BNSFboy
Train Attendant
According to Amtrak on Facebook, Amtrak has just announced that they will replace and add Acela Express trainsets to add capacity.
Amtrak adding more Acela trainsets
- Thread starter BNSFboy
- Start date
Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:
- Status
Ryan
Court Jester
Shortline
Conductor
Yep. In about 15 years. Gotta love our procurement system. We put a man on the moon in a matter of months but can't build a train in less than 2 decades.
BNSFboy
Train Attendant
Yes but remember not three weeks ago they said they could not afford it and were backing out.
MattW
Conductor
What Amtrak was backing out of was just the 40 new Acela cars, this is for whole new trainsets.
Last edited by a moderator:
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
They backed out because the price was not justifiable. Actually Amtrak IG Office recommended not going through with the price and conditions that the vendor (single source) was offering, including a ban on any audit! It was a good call to walk away from it IMHO.
Last edited by a moderator:
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
I'lll be happy when I see them.
benjibear
Conductor
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2011
- Messages
- 1,078
Did Amtrak have the funding for the 40 cars already in place? If they did, maybe that can jump start this project quicker.
Either way this is probably good that they are looking ahead and not waiting until the current Acela sets start breaking down. This is Amtrak's cash cow, so you want to keep in fed well.
Also, what would happen to the old sets? Will they go through a rebuild or just stay the way they are? Do you think Amtrak would expand to three levels of service on the NEC, would they remain Acela, or will they go to NER? Maybe we will get to see them run on the Keystone some day.
Either way this is probably good that they are looking ahead and not waiting until the current Acela sets start breaking down. This is Amtrak's cash cow, so you want to keep in fed well.
Also, what would happen to the old sets? Will they go through a rebuild or just stay the way they are? Do you think Amtrak would expand to three levels of service on the NEC, would they remain Acela, or will they go to NER? Maybe we will get to see them run on the Keystone some day.
cirdan
Engineer
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2011
- Messages
- 3,666
I don't know if it's still the case but for a while they were talking about redeploying them on the Keystone Corridor.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
The various systems that need to work in an integrated way are owned by said one supplier. The only hope of getting any cars in any reasonable time that would actually work was getting them from said supplier. Acelas are integrated sets with many interlinked systems. They are not just cars that can be connected up with cupler, air and a couple of control connectors.
Point taken, but we did not put a man on the moon "in a matter of months."
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
Do you really believe that man was put on the moon in a few months? Or is tha ta poetic flourish to make a point?
G
Guest
Guest
When did NASA put in the order to build the capsule, lander, and S5 rocket, that was used for Apollo 11?
The Acela cars are already designed. Amtrak just needs some more built.
Ryan
Court Jester
In a world with an infinite amount of money, that isn't a problem.
Here in the real world, where one company owns the rights to the design, this gives them the ability to demand an arbitrarily large amount of money for an outdated design. Not exactly the best procurement decision to make.
(I guess we really are going to have two threads discussing this?)
Here in the real world, where one company owns the rights to the design, this gives them the ability to demand an arbitrarily large amount of money for an outdated design. Not exactly the best procurement decision to make.
(I guess we really are going to have two threads discussing this?)
I think Amtrak may have suggested using the Acela in 1 planning document, but most of the talk about using the Acelas for the Keystone service is coming from railfans. The Acelas are business class seating and have a first class car (which could be swapped out in reducing the total number of consists) which don't match the Keystone service. Ok, the seats could be swapped out for more coach seats, but that will cost money.
The Acela trainsets with 2 engines, unique design also have to cost more to operate than the current Keystone equipment and presumably more than replacement cars for the Amfleets. PA is providing the subsidy for the Keystone service and is facing a budget question of how to pay the full subsidy amount next year. Why would they pay more for keeping the Acelas running? The other big problem is that at the current rate it will be 10 years or more before all the Keystone East stations have high level platforms. No, the chances that the Acelas would be used for regular Keystone service are small.
What happens to the Acelas? Keep in mind that it will probably be 4-5 years at the earliest before the first Acela II would be in revenue service. Figuring Amtrak orders 25? to 30? Acela II trainsets, the delivery and testing of the new trainsets will likely take 2 to 4? years. As the Acela Is are phased out, they would likely stay in reserve for a few years in case there is a problem with the Acela Iis and maybe for additional capacity at the peak Holiday periods. Eventually the Acela Is will follow the NY State turboliners (which were sold this week at auction) to the scrap yard.
For the lunar lander? 1962. For the command module, the first contract was awarded in November, 1961 (which underwent considerable re-designs). The Saturn V design was picked in 1962. Then a LOT of money was spent and resources provided to land on the moon by 1969.
The point of the Acela II plan is to get a new HSR design, something that should be faster, closer to an existing newer design, and if it can be done right, cost less to maintain (fewer unique parts for one).
cirdan
Engineer
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2011
- Messages
- 3,666
Often, you negotiate options to avoid that. So when placing the initial order there will be a rider somewhere in the contract limiting how much you're going to have to pay for further units of the same type.
cirdan
Engineer
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2011
- Messages
- 3,666
All that is true of course.
But bear in mind that SNCF still has most of the TGV sets of the first generation in service, and of those that are gone it is mostly because of accidents. And these are now beyond the 30 year mark and counting. Japan was still running Shinkansen sets of the first generation until some years ago, and these were even older when they went. So HS trains can last a long time if properly taken care of.
Older stock may be more expensive to maintain due to such issues as obsolete technology and scarcity of parts, but this is offset by lower capital costs as the book value will typically have been virtually written off by the time you reach the 20 year mark or so.
So far we have been told that some of the ACS-64 will be used on the Keystones. This solution would appear to exclude the use of Acelas. But that's not going to be cheap either.
I can well imagine the ACS-64s will replace AE7-7 on the NEC first of all, leaving the Keystone as it is for a while longer. What happens after that may be a political decison as much as a technical one.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
I may be wrong on this since it is based on very vague recollection. I think there was a set of options with the original order, since the original order was supposed to be for more sets and the money could not be found, so the balance was put in options lasting 10 years or some such, which obviously has expired.
But the basic point that people seem to be missing is that Amtrak has no intention to buy any more Tier II equipment. The current Acelas will last another 10 to 12 years. If the 40 cars are actually acquired they will come in around 2014 and will of necessity have to be retired with the Acela sets in 10 years after they go into service. This would be a very poor use of the money paid for them even if they were priced reasonably.
In addition a big catching point was that Bombardier was insisting that an Audit Clause be removed from the proposed contract, i.e. they wanted to remove the possibility of being Audited should they go over budget. Naturally the IG baulked on that, and also on the proposed price.
The current plan is to get rid of all AEM-7s and replace with ACS-64, which implies that at least for a time the Keystones will be powered by ACS-64s.
Then some Acelas get cascaded to Keystone or not will become an issue after the Acela IIs go on line. There still also remains the possibility that the Acela I pool will be reconfigured into some fewer number of 8 car sets. There are all sorts of possibilities to consider, and the range of possibilities will depend on how many Acela II sets can be acquired in what timeframe.
Last edited by a moderator:
Amtrak was planning to pay for the 40 Acela coach cars with a government backed FRA RRIF loan. Discussed in the FY13 proposed budget document. With the acquisition of the 40 Acela coach cars dropped and a contract and 1st progress payment for an Acela II order now years off, that may allow more room in the nearer term for other equipment orders - options on the current CAF contract, issuing an RFP for a first large order of single level coach cars. But I would expect that the Amtrak board won't make any decisions or moves until we get to the other side of the current fiscal cliff and debt ceiling dust up and they have a finalized FY2013 budget. If there is a final FY2013 budget before the end of the fiscal year.
- Status
