Amtrak Derailment Philadelphia (5/12/2015)

[George K]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/15/us/amtrak-derailment-philadelphia-engineer-brandon-bostian.html?_r=1

In posts on the website Trainorders.com — where train enthusiasts and employees congregate — a writer who used the handle bwb6df and signed many of his posts as “Brandon Bostian” routinely chided railroad companies for not doing more to prevent accidents, saying in one post that he found the specter of human error “frightening.”

That writer also used other identifying information matching what is known about Mr. Bostian.

The Trainorders.com webmaster said in an email on Thursday, “Our privacy policy prevents us from sharing the identity of any member of the web site.” On Wednesday, other members of the site identified the handle bwb6df as belonging to Mr. Bostian and to the driver of the Philadelphia train; the webmaster deleted those posts, but they were viewable in an Internet cache.

The posts criticized a lack of safeguards to protect against human error, pointing out how fatigue, bad communication and “cutting corners” could lead to accidents. When others voiced skepticism of new safety technology, or dismissed the idea that an experienced engineer could make a simple mistake, the writer was often quick to comment to the contrary. The writer also said, “I wish the railroads had been more proactive in adopting” safety technology.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

The plot thickens. The NTSB says that the train accelerated from 70 to 100 mph within seconds not long before the accident.

Any speculation as to why that would have happened? As I mentioned to my wife, any engineer knows that to exceed the speed limit is a quick path to a new career.

Operator would be #1.

Train Motor control failure would be #2.

I would be much happier if the operator got confused and start to speed up too early. The motor control failure would be a bad for the fleet.

However the black boxes should of recorded the inputs by the operator. So that information should be know by the NTSB at this time.

Of course if the track had PTC this accident would of never happen.

I know Amtrak had a policy of filling in the gaps before the dead line, but did ever give a statement of when it was going to be done. Or a statement it was done?

8 dead people would like to know when.

 

[MichiganMom]

As always. LIsten to the people doing the job.

 

[MattW]

Unless you wish to feel the desire to bite through steel, don't go read the City-Data forum's politics forum thread on the crash :angry2:

 

[AmtrakBlue]

NTSB: Philadelphia train cars being taken to Delaware
http://www.delawareonline.com/story/news/local/2015/05/14/safety-system-prevented-train-crash/27314687/

 

[Guest]

No real answers for true cause from all angles as of yet. Other cases seem more clear than this one.

 

[neroden]

IDK about on the NEC, but train crews on the Wolverine call out the signals, speed changes, etc.

peter

No signals are called out on the NEC, since signal speed enforcement is already in place all over. There is nothing to be gained by calling out signals.

Actually, there is something to be gained, at least the way CSX does it. It may not be obvious so I'll explain it. They call out "(signal indication) AT (location)". It's a way of maintaining situational awareness regarding the location of the train. I actually have overhead (on the scanner) an engineer calling the wrong location, getting the location corrected by the conductor, following which the engineer called out the signal again with the correct location. This is a real benefit; call it an "anti-hypnosis" system, if you will. Being a solo engineer in a train and not talking to anyone for long periods is a good way to end up in a "road hypnosis" state.
Radio chatter which seems to have no function may actually have the function of keeping the engineer's mind focused.

 

[jis]

There is something to be said for that. The problem on NEC may be too many calls confusing everyone.

With technology available today putting a simple moving map on a display at the Engineer's seat may not be that expensive and will address this problem.

 

[John Bobinyec]

Does anyone have a close-up picture of the engineer's controls on these new engines?

jb

 

[who_is_easily_confused]

The plot thickens. The NTSB says that the train accelerated from 70 to 100 mph within seconds not long before the accident.

Now this confuses me. I thought earlier they said that the engineer had applied the brakes (the emergency brakes?) not long before the accident. Is that now not true?

 

[Ryan]

No, that's still true. Acceleration started about a minute before the crash, the emergency brakes were applied seconds before the crash.

 

[jis]

I would just draw people's attention to the observed fact that the acceleration started soon after the train exited the previous curve and leave it at that.

BTW as has been reported by AP quoting Amtrak, PTC will be fully operations on all segments of the NEC including where the accident happened, by the beginning of 2016. The FRA mandate requires that and it is scheduled to be met.

 

[benjibear]

I would just draw people's attention to the observed fact that the acceleration started soon after the train exited the previous curve and leave it at that.

BTW as has been reported by AP quoting Amtrak, PTC will be fully operations on all segments of the NEC including where the accident happened, by the beginning of 2016. The FRA mandate requires that and it is scheduled to be met.

The media is really hammering Amtrak for not having this done sooner and blaming Amtrak for this accident.

 

[PRR 60]

The Wall Street Journal picked up on the fact that speed enforcement could have been imposed on this curve without PTC by a simple "tweak" of the existing system. I have a feeling that Amtrak is going to get some of the Metro North love from the NTSB.

Wall Street Journal

Google

Amtrak Crash Might Have Been Avoided by Tweak to Signal System

to attempt to bypass paywall.

 

[dlagrua]

All of the reports that we are getting are very confusing. Here we have an experienced Amtrak engineer that has run the route for years ( perhaps 100's of times) accelerating the train to 106 mph prior to a curve that he must have known was ahead. If he passed out the "dead man" control would have stopped the train so he had to be awake. . Does anyone else find this strange???

It was also pointed out in another post that Amtrak locomotives only have an engineer in the cab? I find using a one man engine crew very strange as freight railroads have at least two and often three people riding in the cab; the engineer, conductor and sometimes a brakeman.

 

[Guest]

From this morning's news...

Philadelphia police have a warrant for his cell phone

I thought the engineer voluntarily handed his cell phone over to the investigators shortly after the crash? If the police now have a warrant, that seems to be mostly for an overly dramatic effect on their part.

 

[Bierboy]

From this morning's news...

Philadelphia police have a warrant for his cell phone

I thought the engineer voluntarily handed his cell phone over to the investigators shortly after the crash? If the police now have a warrant, that seems to be mostly for an overly dramatic effect on their part.

The warrant is for his cell phone RECORDS.

 

[PRR 60]

From this morning's news...

Philadelphia police have a warrant for his cell phone

I thought the engineer voluntarily handed his cell phone over to the investigators shortly after the crash? If the police now have a warrant, that seems to be mostly for an overly dramatic effect on their part.

The warrant is for his cell phone RECORDS.

From the carrier. SOP.

 

[Spin_news]

The media is really hammering Amtrak for not having this done sooner and blaming Amtrak for this accident.

And adding that how Congress lavishes Amtrak with an overly rich budget so that Amtrak has more than enough cash-on-hand to make any and all upgrades.

 

[tp49]

From this morning's news...

Philadelphia police have a warrant for his cell phone

I thought the engineer voluntarily handed his cell phone over to the investigators shortly after the crash? If the police now have a warrant, that seems to be mostly for an overly dramatic effect on their part.

The warrant is for his cell phone RECORDS.

From the carrier. SOP.

Yep , a subpoena (not a warrant) for the cellphone records is SOP in cases like this and nothing out of the ordinary.

 

[jis]

If the report about the Engineer opening his bag pulling out his phone, powering it up and calling 911 after he regained consciousness after the crash is true, then the cell phone call record over that period should be pretty blank. It would be interesting to learn what they find.

Personally it seems to me that the Philly Mayor and his Police Force seem to have developed preconceived notions about who is at fault. The mayor almost said so much when he talked about "reckless" etc. I think it is time for them to calm down and perhaps recuse themselves from the proceeding due to clearly demonstrated prejudice.

Given the currently known facts it appears there are two possible theories that fit the facts:

(i) Some sort of electronic or mechanical issue with the engine

(ii) Loss of situational awareness on part of the engineer.

NTSB has to clearly eliminate all but one based on the evidence available to them before any definitive statement can be made about what happened.

 

[KmH]

Does anyone have a close-up picture of the engineer's controls on these new engines?

jb

ACS-64 Engineer controls

 

[Ryan]

He doesn't seem to know what "literally" means, at a minimum.

“I don’t know what was going on with him,” Mayor Michael A. Nutter of Philadelphia told CNN on Wednesday. “But there’s really no excuse that can be offered, literally, unless he had a heart attack.”

I joke about word choice, but you can't honestly say "no excuse" and then immediately offer one and expect to be taken seriously.

 

[VentureForth]

The media is really hammering Amtrak for not having this done sooner and blaming Amtrak for this accident.

And adding that how Congress lavishes Amtrak with an overly rich budget so that Amtrak has more than enough cash-on-hand to make any and all upgrades.

I read today that PTC was installed but not activated. Amtrak has been given all the money. It's been used. It's been installed. It was not switched on because there were some radio frequency issues they were working out.

So says one reporter.

I don't buy the situational awareness hypothesis about him thinking he already rounded that curve. The first sharp curve out of Philly is a RIGHT hand curve that then goes over the Schuylkill river. The next curve is also a RIGHT hand curve, albeit much less tight. That then, goes into Frankford curve that is the sharp LEFT had curve. I don't see how you could think you're coming out of the wrong curve.

He doesn't seem to know what "literally" means, at a minimum.

“I don’t know what was going on with him,” Mayor Michael A. Nutter of Philadelphia told CNN on Wednesday. “But there’s really no excuse that can be offered, literally, unless he had a heart attack.”

I joke about word choice, but you can't honestly say "no excuse" and then immediately offer one and expect to be taken seriously.

It took me a moment, thinking that "literally" identified a real heart attack. But after reading your comment and rereading his, I see now how he said that only a heart attack could ever possibly be the reason he did this.

So I guess a mechanical failure couldn't be taken literally.

 

[John Bobinyec]

Does anyone have a close-up picture of the engineer's controls on these new engines?

jb

ACS-64 Engineer controls

You can't see everything, of course, but there doesn't appear to be a manual air (brake) valve. The normal acceleration and braking controls would all be computer controlled. There should be an emergency air valve somewhere.

jb