Amtrak booking website/issues/timetables removed

[neroden]

While I agree with your sentiments regarding timetables, that’s a pretty strong statement.
Didn’t know you possessed that power.

Might take years. But I've got a pretty good sense at this point of when a bureaucrat has done something stupid enough to get the politicians to stomp on them.

Three-a-week service wasn't stupid enough. Awful food wasn't stupid enough. Dishonest accounting wasn't stupid enough.

This is stupid enough.

I -- and the rest of you -- can get (a) every state DOT which pays for service, (b) every state politician who supports their state DOT paying for service, (c) every member of Congress who supports paying for service, (d) people in federal DOT who are paying for service to go to Amtrak with the question "*** are you thinking? Where are the timetables?" Everyone who rides a train at all understands the importance of publishing the timetables for marketing, which is why this is going to be easy. Not necessarily *quick*. But it's remarkably easy to explain to pretty much anyone why it's a problem.

 

[west point]

Just got the Microsoft notice that IE support will end next year. Is that going to cause some problems ?Are

 

[zephyr17]

Probably not. IE has be obsolescent for years and years. Website works okay on Chrome and Firefox.

 

[daybeers]

Probably not. IE has be obsolescent for years and years. Website works okay on Chrome and Firefox.

Amtrak's Arrow reservation system has also been obsolescent for decades and decades. Their IT department is incompetent. Or is it management? We'll never know I guess.

 

[zephyr17]

Amtrak's Arrow reservation system has also been obsolescent for decades and decades. Their IT department is incompetent. Or is it management? We'll never know I guess.

Well, their core system is old, ancient, their implementation dating from the 70s and the core system older than that. ARROW is a customized one-off of the old Sabre American Airlines resevation system, which I actually think dated from the late 60's, early 70's at the latest. It is "mapped and wrapped" with interfaces that allow it to communicate with more modern technologies.

The core system is entirely unable to communicate with any browser. Or the internet. Such things did not exist when it was created.

So the age of the core system has nothing to do with IE, it predates IE by decades.

I also do not think that that Amtrak's IT is particularly competent. It actually scares me to think of the layers that old system is wrapped in and the fact that the wrapping almost certainly "just growed" especially because cash strapped Amtrak probably did not design for maintainability, just immediate functionality. That kind of development often winds up in an incredibly tangled hairball. Still Arrow's age and IE support really have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

 

[daybeers]

Yes I know it's very ancient, that's why I said it was obsolete I realize they don't have a connection, but just thought I'd point out a funny comparison as we were discussing updates to Amtrak's app.

Yes, one look at their IT department and you can see the problems of the entire company. Funny how that is with IT.

 

[Anderson]

Well, their core system is old, ancient, their implementation dating from the 70s and the core system older than that. ARROW is a customized one-off of the old Sabre American Airlines resevation system, which I actually think dated from the late 60's, early 70's at the latest. It is "mapped and wrapped" with interfaces that allow it to communicate with more modern technologies.

The core system is entirely unable to communicate with any browser. Or the internet. Such things did not exist when it was created.

So the age of the core system has nothing to do with IE, it predates IE by decades.

I also do not think that that Amtrak's IT is particularly competent. It actually scares me to think of the layers that old system is wrapped in and the fact that the wrapping almost certainly "just growed" especially because cash strapped Amtrak probably did not design for maintainability, just immediate functionality. That kind of development often winds up in an incredibly tangled hairball. Still Arrow's age and IE support really have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

I mean, the other side of this is that Amtrak hasn't needed to significantly alter functionality until "recently" (really, the last 2-4 years, when seat assignments started cropping up).

 

[dlagrua]

Funny thing is that Flynn is a former airline executive and if you compare how easy it is to book a flight you would think that this kind of system would carry over. With airlines you can get all the prices in all the classes of service online in an instant. You can also see price options offered for dates of travel. Amtraks booking system seems as though they are keeping things a secret until you pry the info away after going though a number of steps. Proof of this can be seen in the way they blocked out Amsnag. One can only ask; is this the best system to attract ridership? I think not.

 

[railiner]

Well, their core system is old, ancient, their implementation dating from the 70s and the core system older than that. ARROW is a customized one-off of the old Sabre American Airlines resevation system, which I actually think dated from the late 60's, early 70's at the latest. It is "mapped and wrapped" with interfaces that allow it to communicate with more modern technologies.

The core system is entirely unable to communicate with any browser. Or the internet. Such things did not exist when it was created.

So the age of the core system has nothing to do with IE, it predates IE by decades.

I also do not think that that Amtrak's IT is particularly competent. It actually scares me to think of the layers that old system is wrapped in and the fact that the wrapping almost certainly "just growed" especially because cash strapped Amtrak probably did not design for maintainability, just immediate functionality. That kind of development often winds up in an incredibly tangled hairball. Still Arrow's age and IE support really have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

You've got the origin of Arrow right, but as far as the competency of Amtrak's IT department...not so sure...
Considering what limited means they have to work with, perhaps they should be applauded for making the ancient system still somewhat functional?

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Funny thing is that Flynn is a former airline executive and if you compare how easy it is to book a flight you would think that this kind of system would carry over. With airlines you can get all the prices in all the classes of service online in an instant. You can also see price options offered for dates of travel. Amtraks booking system seems as though they are keeping things a secret until you pry the info away after going though a number of steps. Proof of this can be seen in the way they blocked out Amsnag. One can only ask; is this the best system to attract ridership? I think not.

How long has Flynn been CEO? Not long enough to do what you think he should have done by now. It appears to me that they are setting up to show date ranges for prices. Currently you can see available trains over a range of dates. They may be planning to add the cost part too, but that will involve more programming.

Flynn has not worked for commercial airlines, so why would he would carry over their systems?
"has more than four decades of transportation and logistics experience, having worked in multiple modes of transportation, including rail freight, maritime and aviation. Most recently, he served 13 years as Chairman, President and CEO of Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings, Inc., which serves the global air freight, military charter and passenger charter markets. He also held senior leadership roles with CSX Transportation, Sea-Land Services, Inc., and GeoLogistics Corp."

Flynn comes from a RR family.
"Flynn comes from a railroading family. His father was a Conrail engineer; his uncle, an Amtrak engineer; and his brother, an Amtrak conductor and local union chair."

https://www.railwayage.com/passenge...-veteran-flynn-to-succeed-anderson-at-amtrak/

 

[WWW]

Just because Amtrak hired ex-airline CEO's doesn't mean these folks brought along the fancy airline computer technology.

Disgusting when you book an airline seat (an actual seat by number and class location) that the same can't be done on Amtrak.
You book on line and have to still call Amtrak for a specific Roomette Bedroom etc.

Case in point I booked two roomette seats and not being terribly familiar with the bedroom arrangements noticed that the
two roomettes were staggered and not across the aisle - no way to change the seating - have to call Amtrak and it took a
supervisor override to do what I wanted. Fortunately caught this in time - would have perhaps been a worse off mess if I
had waited for the Conductor or Car Attendant to fix at the moment of departure.

A simple matter of showing a bedroom mask of available roomettes/bedrooms when booking and selecting one or more of those.
May be of more importance of single selection a roomette on one scenic side or another of a given train.
Once small consolation there are no middle seats bedrooms on Amtrak to foul the nest that one sleeps in !

 

[Ryan]

Proof of this can be seen in the way they blocked out Amsnag.

The demise of Amsnag has just as much to do with the developer ceasing to chase Amtrak's ever-changing website as it does anything perceived malice on Amtrak's part. Do you have any proof that Amtrak deliberately took action to stop Among from working, or is this just more arranging the "facts" to suit your predetermined conclusion?

 

[me_little_me]

The demise of Amsnag has just as much to do with the developer ceasing to chase Amtrak's ever-changing website as it does anything perceived malice on Amtrak's part. Do you have any proof that Amtrak deliberately took action to stop Among from working, or is this just more arranging the "facts" to suit your predetermined conclusion?

I for one noticed that when I tried to book a trip for a certain date, then didn't like the prices and tried 5 or so more times changing dates and cities (e.g. going from Atlanta instead of Greenville, SC - both of which I have used as starting points), the site stopped giving me the train choices any more. That issue occurred multiple times over multiple days of searching for trips. That made me suspect that they are, indeed, blocking amsnag by not allowing a lot of requests in a short amount of time from a single site. So I would say it is likely true what dlagrua said.

 

[Ryan]

Flooding queries is a way to execute a denial of service attack. Limiting the ability to do that has significantly more to do with preventing the site from being attacked by bad actors than it does trying to deliberately target Amsnag.

Yes, the end effect may be the same (depending on how many queries and how quickly Amsnag makes them), but the claim of intent is without merit and completely unproven.

 

[me_little_me]

The demise of Amsnag has just as much to do with the developer ceasing to chase Amtrak's ever-changing website as it does anything perceived malice on Amtrak's part. Do you have any proof that Amtrak deliberately took action to stop Among from working, or is this just more arranging the "facts" to suit your predetermined conclusion?

I for one noticed that when I tried to book a trip for a certain date, then didn't like the prices and tried 5 or so more times changing dates and cities (e.g. going from Atlanta instead of Greenville, SC - both of which I have used as starting points), the site stopped giving me the train choices any more. That issue occurred multiple times over multiple days of searching for trips. That made me suspect that they are, indeed, blocking amsnag by not allowing a lot of requests in a short amount of time from a single site. So I would say it is likely true what

Flooding queries is a way to execute a denial of service attack. Limiting the ability to do that has significantly more to do with preventing the site from being attacked by bad actors than it does trying to deliberately target Amsnag.

Yes, the end effect may be the same (depending on how many queries and how quickly Amsnag makes them), but the claim of intent is without merit and completely unproven.

Well, I couldn't possibly do any flooding. Using two fingers to enter data even though I am pretty fast at it, would be more like a slop drip.

 

[zephyr17]

You've got the origin of Arrow right, but as far as the competency of Amtrak's IT department...not so sure...
Considering what limited means they have to work with, perhaps they should be applauded for making the ancient system still somewhat functional?

Well, whover is designing their UI is pretty bad at it. Normally, that would be its own team whose members know didly squat about the old technology underlying it.

I agree whatever team is maintaining the interface layer has its hands full and is doing difficult work. As to the core system, they are probably scared to touch the source code (assuming they still have it). Probably the seat assignment thing was existing functionality they gingerly turned on, since it was core functionality in Sabre, and they used the capability for sleepers all along.

 

[zephyr17]

Flooding queries is a way to execute a denial of service attack. Limiting the ability to do that has significantly more to do with preventing the site from being attacked by bad actors than it does trying to deliberately target Amsnag.

Yes, the end effect may be the same (depending on how many queries and how quickly Amsnag makes them), but the claim of intent is without merit and completely unproven.

I tend to agree, I also think the recent changes to the UI made the screen/HTML scraping methodology Amsnag used to gather data a lot more difficult. I doubt Amsnag was on their radar, it was likely just collateral damage from the UI changes and tightening security.

But if I want to do a fare search on multiple days, I'll make sure and flip between my native connection and a VPN though. That ought to give me a few more tries.

 

[Ryan]

Well, I couldn't possibly do any flooding.

Except for the part where you did and the website stopped returning results for you.

 

[me_little_me]

Except for the part where you did and the website stopped returning results for you.

5-6 attempts over 5-6 minutes is not a flood.

As to the IT people, I don't blame them. My guess is that maintenance on Arrow is like maintenance on cars or engines - put off until congress comes up with lots of billions to do it. The $80B fantasized for Amtrak included lots of billions for "deferred maintenance"

 

[Anderson]

You know what? Screw it, this is the last straw for me with Amtrak for a while. I don't think I'm going to bother looking them up again for most of this year. I'll see if my parents or my sister can use my upgrade cards. I'd rather drive than frak about with Amtrak's stupid games anymore. To hell with them.

 

[Anderson]

Funny thing is that Flynn is a former airline executive and if you compare how easy it is to book a flight you would think that this kind of system would carry over. With airlines you can get all the prices in all the classes of service online in an instant. You can also see price options offered for dates of travel. Amtraks booking system seems as though they are keeping things a secret until you pry the info away after going though a number of steps. Proof of this can be seen in the way they blocked out Amsnag. One can only ask; is this the best system to attract ridership? I think not.

Here's the thing: Amtrak's current functionality more closely resembles that over at an airline now than it used to in this respect. Airlines don't really publish "timetables" as I think we tend to think of them for the most part, because 99%+ of all flights are a simple A-to-B operation (the few exceptions usually being either rural service milk runs, fifth freedom oddballs, or "something wonky Southwest is doing"). Putting in two cities and getting a spit-out of times is standard.

Amtrak is wonky because there are times when knowing intermediate stops is very useful (for example, managing connections around Washington...one can have a reason for transferring in ALX instead of WAS if a train is running late; or moving a pickup or dropoff to save a friend time/make a train because one was running late). None of this generally applies for airlines (the possible exception being making a tight connection or handling a blown connection).

 

[west point]

About the reservation / arrow system.
I grew up on Sabre and the EAL system whose name that eludes me. The EAL system was better but for many reasons got lost in the dim past. The EAL system did a clean sheet change late 1970s that was what caused it to be better than Sabre / Arrow. They are now completely obsolete due to many new applications Expect that the IT persons who now work on Arrow are quickly retiring and not much institutional knowledge is able to be passed on ?

What Amtrak needs to do is a clean sheet change of their IT. That is of course subject to lost info. I have no idea how to do that but suspect that Amtrak would run the old system and the new system would be effective on a certain date. OLD Data might need to be located on a different site that might be left in operation for several years waiting for time to transfer the data.

Another concern is hackers getting into the old system causing untold mischief ?

 

[Ryan]

5-6 attempts over 5-6 minutes is not a flood.

My experience shows that it takes significantly more than that to trigger it.

At the end of the day, there is still zero evidence that Amsnag was directly targeted. With a little bit of work, one could figure out what the rate limits are and program Amsnag to not exceed it.

 

[EchoSierra]

Just because ARROW is old (and possibly obsolete) doesn't make it useless. Someone said it's based on Sabre?

American Airlines and Jetblue both currently use Sabre. It's gotten facelifts, new interfaces, but the back end is still the old system. I had access a few years ago, and typing [[AMK still connects to ARROW.
United Airlines uses SHARES which is a similarly old system, and will be 53 years old as of May 30th.
Your local chain retail store may or may not use some flavor of IBM 4690 OS for their cash register systems, which was originally released in 1985 and have received many rebrandings and facelifts (currently being marketed as Toshiba TCx Sky).

As long as ARROW can do what Amtrak wants it to do, there's no reason to fix what isn't broken. If there's a way to add new functionality to old systems, it will usually be less expensive and less distruptive than switching entirely to a new system.

 

[neroden]

ARROW cannot do what Amtrak needs it to do.

Amtrak's IT plan, a few years ago, involved rewriting it in C. It's mostly in machine language right now. If rewritten in C with coherent interfaces between modules, it could be upgraded to do what it needs to do.