Amtrak Derailment Philadelphia (5/12/2015)

[jis]

We will know for sure when NTSB figures out what inputs were entered in the throttle from where when, won't we? Hypotheses are just that, to be tested and validated or rejected. Of course there will have to be human factors study to go along with it to eliminate the possibility that any inputs were made with full knowledge of upcoming sharp curve or not. In short there is quite a bit of analysis yet to take place before it can be accepted or rejected out of hand.

The only way to validate this one is to know exactly what throttle inputs were made by the Engineer when. I am sure NTSB has that info. I have not seen that published anywhere yet.

What the reporter says is very likely quite true since it is Boardman that s/he is paraphrasing. Obtaining radio spectrum for the critical digital radio link has been quite a struggle for all that have been trying to install PTC all across the country, not just Amtrak. In addition out west they have had a problem getting permission to build radio towers from the Department of the Interior delaying things quite a bit too. Apparently a certified Native expert has to be on hand while the foundation is dug to certify that no historical artifacts are disturbed, and apparently such experts are in extreme short supply or something quite interesting like that.

 

[crescent2]

From reports I've read, Mayor Nutter seems to have attempted to soften his earlier remarks somewhat. The Camp David coverage knocked the accident coverage off for a good while yesterday afternoon, so I didn't see the video of the mayor's statements.

Does anyone have a link to a video of yesterday's NTSB briefing?

 

[jis]

Google is your friend. NTSB does:

https://www.youtube.com/user/NTSBgov

 

[jis]

Does anyone have a close-up picture of the engineer's controls on these new engines?

jb

ACS-64 Engineer controls

You can't see everything, of course, but there doesn't appear to be a manual air (brake) valve. The normal acceleration and braking controls would all be computer controlled. There should be an emergency air valve somewhere.

jb

Isn't that red mushroom to the right of Biden's left hand the emergency stop thing?

 

[Ryan]

I read today that PTC was installed but not activated. Amtrak has been given all the money. It's been used. It's been installed. It was not switched on because there were some radio frequency issues they were working out.

So says one reporter.

Typical reporter not understanding what they're talking about.

The RF stuff doesn't have anything to do with the NEC, the freight RRs are using an RF based system. That's where the towers and Native American stuff comes in.

Actually related to this, ACSES is not installed along this stretch of track. It's true that the locomotive was equipped with the proper equipment, because it has been installed over much of the NEC, and all locomotives are required to have it operating before they depart. But without the wayside equipment being installed, the gear on the locomotive can't do anything.

Back on the reporter not understanding bit, it's truly depressing to think about the fact that their complete lack of understanding almost certainly isn't confined to just railroading. If they're that wrong about about everything they report on, can you believe much of anything they say?

 

[John Bobinyec]

Does anyone have a close-up picture of the engineer's controls on these new engines?

jb

ACS-64 Engineer controls

You can't see everything, of course, but there doesn't appear to be a manual air (brake) valve. The normal acceleration and braking controls would all be computer controlled. There should be an emergency air valve somewhere.

jb

Isn't that red mushroom to the right of Biden's left hand the emergency stop thing?

Looks like another electronic component to me. I'm talking about a manual air valve - WHOOSH!

jb

 

[Ryan]

Isn't that red mushroom to the right of Biden's left hand the emergency stop thing?

The news last night actually did a short piece on how locomotive controls work and said that red button was the alerter that they had to push several times a minute to let the locomotive know that they were still responsive.

So yes, that's probably the e-stop. h34r:

 

[Oldsmoboi]

From the situational awareness angle, wouldn't a simple GPS map display of the planned route be sufficient?

 

[VentureForth]

That's been brought up and it seems like a simple addition to their multi-function displays.

 

[PRR 60]

Does anyone have a close-up picture of the engineer's controls on these new engines?

jb

ACS-64 Engineer controls

You can't see everything, of course, but there doesn't appear to be a manual air (brake) valve. The normal acceleration and braking controls would all be computer controlled. There should be an emergency air valve somewhere.

jb

Isn't that red mushroom to the right of Biden's left hand the emergency stop thing?

Looks like another electronic component to me. I'm talking about a manual air valve - WHOOSH!

jb

That large red button is the emergency stop. Push it, the train goes immediately into emergency.

 

[jis]

Isn't that red mushroom to the right of Biden's left hand the emergency stop thing?

The news last night actually did a short piece on how locomotive controls work and said that red button was the alerter that they had to push several times a minute to let the locomotive know that they were still responsive.

So yes, that's probably the e-stop. h34r:

Ah OK, I thought the little red button is the alerter and the large mushroom is the emergency stop. But admittedly I dunno for sure.

 

[Ryan]

I'd believe Bill over the TV news.

 

[tp49]

I thought the alerter is on the floor on these

 

[Oldsmoboi]

So here's another question: Is 70mph - 106mph in 49 seconds just about max acceleration in an ACS-64 with a loaded train?

 

[John Bobinyec]

Still looking for a manual air valve. Electronics and computers are appropriate for normal operations, but when the electronics fails, the train must still be stopped quickly. Only a manual release of the brake pipe air pressure will do that. I suppose the valve is simply out of view.

jb

 

[jis]

I read today that PTC was installed but not activated. Amtrak has been given all the money. It's been used. It's been installed. It was not switched on because there were some radio frequency issues they were working out.

So says one reporter.

Typical reporter not understanding what they're talking about.

The RF stuff doesn't have anything to do with the NEC, the freight RRs are using an RF based system. That's where the towers and Native American stuff comes in.

This is incorrect. ACSES II also requires a radio link. Time to get self educated. Take a look at:

http://www.tsd.org/papers/ACSEScbtc.ppt

It looks like the radio link in Cab Signaled territory with installed transponders is mainly for TSR enforcement. My understanding is that PSRs are done primarily through transponders, though they could be done via the radio link too, specially where there are multiple curves in close proximity with different speed limits. But again, I am no expert and could be wrong. The radio is also used for some additional home signal release functions to allow the train to pass a failed home signal under dispatcher control and such.

 

[crescent2]

Google is your friend. NTSB does:

https://www.youtube.com/user/NTSBgov

Thanks, jis. I had googled it earlier, but the only link that came up then was no longer active. (I can't survive any more without google. LOL)

I read today that PTC was installed but not activated. Amtrak has been given all the money. It's been used. It's been installed. It was not switched on because there were some radio frequency issues they were working out.

So says one reporter.

Typical reporter not understanding what they're talking about.

The RF stuff doesn't have anything to do with the NEC, the freight RRs are using an RF based system. That's where the towers and Native American stuff comes in.

Actually related to this, ACSES is not installed along this stretch of track. It's true that the locomotive was equipped with the proper equipment, because it has been installed over much of the NEC, and all locomotives are required to have it operating before they depart. But without the wayside equipment being installed, the gear on the locomotive can't do anything.

Back on the reporter not understanding bit, it's truly depressing to think about the fact that their complete lack of understanding almost certainly isn't confined to just railroading. If they're that wrong about about everything they report on, can you believe much of anything they say?

Ryan, imo NO, we can't. I rarely even watch the televised news any more, except for this recent accident. Pitiful.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Does anyone have a close-up picture of the engineer's controls on these new engines?

jb

ACS-64 Engineer controls

You can't see everything, of course, but there doesn't appear to be a manual air (brake) valve. The normal acceleration and braking controls would all be computer controlled. There should be an emergency air valve somewhere.

jb

Isn't that red mushroom to the right of Biden's left hand the emergency stop thing?

Looks like another electronic component to me. I'm talking about a manual air valve - WHOOSH!

jb

That large red button is the emergency stop. Push it, the train goes immediately into emergency.

Jis: The little red button between the black toggle switch and the black push button that is even with the panel and to the right of VP Biden's left hand is the pantograph down button. The red mushroom button is indeed the alertor.

if you're interested in placing the train into emergency, the automatic brake valve (the long red handle next to VP Biden's right hand) is pushed all the way forward. There is an additional mushroom push button that is out of view on the fireman's side.

I thought the alerter is on the floor on these

There is an additional foot pedal that acknowledges the alertor and cab signals changes.

PS: This is just a casual comment that has nothing to do with any sort of incident. I'm am responding to a general question in a general manner. No specific responses to any specific incidents are addressed or implied.

PPS: To all that reached out to me through texts, email, PMs and phone calls: Thank you.

 

[jis]

Thirdrail, Thanks much!

So to apply emergency brakes you use the brake handle pushing it full forward.

What does the mushroom button on Fireman's position do?

Thanks again.

 

[Guest]

There is an additional mushroom push button that is out of view on the fireman's side.

Fireman's side? So, it is designed for a second person to be in the cab, and have a purpose being there?

 

[Thirdrail7]

Thirdrail, Thanks much!

So can the emergency you use the brake handle pushing it full forward.

What does the mushroom button on Fireman's position do?

Thanks again.

Sorry. That is to put the train in emergency.

There is an additional mushroom push button that is out of view on the fireman's side.

Fireman's side? So, it is designed for a second person to be in the cab, and have a purpose being there?

Yes. Let's say there are two people in the engine for some reason. The person on the fireman's side can place the train in emergency if the need arises.

 

[Guest]

Does this help?

 

[Guest]

 

[Guest]

Sorry, I should have posted this version instead, much higher resolution, you can almost read all the labels.

[img=[URL="http://blog.amtrak.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/INR_DSC_2529.jpg"]http://blog.amtrak.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/INR_DSC_2529.jpg[/URL]

 

[Grandpa D]

OK. The Alerter button has to be pushed "several times a minute". What happens if the engineer (or assistant engineer) fails to push the button sufficiently? Automatic emergency stop?