Amtrak Doesn't Go There

[delvyrails]

Of the 48 largest U.S. travel markets listed in the NARP website appendix, more than half either are not conveniently served by Amtrak or not served at all. The symbols used below: 0=not realistically served, 3=triweekly service, IR=indirect routing, IS=inconvenient station, IT=inconvenient transfer (more than 4 hours or even overnight). Since the NARP figures were published, newer markets of importance, such as New York-Dallas and Atlanta-Dallas, may have appeared.

The rankings among the ill-served travel markets and the markets themselves are as follows:

6. SFo-Phx: 3, IS, IT

16. NY-Det: IT

17. NY-Houston: IR (via Chicago) or 3 and IT (via New Orleans)

18. LA-Dal: 3, IR (via San Antonio)

19. Atl-Det: 0

20. Chi-Orlando: 0

21. Was-Dal: IR (via Chicago)

23. Phl-Chi: IT

24. Dal-Den: 0

27. LA-SLC: 0

28. SFo-Las Vegas: 0

29. Atl-Mia: 0

30. Houston-El Paso: 3

31. Chi-Houston: IT

32. Chi-Phx: IT

35. Chi-Atl: 0

36. NY-Columbus, OH: 0

37. Atl-West Palm Beach: 0

39. Was-Det: IT

40. Phl-LA: IT

41. Den-Phx: IR. IT

43. Den-Las Vegas: 0

44. Dal-LVs: 0

47: LA-Hous: 3

48. Chi-Tampa: 0

Given the railroad network as it is, a few of these markets would be hard to serve with any directness; but some could be improved with rescheduled transfers (Los Angeles, New Orleans) and other relatively low cost changes.

At greater cost, some new route segments would need to be opened to service, increasing Amtrak's route mileage from about 21,000 at present to about 25,000:

a. Atlanta-Jacksonville

b. Atlanta-Cincinnati

c. Jacksonville-West Palm Beach via Florida East Coast

d. Wellton-Phoenix-Picacho, AZ

e. Oklahoma City-Newton, KS

f. Toledo-Detroit or Dearborn, MI

g. Cincinnati-Toledo

h. Fort Worth-Sierra Blanca, TX

i. Barstow, CA-Las Vegas

j. Bakersfield-Barstow

k. Salt Lake City-Las Vegas

l. Meridian, MS-Longview, TX

m. Houston-Marshall, TX

n. Denver-Pueblo-La Junta, CO

For those of us who want a more connective and successful Amtrak, these segments would appear to be the most useful ones to add, as far as the national Amtrak system is concerned.

 

[the_traveler]

I agree that some improvements can be made. But one thing about that list has me confused! :blink:

Washington to Dallas (via Chicago) states "Inconvenient routing", but Chicago-Orlando and Chicago-Tampa state "-0-". Those are available with a connection in Washington!

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

NYC-DET? Who is going to Detroit these days?

 

[had8ley]

NYC-DET? Who is going to Detroit these days?

Those people that can't get an Amtrak train to get there. :lol:

 

[saxman]

To break your list down even farther, consider what could be added without making any track improvements at all. I can think of Oklahoma City to Newton and Longview to Meridian as two examples of already well used freight lines. I'm sure there's a few others that the track is already there and up to 79 mph. All you have to do is get stations/platforms built and work out an agreement with the host railroad. Of course equipment, but thats needed anyway.

 

[Donctor]

NYC-DET? Who is going to Detroit these days?

Those people that can't get an Amtrak train to get there.

Or the people who had the NYP-DET train, but never used it, and then became vocal when it was taken away.

 

[the_traveler]

NYC-DET? Who is going to Detroit these days?

Those people that can't get an Amtrak train to get there.

Or the people who had the NYP-DET train, but never used it, and then became vocal when it was taken away.

At least Amtrak never had a NYP-DET train. (Maybe some other RR did.) There was a NYG-DET train.

Prior to the 90's, all trains from upstate NY only went to Grand Central Terminal!

 

[Donctor]

At least Amtrak never had a NYP-DET train. (Maybe some other RR did.) There was a NYG-DET train.
Prior to the 90's, all trains from upstate NY only went to Grand Central Terminal!

Quite right. I stand corrected.

 

[henryj]

Here in Texas we would like to see Dallas to Denver and Houston to Dallas for starters followed by daily service on the Sunset Route.

 

[delvyrails]

Of course, it's a judgement to set the dividing line between "no service" and "indirect service". While a small number of customers may be "rail dependent", most potential Amtrak passengers have some choices.

The longer the route offered by Amtrak is in comparison with the Interstate route and the direct rail route, the worse the time comparison and the higher the roundabout fare. So, to varying degrees, the inconvenient route encounters both time and cost penalties for the passenger..

 

[railiner]

NYC-DET? Who is going to Detroit these days?

Those people that can't get an Amtrak train to get there. :lol:

How about leaving NYP on train 63 at 715 am, arrive Aldershot at 705 pm, depart on VIA 79 at 753pm, and arrive Windsor at 1116 pm? From there you are just a short bus or taxi ride across the river to Detroit...

Unfortunately, it doesn't work in reverse (misconnects by a half-hour).

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Why do we all get together and have a pity fest about lacking service we already know about? Why don't we take the time we spend discussing these known quantities to lobbying to change them?

 

[delvyrails]

Why do we all get together and have a pity fest about lacking service we already know about? Why don't we take the time we spend discussing these known quantities to lobbying to change them?

Having spent a few hours with members of Congress discussing train service, I know that they expect specific, economic proposals for service, not some breezy slogans about "better train service" or "we need trains". That's the all-too-typical "pity fest".

So before visiting legislators, those interested must determine for themselves what specific, economic proposals look like. That takes a good bit of research and discussion and agreement first.

To inform those interested, we must determine where Amtrak fails to give good service for the larger transportation markets. In a world where energy and environment are more and more important, what major long routes would likely run with the largest passenger loadings and at lowest total subsidy per passenger mile? Transform the Amtrak system into a stronger one. That was my purpose in this post.

Never go to a legislator until you have a solution. Oh (almost forgot), at least a dozen voters should be backing that plan.

 

[Larry H.]

Why do we all get together and have a pity fest about lacking service we already know about? Why don't we take the time we spend discussing these known quantities to lobbying to change them?

I for one have often written Senator Durbin who is said to be a Amtrak and passenger rail advocate. However over many years of explaining the things that I see that need to be addressed both on board and in locations served, I would have to say that to date Amtrak has chosen to address none of them in a positive way. They just seem to be the ultimate bureaucrats taking the publics money and wishing the day was over so they could go home. If they weren't we might actually see some real improvements.. Seen any lately?

 

[AlanB]

If they weren't we might actually see some real improvements.. Seen any lately?

Yes. Cafe cars now open upon departure from terminals and major stations where restocking is done and there is now a program in place that sees mid-run cleanings being done on Acela and Regionals that run between Boston and DC. Then of course there is the modifications that have been done to the original SDS plan that was a disaster. Food has improved considerably and perhaps most important, it is now far more consistant than it was pre SDS. Yes, pre-SDS there were some cooks that turned out wonderful meals, but there were other's that turned out nothing special at all. Now, there is major consistancy in meals, with the biggest complaint (beyond the steaks) being that sometimes the reheat goes bad. But a good meal is no longer left to the whims of the chef. And Amtrak has modified how the dining car gets staffed, such that the number of employees in the diner is based on the passenger load.

 

[Phila 30th St]

NYC-DET? Who is going to Detroit these days?

Those people that can't get an Amtrak train to get there. :lol:

How about leaving NYP on train 63 at 715 am, arrive Aldershot at 705 pm, depart on VIA 79 at 753pm, and arrive Windsor at 1116 pm? From there you are just a short bus or taxi ride across the river to Detroit...

And you're closer to all the good casinos!

 

[WICT106]

Hmm . . . My small suggestion would be CHI - MKE - MSN - MSP - Winnipeg, MB. Also, CHI - Duluth/Superior, following the same route between CHI & MSP.

 

[AlanB]

I want to take a moment and comment further on something that was raised in this topic, and Larry please don't take this personally as you are not the only one whose made statement's like you did above. Many other's have made similar statements in the past, so again Larry please don't think that I'm singling you out here as that is not my intention at all.

I'll be the first person to admit that I don't agree with everything that Amtrak management does or puts out. But I do grow weary at times of the almost constant bashing of management that I do see on this site. Like any company there are excellent managers, good managers, and some useless managers. Just like there are excellent employees, good employees, and useless employees.

But I hate when all get lumped and/or branded with the same label. There are many good & excellent managers at Amtrak, but they are either constrained by budget issues, or perhaps practical issues, or perhaps a bad manager above them. But the fact remains that Amtrak does have some excellent managers.

We've been fortunate enough to have one of those managers as a member of our website for over 5 years now. This gentleman just retired from Amtrak, something that I consider a great loss for Amtrak and those of us who support Amtrak. I certainly wish him well, and did so privately at the time he informed me of his imminent retirement.

This gentleman was a Senior Director, which meant that he had unfettered access to the office of one of Amtrak's Vice Presidents. And as the title implies, he was a very senior member of management and had considerable responsibilities within his job. Responsibilities that affected several thousand workers and hundred's of thousands of riders.

Yet this gentleman has been coming here of his own free will for more than 5 years to lend his voice in answering questions for many first time riders and joined in many general conversations here. Occasionally he posted from work I believe, but most of his posts came from his home. He gave up his own free time to come here to post and answer questions. That is above and beyond the call of duty, IMHO. No one at Amtrak tasked him with coming here. That wasn't his job.

To date we've never made a big deal about this, and it has remained largely secret. But still I cannot begin to imagine how hurtful it must be to this wonderful gentleman to come here and read that all managers at Amtrak are useless and/or a waste. This man gave up his own free time, time that he could have spent with family or doing any number of other things. Instead, he spent at least some of his own personal time here at AU helping people to navigate the world of Amtrak, and never received a dime from anyone for that effort, much less a thank you from anyone other than from Anthony or I.

Even now he still comes here to discuss Amtrak with us and offer his advice/knowledge to first timer's asking questions.

So I urge all to please be mindful of the fact that not every manager at Amtrak is a waste of space. They aren't all useless. There are many good managers at Amtrak, who for whatever reasons, cannot always change things or fix things. Let's please avoid sweeping, blanket statements that condemn all employees and/or managers, as for every useless one out there, there are probably 2 or 3 good ones out there.

Thanks!

Ps. Please don’t bother asking who this person is or even sending me PM’s with guesses as we will continue to respect his wishes to remain anonymous.

 

[rrdude]

NYC-DET? Who is going to Detroit these days?

Those people that can't get an Amtrak train to get there. :lol:

Detroit should just plain be REMOVED from the Amtrak map, in fact any maps, in fact, ALL maps. Maybe then it will go away. Can we give it to Ohio? Can we bribe Ohio to take it?

Oh yeah, wait, the "casinos will save Day-twa, opps, didn't happen. Wait, the Ren-Cen will save MoTown. Nope.

At least Amtrak doesn't use as a terminal anymore, there's some progress.......

And I am, btw, a Michigan native.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Why do we all get together and have a pity fest about lacking service we already know about? Why don't we take the time we spend discussing these known quantities to lobbying to change them?

Having spent a few hours with members of Congress discussing train service, I know that they expect specific, economic proposals for service, not some breezy slogans about "better train service" or "we need trains". That's the all-too-typical "pity fest".

So before visiting legislators, those interested must determine for themselves what specific, economic proposals look like. That takes a good bit of research and discussion and agreement first.

To inform those interested, we must determine where Amtrak fails to give good service for the larger transportation markets. In a world where energy and environment are more and more important, what major long routes would likely run with the largest passenger loadings and at lowest total subsidy per passenger mile? Transform the Amtrak system into a stronger one. That was my purpose in this post.

Never go to a legislator until you have a solution. Oh (almost forgot), at least a dozen voters should be backing that plan.

I know all this. This has been my main occupation for some time now. I was talking about the general attitude of talking rather then doing. Obviously, you need to have a solid issue, a specific proposal, and a detailed diagram on how that is going to get the person you are lobbying re-elected/promoted/recognized/etc.

But really, if all of our (and I'm talking rail people in general) would stop letting overpaid and underperforming Ross Capon and his compromised NARP organization do our talking for us and start making our efforts to congress more personal and specific and detailed, we'd get a hell of a lot more done. I know several people in NARP who are nice enough (and I know some who shall remain nameless that are total arrogant ****s) but we railfans seem to mostly prefer to plead our case by proxy.

We have to keep in mind that our elected officials are political hacks. But all, we must remember that Ross Capon and others of his ilk are also political hacks. The best way to get things accomplished isn't to sit and pay NARP money so that they can pay six-figure salaries to their officers. (You don't want to know what Capon himself makes!)

To paraphrase a part of a speech I made at a group I am a member of: "Do not tell them how their constituents will like the action, for they don't care. Do not tell them how much money they will save for its not their money and they still don't care. Don't talk to them about a vision for a better nation in twenty years, for they won't be in office then. Tell them how this is going to gain them popular electoral favor and political capital, and they will actually sit and listen."

 

[DET63]

NYC-DET? Who is going to Detroit these days?

Those people that can't get an Amtrak train to get there. :lol:

Detroit should just plain be REMOVED from the Amtrak map, in fact any maps, in fact, ALL maps. Maybe then it will go away. Can we give it to Ohio? Can we bribe Ohio to take it?

Oh yeah, wait, the "casinos will save Day-twa, opps, didn't happen. Wait, the Ren-Cen will save MoTown. Nope.

At least Amtrak doesn't use as a terminal anymore, there's some progress.......

And I am, btw, a Michigan native.

Send Detroit south.

To Canada, that is.

 

[delvyrails]

Thanks for your thoughtful comments, AlanB and Green Maned Lion.

I wish I knew more of the political pressures on management coming directly from the Amtrak Board or indirectly from Capitol Hill, Wall Street, etc. Amtrak's top offiicals have to operate daily under these pressures, and a few who pushed too hard have been fired. From what little I can see from the outside, it appears that most try in their own imperfect ways to give their true customers (as opposed to the political and financial clients) their best efforts.

I was an early NARP member (just post-Haswell) and served on the Board for several years. It should be understood that the NARP Board, too, operated then (and still does, for all I know, no longer being a member) with divergent regional viewpoints. I found that if one tries to transcend regional viewpoints (might I say "dogmas"?), one can be voted out.

One NARP committee meeting after midnight elected to redraw the Amtrak route structure with very little previous analytical process. It soon became a matter of "I'll 'give' you your line if you'll 'give' me mine" (a vicarious microcosm of Congress?). So you can see that the top people in rail organizations can be under their own kinds of pressures too. The group can evolve a visionary map, but a map's not a plan.

The national system, like the freight railroads on which it runs, can be efficient and effective carrying people (analogous to the long hauls of most freight today). It can attract passengers over relatively long distances at 24-hour intervals without tipping all those large added costs that multiple-frequency back-and-forth daytime shuttles entail.

But although the economics favor well-conceived long haul trains, provincialism and populism tend to favor the short haul, state-oriented routes. As they say, "All politics is local". That may be true on the state level but not necessarily on the federal level if consistent messages are given and heard.

That's why I think that a self-organizing, infrastructure-free network of people visioning, discussing, planning, and then pushing an agreed plan on a national scale might somehow succeed where a traditional membership-and-dues, donate-and-hope organization does not.

 

[Cascadia]

Hmm . . . My small suggestion would be CHI - MKE - MSN - MSP - Winnipeg, MB. Also, CHI - Duluth/Superior, following the same route between CHI & MSP.

Oh yes, train service between MSP and Winnipeg - that's a fond dream of mine, if they had that, I might find an excuse to move back to MN. And a train to Duluth - people would love that.

I'm with you on your fine suggestions for sure!

 

[WICT106]

Hmm . . . My small suggestion would be CHI - MKE - MSN - MSP - Winnipeg, MB. Also, CHI - Duluth/Superior, following the same route between CHI & MSP.

Oh yes, train service between MSP and Winnipeg - that's a fond dream of mine, if they had that, I might find an excuse to move back to MN. And a train to Duluth - people would love that.

I'm with you on your fine suggestions for sure!

A more realistic wish of mine would be to have all routes in the network offer service at least twice per day in both directions. A sort of Twice-per-day-each-way level of service, if you will. This would be before any discussion of new destinations or additional routes or itineraries.

 

[como]

NYC-DET? Who is going to Detroit these days?

Basketball fans of a certain age will flock to Detroit because Dave Bing is mayor. It's a city that has had rough times, but it is still a nice city. And my wife, a Detroit native told me that she and her family took Amtrak from Detroit to NYC in 1975.