All sleeper LD trains?

[GlobalistPotato]

I know a most railroad's top-of-the-line passenger trains tended to be all sleepers, usually Pullman. Usually the railroad would also have an all-coach train along the same route too. (The Super Chief was ATSF's luxury sleeper train, while El Capitan was all coach. Both went over the same route and had the same stops and engines.)

Today, Amtrak's LD trains have seemed to combine both the all-Sleeper and all-Coach trains. Which works fine, I guess.

However, there are several routes where I can see a special Next-Morning, All-Sleeper train, likely marketed to business travelers and vacationers. These trains would operate in addition to existing daylight trains on the route.

Probably the best example I can think of in Amtrak is the Auto Train. Leave station in the afternoon, arrive at destination in the morning.

The example I was thinking of is a daily SAS-HOU-NOL-JAX-ORL-TAM/MIA overnight sleep train.

Keep in mind that this train runs on an improved route (110 mph max between SAS and HOU, 90mph max between HOU and JAX, and 110 mph max again in Florida after JAX)

Coach cars are attached to the train on its daylight sections (SAS-HOU and JAX-TAM/MIA). This essentially makes one more corridor train serving the route each day.

Passengers riding outside the "Coach zone" only need to pay for a sleeper room. For instance:

If I am riding SAS-HOU, then I can only get a coach car. If I'm riding SAS-NOL, I can only get a sleeper, but I don't have to pay for a coach seat. If I'm riding SAS-MIA, it's the same as going between SAS-NOL. However, If I'm riding JAX/MIA, then it's the same as riding SAS-HOU.

Understand?

Also, there's a 1 hour layover in NOL for a refill and crew change.

Eastbound:

Leaves SAS sometime between noon and 3pm. Dinner begins as the train is pulling into HOU. Dinner is served until after Lake Charles, around 8pm or so. Pulls into NOL between 10 pm and 12 am. Arrives in JAX by 6 or 7 am. Reaches ORL by 9 am. Arrives at TAM/MIA an hour or so later.

Westbound:

Leaves TAM/MIA during the late afternoon. Arrives in JAX at 7 pm. Dinner is served for another hour. Arrives at NOL sometime between midnight and 1 am. Pulls into HOU at around 8 am or so. Arrives at SAS at around 10:30 am.

Sounds cool? Good idea?

 

[the_traveler]

Semi-good idea. But I see 2 problems:

1. For an all sleeper train, you need (as the name implies) sleeping cars!
   
   The problem is - there are no spares. If there were, they would put more sleepers on the trains they have now. Most trains only carry 2 sleepers each!
2. If you haven't noticed, service between NOL and FL has been "temporarily suspended" since Katrina stuck!

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Please, if we are going to get more service to places, at the moment, it needs to be sleeper-diner-lounge-coach trains of the sort Amtrak runs, to places that aren't served. We're going to have a fight to keep what's running, forget the new stuff for the moment.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I know a most railroad's top-of-the-line passenger trains tended to be all sleepers, usually Pullman. Usually the railroad would also have an all-coach train along the same route too. (The Super Chief was ATSF's luxury sleeper train, while El Capitan was all coach. Both went over the same route and had the same stops and engines.)

Today, Amtrak's LD trains have seemed to combine both the all-Sleeper and all-Coach trains. Which works fine, I guess.

However, there are several routes where I can see a special Next-Morning, All-Sleeper train, likely marketed to business travelers and vacationers. These trains would operate in addition to existing daylight trains on the route.

Probably the best example I can think of in Amtrak is the Auto Train. Leave station in the afternoon, arrive at destination in the morning.

The example I was thinking of is a daily SAS-HOU-NOL-JAX-ORL-TAM/MIA overnight sleep train.

Keep in mind that this train runs on an improved route (110 mph max between SAS and HOU, 90mph max between HOU and JAX, and 110 mph max again in Florida after JAX)

Coach cars are attached to the train on its daylight sections (SAS-HOU and JAX-TAM/MIA). This essentially makes one more corridor train serving the route each day.

Passengers riding outside the "Coach zone" only need to pay for a sleeper room. For instance:

If I am riding SAS-HOU, then I can only get a coach car. If I'm riding SAS-NOL, I can only get a sleeper, but I don't have to pay for a coach seat. If I'm riding SAS-MIA, it's the same as going between SAS-NOL. However, If I'm riding JAX/MIA, then it's the same as riding SAS-HOU.

Understand?

Also, there's a 1 hour layover in NOL for a refill and crew change.

Eastbound:

Leaves SAS sometime between noon and 3pm. Dinner begins as the train is pulling into HOU. Dinner is served until after Lake Charles, around 8pm or so. Pulls into NOL between 10 pm and 12 am. Arrives in JAX by 6 or 7 am. Reaches ORL by 9 am. Arrives at TAM/MIA an hour or so later.

Westbound:

Leaves TAM/MIA during the late afternoon. Arrives in JAX at 7 pm. Dinner is served for another hour. Arrives at NOL sometime between midnight and 1 am. Pulls into HOU at around 8 am or so. Arrives at SAS at around 10:30 am.

Sounds cool? Good idea?

It is fun to dream and wish and hope and speculate. Truth is, not that many trains were all pullman proportionately to the number of trains that ran in the past. Sure, the 20th Century Limited,the Commodore Vanderbilt, the Broadway Limited,Super Chief,Panama Limited, the Lark,the General,the Pittsburger,etc even the Crescent between NYC and ATL, (though not from ATL to NOL) were all sleeper, for a few years at least.

But they were a drop in the bucket compared to the more normal trains which had various kinds of sleeper and coach consists.

A deliberately specific matching thing like the EL Capitan and the Super Chief had for awhile was really kind of rare. Sure,some trains were all coach but not usually lined up that specific way.

In order for it to be feasible to run an all sleeper train there has to be a strong background of population and ridership.

Finally, keep in mind that few of the all sleeper trains actually remained that way to the end. Most of them had to face up to the reality and went out as having both coaches and sleepers.

 

[GlobalistPotato]

Of course this idea is 3 steps ahead of now. Yes, Amtrak has to fight to survive before it can expand service.

The steps would be:

1) Get a daily NOL-LAX train.

2) Restore service from NOL to Florida. If this happens under Amtrak's plan for the Sunset limited, then it is likely that the train will simply become a daily SAS-ORD train.

3) Expand service along the route, including multiple SAS-HOU trains and at least 2 more trains running between NOL and Florida.

4) Increase speeds along the route from the current average of 42 mph to 70 mph. This may require 110 mph sections in the busiest areas, like SAS-HOU.

5) Introduce the overnight train. Or a Houston-Sanford autotrain. Whatever works best.

Note: An autotrain can be introduced as early as after step 3.

Background step: Purchase more equipment and rolling stock.

Of course, it's pretty pie-in-the-sky as far as current politics goes..

Quite frankly, my pie-in-the-sky plan is a daily LAX-NYP express train that goes through the Sunset route, then parallels I-20 through Dallas and Louisiana, then follows the route of the Crescent.

 

[pebbleworm]

Since I live in San Francisco, I'd like to see a re-born Medfly. We'll see.

 

[GiantsFan]

Since I live in San Francisco, I'd like to see a re-born Medfly. We'll see.

I vote for a overnight SF-LA train

 

[George Harris]

4) Increase speeds along the route from the current average of 42 mph to 70 mph. This may require 110 mph sections in the busiest areas, like SAS-HOU.

To get much beyond today's best, and certainly to get beyond the 1950's era best on most lines would require a considerably amount of alignment work, as in curve revisions.

An outstanding example of this would be the Crescent's line between Atlanta and Birmingham. It takes 4 hours to go 165 miles, and is probably within 10 to 15 minutes of the best time ever operated on this route. The line has a 79 mph speed limit. It is not because of lots of slack in the schedule or freight train interference. It is because of the multitude of curves that require the speed to be restricted to 50 mph and less, much in the 40 to 45 mph range. If the speed limit were to be raised to 90 mph or even 110 mph, it would be meaningless. The only way to get more speed out of this segment is to do some serious rebuilding to eliminate the multiple small radius curves.

Conversely, if the Meridian to Dallas train were ever added, it could be much faster than the old ICRR's trains 205 and 208. Why? This was an unsignaled secondary main with a speed limit that was probably either 55 mph or 59 mph, and maybe less. Since being absorbed by KCS it has gotten new rail, CTC signals, and additional sidings. Some improvement, but not a lot could be made in run times between Meridian and Vicksburg, as there are enough curves in this part that the average speed would go up only about 5 mph with a 79 mph speed limit instead of a 59 mph speed limit. (There would also be some time saved by not having the lengthy stops of the ICRR trains.) But, once across the Mississippi River, the line is very close to straight with only a few areas where speeds would need to be reduced below the line speed. In this portion a 79 mph limit instead of a 59 mph limit should result in an average speed increase of about 15 mph. Going to 110 would probably enable about another 10 mph increase in average speed on this portion.

Given that KCS and NS poured in the money they did because of increased freight traffic, it is unlikely that there is much in the way of spare capacity, so if Amtrak wants to come aboard and have a train with decent run time, they had better bring their checkbook so that additional sidings and possibly some second main can be added.

 

[George Harris]

For the all sleeper trains: At one point Chicago to New York had three. By A day, there were none, but still more than one train a day.

We would be far better off by going to at least 4 trains per direction with arrivals and departures scattered throughout the day. And, while doing this add trains on connecting lines. The Amtrak system is so skeletal it does not even make a good skeleton. Add bones before thinking of fleshing them out.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

If amtrak would stop getting its budget cut it would still have most of the routes it did when it started. Allot of routes went bye bye during the carter cuts among others. If those cuts didn't take place allot of routes like the desert wind would still be running along with all viewliner trains.

 

[Anderson]

The Desert Wind was dropped under Clinton, not Carter. Was there a major cut to the line under Carter as well?

Edit: It was dropped, not cut, as I originally said.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Since I live in San Francisco, I'd like to see a re-born Medfly. We'll see.

I vote for a overnight SF-LA train

That, in the past would have been Southern Pacific's Lark. I have seen shots of that beautiful pullman streamliner with 17 or 18 cars.

It was a "party train". A neat touch on it was the Lark Cub which was an articulated (joined together three cars)full diner, full kitchen and full lounge.

And it, and other trains, actually did serve San Francisco proper. Third Street.

Thee was a separate train called the Oakland Lark which left Oakland Pier and joined the bigger Lark at San Jose.

Of course in latter years it declined in amenities and started carrying coaches, thus losing its exslusiveness.

 

[Tony]

Would not a more recent example be the American Orient Express (aka GrandLuxe Rail Journeys)? It was all sleepers, no?

And it went bankrupt in 2008. :blink:

 

[jis]

In my experience, all sleeper trains work well only if several different levels of service are provided. This would mean adding cheper sleeping accommodation for those that do not have a king's ransom handy to pay for travels.

 

[the_traveler]

Would not a more recent example be the American Orient Express (aka GrandLuxe Rail Journeys)? It was all sleepers, no?

And it went bankrupt in 2008. :blink:

I do think AOE was all sleepers, but it was not Amtrak! And it had a set schedule to visit places, not travel from (say) CHI to LAX!

It would (say) travel to Yellowstone NP, stop for the day, then at night move to Grand Teton NP, stay the day, then at night travel to another NP, stay the day, move at night to another NP, etc... Plus it cost much moola!

So unless you had a lot of extra cash, and wanted to spend a week to go from (say) Yellowstone to the Grand Canyon, you probably would not take it! Many already complain that it takes 2 nights to get from CHI to LAX!

(But not us - we want it longer!

)

 

[Tony]

I do think AOE was all sleepers, but it was not Amtrak! And it had a set schedule to visit places, not travel from (say) CHI to LAX!

Didn't AOE "hitch" a bunch of their cars to the end of an Amtrak Silver, and do the travel from WAS to MIA, and back.

Though, I guess when they were "hitched" to a Silver, they weren't technically an "all sleeper" train anymore. Though, I don't think passengers were allowed to go between the two train sub-sets.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

If amtrak would stop getting its budget cut it would still have most of the routes it did when it started. Allot of routes went bye bye during the carter cuts among others. If those cuts didn't take place allot of routes like the desert wind would still be running along with all viewliner trains.

Carter's cuts mostly removed a lot of stupid, unprofitable, politically driven jokes.

Beacon Hill: A pointless joke of a train between PVD and NHV, its elimination went unnoticed as they simply made the train leaving 5 minutes before it run locally.

The Champion: A wasted third train on the least desired routing of the Florida trains, its passing went almost unnoticed as the Silver Meteor duplicator, the Palmetto, was extended to Tampa and Miami to compensate.

The Hilltopper: One of the famed Harley Stagger's trains, this train was known for its ridership, which could be in the single digits south of Alexandria.

The Blue Ridge: Pure commuter train. Didn't belong on federally subsidized inter-city rail. Not surprisingly, MARC runs a train on the same routing to the same stations. Pfui.

Shenandoah: Like the Hilltopper, this trains most notable feature was something that wasn't on it. Namely passengers.

Michigan Executive: Yet another commuter train, Amtrak had no business operating it without Michigan subsidies.

North Star: Same drill. Wonderful train... if only people had ridden it.

North Coast Hiawatha: Between the Empire Builder and the NCH, there would be enough passengers to justify a train. Unsurprisingly, on the NCH's discontinuance, the Empire Builder started to make some sense.

The Floridian: A Chicago-Florida train makes supreme sense. When they take 48 hours on the card, and frequently run 10-12 hours late, that's different. Taking the Broadway Limited to connect to a Silver was faster and made more sense. Which is why the would-be riders generally did so.

 

[dlynbid]

Would not a more recent example be the American Orient Express (aka GrandLuxe Rail Journeys)? It was all sleepers, no?

And it went bankrupt in 2008. :blink:

And when it begins its 'new life' in 2012 it is slated to only operate as a 'day train' between Washington DC and the Greenbrier Resort in WV (along the east end of the Cardinal Route) Sadly no sleepers and no diners...

See post:

January 2011: the 15 passenger cars purchased from Xanterra Parks and Resorts’ American Railway Explorer (formerly owned and used for luxury tours by GrandLuxe Rail Journeys and before that American Orient Express) were sighted being towed on an Amtrak special move to Pottstown, PA to be restored for the Greenbrier Resort’s special train slated to start July 2, 2012 from Washington, DC to The Greenbrier Resort. The new owner, Mr. Justice, also owns a stake in the Kentucky Derby.The eight (8) green cars had already been repainted in the new American Railway Explorer color scheme. The blue and beige were the colors of the old AOE / GLR livery, and the primer gray cars were ready for the new ARE paint job when the company ceased operations and canceled the project in August 2010.

The trip from D.C. to the Greenbrier is about 6 hours, meaning the new enterprise, if it comes to fruition, will operate as a ‘day train’ with no sleepers, and no diners. Fitting somehow, since some of these cars once stopped at the Greenbrier when the American European Express first began service in the late 1980’s.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Would not a more recent example be the American Orient Express (aka GrandLuxe Rail Journeys)? It was all sleepers, no?

And it went bankrupt in 2008. :blink:

Well it is sort of a matter of terminology. I, speaking for myself, would consider that Amtrak trains and the pre Amtrak to which I referred fall into the category of regular, commercial, daily or near daily trains with people traveling for all kinds of reasons.

From that standpoint, the AOE would not fall into quite the same thing. Neither, for that matter, would a steam engine excursion.

Many times when I try to explain my train travels to bewildered friends, they sometimes latch on to "tour" to help it make sense to them. Many people cannot comprehend that we still have daily trains with people traveling for multitudes of reasons.

 

[dlagrua]

In my experience, all sleeper trains work well only if several different levels of service are provided. This would mean adding cheper sleeping accommodation for those that do not have a king's ransom handy to pay for travels.

That is correct. In the past most all sleeper trains had at least three levels of accomodations. Some of these were the Pullman section, the drawing room, the single bedroom (roomette) and the delux bedroom. The Pullman sections were just bunkbeds that made up into a bed with another being pulled down from above. There were no doors and only a curtain separated you from the aisle. Point is that it was a very affordable accomodation, actually only a few bucks higher in price than a coach ticket. The other accomodations were far more expensive and typically purchased by the more affluent and business travelers.

Todays roomettes and bedrooms can double, triple or even quadruple your ticket price. That is why on most Amtrak routes you will see 4 coaches and two sleepers. On some routes where there is high demand,more sleepers could probably be offered and sold, but funding is not available for adding any at the present time. Even if budget limitations were not a problem the fact remains that the majority of Amtrak passengers travel in coach and appreciate the more competitive fares. My preference is for a sleeper but since the coaches are busy, there must be a need for this type of travel. Why make it more expensive for those traveling on a budget with an all sleeper train?

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

In my experience, all sleeper trains work well only if several different levels of service are provided. This would mean adding cheper sleeping accommodation for those that do not have a king's ransom handy to pay for travels.

Pre Amtrak sleepers came with several kinds of space and numerous floor plans. There were sections, roomettes,duplex roomettes, double bedrooms,, single bedrooms, compartments, drawing rooms and that rarest of all, the Master Room, which had a shower. Only a handful of trains had them. Actually the CZ has a drawing room which had a shower.

And of course do not forget slumbercoaches.

Amtrak eventually narrowed down its inherited sleepers to 10 roomettes 6 double bedrooms, but note there were many kinds of floor plans than that.

 

[zephyr17]

A historical point. The all-Pullman trains were marketed to, and patronized by, business travelers. As an example, Chevron had rooms blocked and reserved on The Lark on an ongoing basis. The schedules were pretty much designed to deliver a businessman to his destination at or near the beginning of the business day, and departed near the end of the day in the late afternoon early evening. This includes the 20th Century, the Broadway Limited, the Lark and the Super Chief. When business travelers deserted the market, the all-Pullman trains started disappearing. The Super Chief and El Capitan were combined into one operational train in 1958. The Lark started carrying coaches in the same year, IIRC. The last truly all-Pullman operation was arguably the Broadway Limited, which lost its all-Pullman status when the traditional Broadway was discontinued, with the name being reassigned to the train previously known as The General. By the time of Amtrak, there were NO all sleeper trains, although trains like the Super Chief-El Capitan and the Panama Limited-Magnolia Star had their Pullmans and coaches go by different names, and in the case of the Super Chief, maintained completely separate dining and lounge facilities for the coach and Pullman passengers.

Unless you foresee a return to the rails of long-distance business travelers, I doubt there would be enough of a market to support all-sleeping car trains today. They've pretty much been gone for 50 years, and Amtrak's market today, outside the corridors, are leisure travelers. I would rather see increased frequency on long distance routes were there might be a market, with trains that are about 12 hours off the existing services, so most cities would have some service at reasonable hours.

The all-Pullman trains were the flagships of their railroads, and were maintained in style by many, even at a loss, with the argument that the were basically advertisements to shippers traveling on business. I don't think that could apply today, otherwise you'd see UP in the passenger business.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Actually, the El Capitan and Super Chief ran together when demand was not such that running them separately made sense. Otherwise, they'd run in tandem as different sections of the same train. This practice extended into Amtrak, and sometimes the Super Chief would run on its own. The last run of the Super Chief was in early 1972. After that, Amtrak ran the two trains combined, and in 1973, the practice ended once and for all when Amtrak removed the first-class heritage diner from the Super Chief/El Capitan. In early 1974, when Amtrak removed the Pleasure Dome from the train is when Santa Fe told Amtrak that they could no longer call the train the Super Chief and it became the Southwest Limited.

 

[zephyr17]

Actually, the El Capitan and Super Chief ran together when demand was not such that running them separately made sense. Otherwise, they'd run in tandem as different sections of the same train. This practice extended into Amtrak, and sometimes the Super Chief would run on its own. The last run of the Super Chief was in early 1972. After that, Amtrak ran the two trains combined, and in 1973, the practice ended once and for all when Amtrak removed the first-class heritage diner from the Super Chief/El Capitan. In early 1974, when Amtrak removed the Pleasure Dome from the train is when Santa Fe told Amtrak that they could no longer call the train the Super Chief and it became the Southwest Limited.

Actually, much of the time when 17 & 18 ran in two sections, single level coaches and some kind of dining service (lunch counter car) also ran in first 17/18 (Super Chief section) along with the Pullmans*. They also did run exclusive Pullman some of the time, but it definitely could and did carry coaches. The trains ran as separate sections in the summer and Christmas seasons when demand was high. The El Capitan lost its own train number (21/22) in 1958, though, and after that if separated, ran as a second section.

And it wasn't a "heritage" diner. It was just a diner; the term "heritage" only started being used to the older equipment after HEP conversion (and delivery of Amtrak's own Amfleets and Superliners), which was considerably later. It was just the second, single level diner for the Pullman passengers. In the early 70's it was all just equipment, and the El Cap Hi-Level diner was of the same rough generation (a bit newer, the 600-series diners for the Super Chief were built in 1950, the Hi-Level diners in 1955).

*Fred Frailey, Twilight of the Great Trains, pp 60, 70