvanians?

The total time would also depend on whether an Acela was being used or a standard Regional/Keystone consist. Hey, when dreaming why not dream vbig!

My bad. I was thinking of the non-subway tracks that are gone

 

[jis]

That is incorrect, unless it was removed in the last couple of weeks. AFAIK one track still remains in place through the Pittsburgh Subway and is used mainly to Wye consists and diesel engines these days. Are you sure that track has been removed? If so, how do they turn engines for the Pennsylvanians?

My bad. I was thinking of the non-subway tracks that are gone

No problem. Just wanted to make sure that the confusion was cleared.

The trains that bypassed Philly in the past, even in early Amtrak days, all used the subway and not the surface lines. The track layout in Zoo is and was such that the subway provided the most direct routing. And the subway was double track back then.

 

[fairviewroad]

I suspect there's not the market anymore for a Keystone that bypasses 30th Street, but I can definitely

see the argument for keeping the subway tracks in active condition.

 

[railiner]

Just wondering....with all the current and future upgrades of the NEC and the Keystone line to 125mph and above....If they ran a "Valley Forge" or whatever, from NYP via the 'NY and Pittsburgh subway' at Zoo, bypassing PHL, making limited stops to Harrisburg, what could the running time be reduced to?

The tracks that the PRR used at Zoo to head north instead of going to 30th Street have been removed. Any alternative to the current "go to 30th street and switch direction" would not save any additional time than what they are currently doing.

With the speed increase they are looking at reducing the time from HAR to PHL to 1:15 with limited stops. This would mean a total time from NYP to HAR at under 3 hours

That is incorrect, unless it was removed in the last couple of weeks. AFAIK one track still remains in place through the Pittsburgh Subway and is used mainly to Wye consists and diesel engines these days. Are you sure that track has been removed? If so, how do they turn engines for the Pennsylvanians?

The total time would also depend on whether an Acela was being used or a standard Regional/Keystone consist. Hey, when dreaming why not dream vbig!

Okay, then....suppose they did use an Acela....what do you figure would be the best possible time from NYP to HAR?

 

[railiner]

I suspect there's not the market anymore for a Keystone that bypasses 30th Street, but I can definitely

see the argument for keeping the subway tracks in active condition.

If they ran a fast schedule from places along the "Mainline" district, to NWK and NYP, say once a day in the rush hours, the running time would be conducive for long-distance daily commuter's...there very well could be a market to support at least one daily roundtrip, even if it ran fairly empty on its morning run at its west end. I imagine it picking up nicely at DOW, EXT, PAO, and ARD, with perhaps some earlybirds from the other stops....

 

[Anderson]

I suspect there's not the market anymore for a Keystone that bypasses 30th Street, but I can definitely

see the argument for keeping the subway tracks in active condition.

If they ran a fast schedule from places along the "Mainline" district, to NWK and NYP, say once a day in the rush hours, the running time would be conducive for long-distance daily commuter's...there very well could be a market to support at least one daily roundtrip, even if it ran fairly empty on its morning run at its west end. I imagine it picking up nicely at DOW, EXT, PAO, and ARD, with perhaps some earlybirds from the other stops....

If you used PHN and TRE as intermediate stops (for SEPTA/Philly Subway and NJT transfers, respectively), you could probably get a decent block of business for this.

 

[Acela150]

Just wondering....with all the current and future upgrades of the NEC and the Keystone line to 125mph and above....If they ran a "Valley Forge" or whatever, from NYP via the 'NY and Pittsburgh subway' at Zoo, bypassing PHL, making limited stops to Harrisburg, what could the running time be reduced to?

The tracks that the PRR used at Zoo to head north instead of going to 30th Street have been removed. Any alternative to the current "go to 30th street and switch direction" would not save any additional time than what they are currently doing.

With the speed increase they are looking at reducing the time from HAR to PHL to 1:15 with limited stops. This would mean a total time from NYP to HAR at under 3 hours

That is incorrect, unless it was removed in the last couple of weeks. AFAIK one track still remains in place through the Pittsburgh Subway and is used mainly to Wye consists and diesel engines these days. Are you sure that track has been removed? If so, how do they turn engines for the Pennsylvanians?

The total time would also depend on whether an Acela was being used or a standard Regional/Keystone consist. Hey, when dreaming why not dream vbig!

The Pittsburgh Subway is part of the reason why that Keystone Train ended up in Cynwyd back in November. They were going to shove the train clear of the interlocking and run the train with the toaster leading through the Pittsburgh Subway and running back north to NYP.

I suspect there's not the market anymore for a Keystone that bypasses 30th Street, but I can definitely

see the argument for keeping the subway tracks in active condition.

If they ran a fast schedule from places along the "Mainline" district, to NWK and NYP, say once a day in the rush hours, the running time would be conducive for long-distance daily commuter's...there very well could be a market to support at least one daily roundtrip, even if it ran fairly empty on its morning run at its west end. I imagine it picking up nicely at DOW, EXT, PAO, and ARD, with perhaps some earlybirds from the other stops....

If you used PHN and TRE as intermediate stops (for SEPTA/Philly Subway and NJT transfers, respectively), you could probably get a decent block of business for this.

TRE sure.. But PHN is in a very rough neighborhood! Even Septa traffic is low there. I think I read somewhere that PHN served a whopping 300+ people a few years ago. Truth be told even though back when the PRR ran the corridor and the Broadway Limited's main Philadelphia stop was North Philly and bypassed 30th Street. Those days are long gone! There also isn't a waiting room there. IINM Amtrak cut one train in each direction from stopping there as the demand is so low!

 

[fairviewroad]

I suspect there's not the market anymore for a Keystone that bypasses 30th Street, but I can definitely

see the argument for keeping the subway tracks in active condition.

If they ran a fast schedule from places along the "Mainline" district, to NWK and NYP, say once a day in the rush hours, the running time would be conducive for long-distance daily commuter's...there very well could be a market to support at least one daily roundtrip, even if it ran fairly empty on its morning run at its west end. I imagine it picking up nicely at DOW, EXT, PAO, and ARD, with perhaps some earlybirds from the other stops....

It's been tried in the past. And there's nothing to stop them from doing this now. So it's logical to assume that the market's simply not there for it.

Would some people use it? Sure, some would. But at once a day, it would have to be perfectly timed to meet the needs of a critical mass of commuters.

At twice (or more) per day, then you're burning up valuable space on the NEC for a train that doesn't serve PHL, one of the biggest generators

of traffic in the country.

 

[jis]

I agree. Even once a day is not worth it given the low proportion of people that actually travel through Philly to the Main Line stations from the New York side. There would probably be a few or even many more if they bothered to stop at Princeton jct and New Brunswick to pick up the college crowd. But they don't. It is an outright pain in the butt to get to anywhere other than Trenton and Newark from the Harrisburg side, and most potential customers simply drive instead.

 

[Palmetto]

New here, and have not read the whole thread. However, 10 years ago, I took a Keystone from NYP to Paoli and it had only three cars back then. Nice to see they've had to beef these trains up with more capacity.

 

[fairviewroad]

New here, and have not read the whole thread. However, 10 years ago, I took a Keystone from NYP to Paoli and it had only three cars back then. Nice to see they've had to beef these trains up with more capacity.

Welcome to Amtrak Unlimited, Palmetto!

 

[jis]

New here, and have not read the whole thread. However, 10 years ago, I took a Keystone from NYP to Paoli and it had only three cars back then. Nice to see they've had to beef these trains up with more capacity.

Welcome!
Yes, the PennDOT funded upgrades have been extremely nice and has improved the service considerably. Speeds are slated to be increased further on the Main Line over the next couple of years as track and catenary upgrades are completed.

 

[Palmetto]

Thanks for the welcome comments.

Concerning using the subway at Zoo, intellectually, running NYP to HBG via the Pittsburg Subway has a lot of appeal to me. Did that on the Broadway Limited [a long time ago] and certainly speeds up the trip by skipping PHL. Just not enough demand apparently to do this anymore--and there's the practical side of the issue, huh?

 

[jis]

Yup, there is the practical side of making enough revenue to support the service.... sort of, or at least keep subsidies down at a level that PennDOT is willing to live with.

BTW the official Amtrak station code for Harrisburg PA is HAR. HBG is the code for Hattiesburg MS. Though it is true that many of the locals use HBG to refer to Harrisburg from time to time.

 

[jis]

You know I could swear I can picture the Crash report in my eidetic brain, and can't remember anything about that. What car, JIS? Also if you could link to the wreck report I'd be mighty grateful.

GML I promised I'd look this up for you and here it is. The entire report in PDF form can be found at:
http://dotlibrary.specialcollection.net/Document?db=DOT-RAILROAD&query=%28select+4107%29

I quote the most relevant portion relative to our discussion. The consist of 94 that day contained one Heritage Fleet car which at that time was restricted to 105mph. The Conductor testified that he had notified the Engineer of this fact, of course there is no way to verify that testimony. The train was operating at 120 to 125mph in spite of that restriction present according to the rulebook. It was considered a minor contributory factor to the accident, but Amtrak was asked to tighten supervision of its engineers in the area of compliance with civil speed restrictions by NTSB.

At the time of the accident, NEC timetable rule 1157-G1 restricted the maximum authorized speed of Amtrak's AEM-7 class locomotive units (which were used on train 94) to 125 mph when pulling a train. Amtrak's E60CP electric locomotives were restricted to a maximum of 90 mph for locomotives numbered 600 through 615, and 80 mph for locomotives numbered 950 through 975. Amtrak's Amfleet-class passenger cars, series 20000 through 28024, were restricted to 125 mph, but according to the timetable rule, Amtrak Heritage-class passenger cars were restricted to 105 mph (see the section on Train Information). The maximum speed of any Amtrak train on the corridor was the lowest allowable speed for any locomotive unit or car in the train. Amtrak train 94 was being operated on January 4, 1987, with one Heritage-class Passenger car.

Amtrak has not provided the Safety Board with a written Procedure that it uses to inform dispatchers of trains that contain restricted-speed Amtrak-owned cars or locomotive units.

The E-section dispatcher 5/ stated that he was unaware that train 94 included a restricted-speed car, and he said there was no procedure for stationmasters or operators to provide dispatchers with such information. The general superintendent in charge of the Philadelphia Division section of the corridor between Philadelphia and Washington testified at the Safety Board public hearing (see appendix A) that conductors were responsible for determining if their trains contained such restricted-speed equipment and to notify their engineers when they did. Amtrak operating rule 80 required that dispatchers be notified in advance of any condition that would delay a train or prevent it from making normal speed (see appendix C). The general superintendent stated that operating rule 80 requires conductors to advise dispatchers of any restricted-speed cars in their trains. The conductor of train 94 testified that he informed the engineer that their train contained a Heritage-class car before they left Washington.

So what I remembered wrong is the top speed of operation. But what I remembered right is that it was operating way above is top permitted speed.

Incidentally the Heritage car in the consist was Coach 7624, which was the second from last car and was only slightly damaged in the crash.

 

[neroden]

I've always thought that a combined North Philadelphia Amtrak-SEPTA / North Broad SEPTA / North Philadelphia Broad St. Subway station could be an attractive and useful complex. But that would require Actual Serious Expensive Work.

 

[Acela150]

Actual expensive work that Septa doesn't have the money for..

 

[fairviewroad]

I've always thought that a combined North Philadelphia Amtrak-SEPTA / North Broad SEPTA / North Philadelphia Broad St. Subway station could be an attractive and useful complex. But that would require Actual Serious Expensive Work.

Geographically it would make a lot of sense. But that area has a poor reputation and many folks would go out of their way (literally) to avoid it.

Granted, a gleaming new intermodal transportation complex would do wonders in terms of improving the neighborhood's reputation and appearance,

but I just don't see that happening in our lifetime.

Arguably a better location to interface SEPTA urban transit with the NEC would be where the Market-Frankford line crosses over the NEC. It's right

off I-95 and would open up the NEC to people in northeast Philly...and would probably be a quicker way of reaching center city Philadelphia...just

hop on a Blue Line train and you're downtown in minutes. But again, not going to happen.

 

[Acela150]

I've always thought that a combined North Philadelphia Amtrak-SEPTA / North Broad SEPTA / North Philadelphia Broad St. Subway station could be an attractive and useful complex. But that would require Actual Serious Expensive Work.

Geographically it would make a lot of sense. But that area has a poor reputation and many folks would go out of their way (literally) to avoid it.

Granted, a gleaming new intermodal transportation complex would do wonders in terms of improving the neighborhood's reputation and appearance,

but I just don't see that happening in our lifetime.

Arguably a better location to interface SEPTA urban transit with the NEC would be where the Market-Frankford line crosses over the NEC. It's right

off I-95 and would open up the NEC to people in northeast Philly...and would probably be a quicker way of reaching center city Philadelphia...just

hop on a Blue Line train and you're downtown in minutes. But again, not going to happen.

Septa's North Broad station is at Broad & Lehigh to say that is a bad neighborhood is an understatement. A couple blocks away where the North Philadelphia station is, is just as bad.

Now where the Market Frankford El crosses the NEC at Shore Tower/Interlocking is possible to an extent. The bridge that carries the El across the NEC is in the middle of two stops. Can't recall which ones off the top of my head. BUT the Pennsy served Frankford Junction which is east of shore by a few tenths of a mile at Milepost 80.9. Frankford Junction isn't a bad neighborhood but it's not great. I always head to Frankford Junction with Dad and a Family friend the Sunday after thanksgiving to watch train go by. I've only had one issue there and that was someone was eyeing my blackberry, I was actually walking down to my car to get it and scared them off. Other then that I've never had an issue there. The platforms from the PRR remained in tact up until 2008 or 2009 when Amtrak installed new switches at "SHORE" for the now defunct ACES Service. The tunnel under the tracks is still there just filled in with ballast IIRC.

If one was to put a stop in there for the El and Amtrak it wouldn't make much sense as the Market Frankford El and Amtrak both stop at 30th Street. Granted one has to take a short walk to get the El it's not inconvenient. It's 10 minutes from Shore interlocking to PHL by Amtrak, and 20 from 30th Street to the bridge that goes across the NEC at Shore by the El.

 

[afigg]

Septa's North Broad station is at Broad & Lehigh to say that is a bad neighborhood is an understatement. A couple blocks away where the North Philadelphia station is, is just as bad.

Rather than building a new station elsewhere north of 30th St, the area around the North Philadelphia station should be a candidate for Transit Oriented Redevelopment as opposed to TOD. The city should be able to take advantage of the good transit options and build on that. Center City has undergone a significant turnaround over the past 10 years. After decades of population decline, Philly has been adding population in recent years. Philly is lagging behind DC, Boston, NYC in the revival of the urban core of the major cities of the NEC, but it has a transit system to build that few other cities in the US have. The North Philadelphia neighborhood could see the turnaround in Center City spread northward, although politics in Philly can be very obstructive and short-sighted. The number of passengers getting on or off at PHN did increaae to 590 in FY2013, so it is on the upswing!

 

[Acela150]

The City of Philadelphia is like Septa.. They have no money.. As a matter of fact our mayor who happens to be a dumba** has suggested cutting funding to the city schools and closing schools to "save money". This has been a very very hot topic in this city. On top of that our lovely republican governor isn't giving much to the school funding. I'll tell you this much.. November I honestly hope Tom Corbett gets voted out. The only thing he did/tried to do that I was in support of was to privatize the state lotto. His Voter ID law just got struck down by a court. Which also caused an uproar throughout the state of Pennsylvania. I'm pretty sure Philadelphia and Pennsylvania have constantly been screwed by s**ty politicians. Another thing that the city's mayor hasn't done in his almost 8 years in office is give the City Firefighters a contract. Mayor Nutter wants it his way and only his way. The union hasn't done much about it though. I'm hoping that in November Tom Corbett gets voted out and whoever gets voted in gives the schools money that they desperately need and whoever our new mayor is doesn't have his or her head up their ass.

Enough said.

 

[neroden]

Arguably a better location to interface SEPTA urban transit with the NEC would be where the Market-Frankford line crosses over the NEC.

When you said this, I immediately thought of 30th St. Station. I have no idea why the direct, covered, indoor connection between stations remains closed.
Then I realized you meant the *other* place it crosses over the NEC, at the northeast end. Also a good idea...

But probably reopening the direct connection at Market St. would be relatively easy to do, and I really have no idea why it hasn't been done...

 

[PRR 60]

Arguably a better location to interface SEPTA urban transit with the NEC would be where the Market-Frankford line crosses over the NEC.

When you said this, I immediately thought of 30th St. Station. I have no idea why the direct, covered, indoor connection between stations remains closed.
Then I realized you meant the *other* place it crosses over the NEC, at the northeast end. Also a good idea...

But probably reopening the direct connection at Market St. would be relatively easy to do, and I really have no idea why it hasn't been done...

It may not be that easy to reopen the 30th Street - MFSE connector. The direct connection was originally closed due to the number of twists and turns that made security down there an issue that neither Amtrak nor SEPTA wanted to address. Yes, that was a copout, but that was the reason.

Later, as part of the renovation of the station that added the food court and restaurants, the stairway into the station was completely removed and the marble flooring was extended over the area. Other than a very slight variation in the color of the marble, the location of the old SEPTA MFSE stairway within 30th Street Station is hard to even find today.