Amtrak box cars
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George Harris
Engineer
The freight was part of Warrington's "Glidepath to self sufficiency" which in reality turned out to be the short route to insolvency. In it he managed to make the ones he needed to be supportive of him to be mad at him. Only the politicians who could not recognize reality if it came up and bit them in the butt thought he was doing good.
1. The freight railroads were unhappy because they perceived the business as possibly cream skimming off their business and, it increased train lengths so increased wear and tear on the tracks. Also it tended to tie up the mains for either loading/unloading or switching.
2. The passengers because of train delays due to loading/unloading or switching. Some schedules were lengthened and on-time performance declined.
3. Of course fuel consumption went up because train tonnage went up, so that when calculating fuel consumed per passenger mile, suddenly trains looked worse than anything else.
1. The freight railroads were unhappy because they perceived the business as possibly cream skimming off their business and, it increased train lengths so increased wear and tear on the tracks. Also it tended to tie up the mains for either loading/unloading or switching.
2. The passengers because of train delays due to loading/unloading or switching. Some schedules were lengthened and on-time performance declined.
3. Of course fuel consumption went up because train tonnage went up, so that when calculating fuel consumed per passenger mile, suddenly trains looked worse than anything else.
had8ley
Engineer
The only thing Amtrak won on this one was the lawsuit put up by the Class 1's fighting Amtrak's right to carry freight on pax trains. It was a complete loser in every other department especially in the monetary outlay. Funny thing; some of Amtraks newest equipment was the box cars bought to haul this freight. I see an occasional one in scrap yards adjacent to main lines that Amtrak runs on. And we're still running baggage cars and diners from the 50's...
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MattW
Conductor
Seriously, why couldn't they have converted the cars to baggage cars instead of buying what? 75 new baggage cars!?
the_traveler
Engineer
If you're talking about Express-Trak cars, when we were at the LA Yard in October, there are a line of something like 20 or more of them "waiting" for the next run!
Because the Express Trak cars are freight cars. They have no HEP pass through cables and no MU cables.
Additionally the 75 new baggage cars that Amtrak is planning on buying are half baggage cars/half crew dorms. Converting the freight cars would have been difficult, unless one basically left the crew without windows.
Shawn
Service Attendant
It would have been a cheap retro fit to have pass thru cables installed and use them temporarily if the current baggage cars are so defective. Not to mention, the doors would be more reliable!
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Yes, it would be cheap. But why do something that you don't need to do?
Amtrak needs crew dorms and they need baggage cars. It makes far more sense to try and sell the ExpressTrak cars and order new combined cars to save on fuel, rather than hauling around two cars to do the same job as one car.
battalion51
Engineer
The downside is that the demise of freight occurred around the same time that mail contracts came up. I agree with abandoning the RoadRailer business, but dropping the mail was the end of a tradition on trains. But given where things were at the time, it was probably the right move.
Passenger Trains carrying mail helped subsidize passenger trains operated by the railroads for many years. Even the mighty 20th Century Limited had a Railway Post Office car and carried priority overnight mail between New York and Chicago at a higher rate much as Fedex and UPS do today.
Trains carrying mail did not delay passenger trains like the type of freight Amtrak was carrying. While I was in college, I worked for the Post Office for 2 years. We use to get mail from the RPO on the passenger train that stopped at our city early every morning. There were also mail pouches that came from connecting trains that our train picked up at junctions with other railroads during the night. The Railway Post offices and bulk mail cars were very efficient ways of handling mail. In the mid 1960s, the railroads started delaying their trains which made the mail run late so the Post Office cancelled the RPOs. After an RPO on a train was cancelled, you could expect to see a train off notice in 2-3 months. From 1965-1969, many many mail contracts were cancelled followed by train discontinuances.
Trains carrying mail did not delay passenger trains like the type of freight Amtrak was carrying. While I was in college, I worked for the Post Office for 2 years. We use to get mail from the RPO on the passenger train that stopped at our city early every morning. There were also mail pouches that came from connecting trains that our train picked up at junctions with other railroads during the night. The Railway Post offices and bulk mail cars were very efficient ways of handling mail. In the mid 1960s, the railroads started delaying their trains which made the mail run late so the Post Office cancelled the RPOs. After an RPO on a train was cancelled, you could expect to see a train off notice in 2-3 months. From 1965-1969, many many mail contracts were cancelled followed by train discontinuances.
had8ley
Engineer
I think the only "run" they might make would be their last~ to the cutting torch or a short line.If you're talking about Express-Trak cars, when we were at the LA Yard in October, there are a line of something like 20 or more of them "waiting" for the next run!
transit54
Conductor
Yes, but its a special kind of freight that has traditionally been well integrated in the passenger business. Even today, most passenger airlines have first class mail contracts. If Amtrak were to acquire more baggage cars and routinely have sufficient space in them, I think mail would be a good way to fill the space. Not to say it will ever happen, though.
Since when has Amtrak ever said they were looking to order 75 of these cars? I hadn't heard about that till now. And what does a baggage/dorm look like? How much space does it have for baggage compared to a typical baggage car?
Amtrak VP Crosbie went before Congress late last year to outline Amtrak's needs & requests. That included 15 new single level sleepers, the baggage cars, and a few other things. You can find the full details here.
Hanno
OBS Chief
Has the purchase been approved and have orders been placed? If not, does anyone know when?
the_traveler
Engineer
When we were in LA, I saw the inside of a baggage car. You would have thought that there would be things like shelves or something in them - but the whole thing (at least the one I saw) was just all open floor! And with just 10-15% of the stops on a route (if even that much) even offering checked baggage service, that is a lot of wasted space. I would even think that 1/2 of the car would leave a lot of space. (Even a cabbage only uses 1/2 of the "car" for baggage. And a Superliner coach/baggage uses less than 1/2 of the lower level for baggage.)
So I can easily see a baggage/dorm being used instead. Plus, the rooms it would free up are more rooms that can be available!
printman2000
Engineer
I think another big disadvantage is they could not be accessed from inside the train. That would mean someone would have to get off the train, walk up to the car, open the door, climb in, find the baggage, then reverse all that after removing the baggage. Adds more time to station stops and would also be more physically demanding.
transit54
Conductor
Well, bags can be stacked. I used to work for JetBlue and towards the end of my time there was cross-trained to be able to work on the ramp. Aircraft cargo areas don't have shelves either. One of the first things you learned was how to efficiently stack bags and fit them all together in the most efficient way possible (and do it quickly). Obviously, a train is a bit more complex in that some bags need to be retrieved mid-route, which makes organization critical. On aircraft, cargo areas are divided into different 'bins' which are physically separated by either a wall or just nylon webbing. For instance, on thru-flights (flights where an aircraft stops, offloads some people and board some more and then continues on using the same flight number, bags continuing on would be segregated in their own bin as much as possible, so they would not have to be offloaded then reloaded.
I'd have to imagine baggage would have to have some sort of similarly organized stacking scheme in baggage cars. I just worry that as train ridership increases and trains become longer, it would be desirable to have full baggage cars. However, if a baggage dorm is set up so that the top level is all dorms and the bottom level is all baggage, I can see that being plenty of space.
Joel N. Weber II
Engineer
Do these cars have any differences vs normal freight cars?
printman2000
Engineer
I believe they will order single level baggage/dorm cars.
Also, the testimony mentioned above says 75 baggage cars. Where did the info that they will be baggage/dorms come from? I have heard that, just do not know where it came from.
the_traveler
Engineer
Your reply just verifies my reasons. If bags can be stacked, why would 1/2 a car not be enough room? :huh:
And if it is done as you say (top level dorm, bottom level baggage) that would mean the cars would be double deck cars. That would eliminate the possibility of them being used on any train passing through the BAL or NYP tunnels - which are 1/2 of all Amtrak routes!
sky12065
Conductor
After reading this thread it reminded me of an entertainer I haven't heard or even thought of for a long time.
to Boxcar Willie then check out a few of his other videos while there. Listening to him today even made me realize why I like listening to Willie Nelson! B)
to Boxcar Willie then check out a few of his other videos while there. Listening to him today even made me realize why I like listening to Willie Nelson! B)
Joel N. Weber II
Engineer
If the plan is to build 75 single level baggage/dorm cars, doesn't that mean that there'd be redundant crew dorm space on any Superliner trainset? Are there plans I don't remember seeing anyone talk about to convert the existing transdorms to 100% revenue space?
Also, on the Empire Builder and LSL, isn't there still potentially a need for crew to occupy space in what would otherwise be revenue sleeping cars because of how the trains split?
Also, on the Empire Builder and LSL, isn't there still potentially a need for crew to occupy space in what would otherwise be revenue sleeping cars because of how the trains split?
sky12065
Conductor
After reading this thread it reminded me of an entertainer I haven't heard or even thought of for a long time.
after posting my last message!
after posting my last message!
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had8ley
Engineer
That's already happening with the coach/baggage cars that were the converted old smoking section cars. Someone has to de-train and open the door and load and unload baggage then re-board.
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