Amtrak request for proposal-Nationwide Food & Beverage Service

[RPC]

My biggest reservation about this is the focus on luxury services. The Canadian seems to be going in this direction, where you have two trains coupled together, one for the elite and one bare-bones transportation for the "deplorables." As the New York Times noted earlier this year, an Amtrak diner is one of the few places where people of all sorts mingle, and something about sharing a meal (usually) helps make that a pleasant experience.

 

[cpotisch]

My biggest reservation about this is the focus on luxury services. The Canadian seems to be going in this direction, where you have two trains coupled together, one for the elite and one bare-bones transportation for the "deplorables." As the New York Times noted earlier this year, an Amtrak diner is one of the few places where people of all sorts mingle, and something about sharing a meal (usually) helps make that a pleasant experience.

Sorry, how is the Canadian "two trains coupled together, one for the elite and one bare-bones transportation for the "deplorables""?

 

[crescent-zephyr]

My biggest reservation about this is the focus on luxury services. The Canadian seems to be going in this direction, where you have two trains coupled together, one for the elite and one bare-bones transportation for the "deplorables." As the New York Times noted earlier this year, an Amtrak diner is one of the few places where people of all sorts mingle, and something about sharing a meal (usually) helps make that a pleasant experience.

Sorry, how is the Canadian "two trains coupled together, one for the elite and one bare-bones transportation for the "deplorables""?

It has that feel to it. The via rail coaches and coach ️️️dome cars haven't been touched in decades. It would be the equivalent of Amtrak coaches still running the Orange / red upholstery while the sleeping cars got refurbished.

When I rode, coach passengers were allowed to eat in the dining car though. Space available of course.

 

[cpotisch]

My biggest reservation about this is the focus on luxury services. The Canadian seems to be going in this direction, where you have two trains coupled together, one for the elite and one bare-bones transportation for the "deplorables." As the New York Times noted earlier this year, an Amtrak diner is one of the few places where people of all sorts mingle, and something about sharing a meal (usually) helps make that a pleasant experience.

Sorry, how is the Canadian "two trains coupled together, one for the elite and one bare-bones transportation for the "deplorables""?

It has that feel to it. If you

Just the difference between Sleeper Plus/Prestige and coach? Is the latter really that bad?

 

[Skyline]

I think we shouldn't get too excited about the inclusion of very high end offerings in the RFP. Anderson said in April that he thought the idea of an "experiential" service has promise (paraphrasing). Read that to mean one or two upgraded transcon trains a week like the Canadian. It's a great idea, maybe, but not at the expense of a true national network that includes good if not great daily LD trains. It doesn't take an operable crystal ball to figure out what would happen to the daily national network if Anderson was able to hoodwink us this way.

 

[cocojacoby]

My biggest reservation about this is the focus on luxury services. The Canadian seems to be going in this direction, where you have two trains coupled together, one for the elite and one bare-bones transportation for the "deplorables." As the New York Times noted earlier this year, an Amtrak diner is one of the few places where people of all sorts mingle, and something about sharing a meal (usually) helps make that a pleasant experience.

You know for the price you pay in "Sleeper Class" on Amtrak, it is pretty much at a luxury price level. Sleeper passengers should get good First Class Service at these prices . . . period.

 

[railiner]

The Downeaster has outsourced food service including the onboard workers

Wow....I had no idea of this...how could the Amtrak union's ever let that happen?

If they did...it was a grave error, as it "set a precedent", which will forever be a "bargaining chip" for management...

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

The Downeaster has outsourced food service including the onboard workers

Wow....I had no idea of this...how could the Amtrak union's ever let that happen?

If they did...it was a grave error, as it "set a precedent", which will forever be a "bargaining chip" for management...

New service funding by organization with no attachments to historical requirements. They want a cafe car, they paid for it. The products for sale are not stock in Boston, due to the Union, but the type of products are of there choosing. So more fresh foods, more local products. Money talks.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

The Downeaster has outsourced food service including the onboard workers

Wow....I had no idea of this...how could the Amtrak union's ever let that happen?

If they did...it was a grave error, as it "set a precedent", which will forever be a "bargaining chip" for management...

Isn't the Downeaster owned by Maine and Amtrak just provides the engine/T&E? Like the California trains? (I could be way off base on this - wouldn't be the first time)

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Isn't the Downeaster owned by Maine and Amtrak just provides the engine/T&E? Like the California trains...

Not quite the same. Amtrak owned equipment, staffed by Amtrak T&E, the cafe car is equipped and staffed by a contractor. The entire train is fund by The Northern New England Passenger Rail Authority (NNEPRA) which is a public transportation authority created in 1995 by the Maine State Legislature to develop and provide passenger rail service between Maine and Boston and points within Maine.

http://amtrakdowneaster.com/

 

[PVD]

The point is, outsourcing, paying people less, and selling a wider variety of products still loses money. People are constantly implying that the cost of labor is the primary problem, and changing that will somehow make F&B profitable. It just isn't so. But that won't stop management and their allies from saying it. When was the last time a group of managers stood up and said "we misread the market, made a bunch of bad decisions, and are trying to figure out a way to either fix this or at at least make people think we are" Way easier to fix blame than to fix problems...At least a priest says "Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa"

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

Should we eliminate toilets on short runs because they are an expense that can't be recouped?

No, just put a $5 bill acceptor in to unlock the door....

(I'm old enough to remember pay toilets in public places! I'm NOT serious!)

And I'm old enough to remember crawling under the stall doors as a kid

 

[ehbowen]

If I'm Remembering Correctly (I was a kid, too!), there was always one "free" stall...at least in big restrooms (I'm specifically thinking of the airport).

 

[railiner]

If the Downeaster, regardless of it's funding, is ostensibly operated as an 'Amtrak' train, and part of Amtrak's 'national network' insofar as staffing, equipment, sales, reservation's, etc.; then I would think the agreement between Amtrak and its appropriate craft union's would apply aboard it, as far as staffing. If a privately owned car was on it, that would be different, as its owner's would provide its own staffing. But an Amtrak food service car? Regardless of the source of the food, the staff preparing and serving it on board should be an Amtrak employee...

I cannot understand how the union would tolerate anything else, unless they were granted some concession of some kind...

What about the other locally funded trains...Amtrak California, or North Carolina...do they have non Amtrak operated food service cars?

 

[ehbowen]

If the Downeaster, regardless of it's funding, is ostensibly operated as an 'Amtrak' train, and part of Amtrak's 'national network' insofar as staffing, equipment, sales, reservation's, etc.; then I would think the agreement between Amtrak and its appropriate craft union's would apply aboard it, as far as staffing. If a privately owned car was on it, that would be different, as its owner's would provide its own staffing. But an Amtrak food service car? Regardless of the source of the food, the staff preparing and serving it on board should be an Amtrak employee...

I cannot understand how the union would tolerate anything else, unless they were granted some concession of some kind...

What about the other locally funded trains...Amtrak California, or North Carolina...do they have non Amtrak operated food service cars?

There is precedent for it...how do you think the Santa Fe/Fred Harvey partnership operated (for most of its history), or the Pullman Company?

 

[Bob Dylan]

I promise you that the Food Service staff on the Downeaster are NOT Amtrak Union Employees and don't make anything near what Amtrak OBS make!

And the Cafe Menu is much better too! They even serve Coke products instead of Pepsi Swill!

 

[Triley]

If the Downeaster, regardless of it's funding, is ostensibly operated as an 'Amtrak' train, and part of Amtrak's 'national network' insofar as staffing, equipment, sales, reservation's, etc.; then I would think the agreement between Amtrak and its appropriate craft union's would apply aboard it, as far as staffing. If a privately owned car was on it, that would be different, as its owner's would provide its own staffing. But an Amtrak food service car? Regardless of the source of the food, the staff preparing and serving it on board should be an Amtrak employee...

I cannot understand how the union would tolerate anything else, unless they were granted some concession of some kind...

What about the other locally funded trains...Amtrak California, or North Carolina...do they have non Amtrak operated food service cars?

I've talked to a couple of their attendants and they get a fraction of what we get paid (not much above minimum wage...), nor do they get railroad retirement, which I don't understand how their company gets away with that! They've told me that they would/could never due OBS for Amtrak if they were to get paid what they're making now.

 

[railiner]

If the Downeaster, regardless of it's funding, is ostensibly operated as an 'Amtrak' train, and part of Amtrak's 'national network' insofar as staffing, equipment, sales, reservation's, etc.; then I would think the agreement between Amtrak and its appropriate craft union's would apply aboard it, as far as staffing. If a privately owned car was on it, that would be different, as its owner's would provide its own staffing. But an Amtrak food service car? Regardless of the source of the food, the staff preparing and serving it on board should be an Amtrak employee...

I cannot understand how the union would tolerate anything else, unless they were granted some concession of some kind...

What about the other locally funded trains...Amtrak California, or North Carolina...do they have non Amtrak operated food service cars?

There is precedent for it...how do you think the Santa Fe/Fred Harvey partnership operated (for most of its history), or the Pullman Company?

I could be wrong, but pretty sure the employees aboard the dining cars offering "Fred Harvey" service, were Santa Fe employees.

The Pullman Company was a different matter. The Porter's and Pullman Conductor's did work for The Pullman Company, working on the Pullman owned cars. They were union employees, earning full Railroad Retirement benefits.

 

[railiner]

I promise you that the Food Service staff on the Downeaster are NOT Amtrak Union Employees and don't make anything near what Amtrak OBS make!

And the Cafe Menu is much better too! They even serve Coke products instead of Pepsi Swill!

I am not disagreeing with this, just very surprised the union would let that happen. What about the other example's I cited--Amtrak California and North Carolina?

As for the menu offered, Amtrak employees have nothing to do with that...they could just as well serve those items, or anything else the sponsor desired...

 

[railiner]

If the Downeaster, regardless of it's funding, is ostensibly operated as an 'Amtrak' train, and part of Amtrak's 'national network' insofar as staffing, equipment, sales, reservation's, etc.; then I would think the agreement between Amtrak and its appropriate craft union's would apply aboard it, as far as staffing. If a privately owned car was on it, that would be different, as its owner's would provide its own staffing. But an Amtrak food service car? Regardless of the source of the food, the staff preparing and serving it on board should be an Amtrak employee...

I cannot understand how the union would tolerate anything else, unless they were granted some concession of some kind...

What about the other locally funded trains...Amtrak California, or North Carolina...do they have non Amtrak operated food service cars?

I've talked to a couple of their attendants and they get a fraction of what we get paid (not much above minimum wage...), nor do they get railroad retirement, which I don't understand how their company gets away with that! They've told me that they would/could never due OBS for Amtrak if they were to get paid what they're making now.

I am not sure I understand your response....are you saying that they would work for whomever is employing them now for their wages, but would not work for Amtrak at those same wages?

I don't understand that, at all.

As for Railroad Retirement....that is a good question. Up in Alaska, on the ARR trains, the T&E crews definitely come under RRB. On the private, cruise ship owned cars, the cook's, waiter's, bar tender's, train manager positions, etc. are not under RRB. As for the ones working on the ARR owned cars...I am not sure...they may may not even be ARR employed either...

I suppose the key for RRB is whether the employee is paid directly by the railroad, or by someone else....PV owner's certainly do not pay RRB benefits to their employee's.

 

[Triley]

If the Downeaster, regardless of it's funding, is ostensibly operated as an 'Amtrak' train, and part of Amtrak's 'national network' insofar as staffing, equipment, sales, reservation's, etc.; then I would think the agreement between Amtrak and its appropriate craft union's would apply aboard it, as far as staffing. If a privately owned car was on it, that would be different, as its owner's would provide its own staffing. But an Amtrak food service car? Regardless of the source of the food, the staff preparing and serving it on board should be an Amtrak employee...

I cannot understand how the union would tolerate anything else, unless they were granted some concession of some kind...

What about the other locally funded trains...Amtrak California, or North Carolina...do they have non Amtrak operated food service cars?

I've talked to a couple of their attendants and they get a fraction of what we get paid (not much above minimum wage...), nor do they get railroad retirement, which I don't understand how their company gets away with that! They've told me that they would/could never due OBS for Amtrak if they were to get paid what they're making now.

I am not sure I understand your response....are you saying that they would work for whomever is employing them now for their wages, but would not work for Amtrak at those same wages?

I don't understand that, at all.
As for Railroad Retirement....that is a good question. Up in Alaska, on the ARR trains, the T&E crews definitely come under RRB. On the private, cruise ship owned cars, the cook's, waiter's, bar tender's, train manager positions, etc. are not under RRB. As for the ones working on the ARR owned cars...I am not sure...they may may not even be ARR employed either...

I suppose the key for RRB is whether the employee is paid directly by the railroad, or by someone else....PV owner's certainly do not pay RRB benefits to their employee's.

I meant it was a hypothetical. They wouldn't be willing to do the job required of Amtrak OBS, if their private comment requires them to do so.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

North Carolina has vending machines on their lounge cars. They also stock free mini-bottles of water for all passengers. I can't remember if the coffee is free, or if it's a pay machine. The vending machines have always been well-stocled and working and the waters have all been well stocked when I rode the Piedmont trains.

California has a different menu on their trains, as does the state sponsored Cascades trains. At one time the cascades operated the bistro car with 2 employees, allowing some foods prep on the train. For example, ordering oatmeal at breakfast you would get oatmeal spooned into a bowl from a pot with all the toppings like in a diner, not the usual add hot water to an instant tub like on most cafe cars. that was like 5 years ago though, may have changed.

 

[railiner]

North Carolina has vending machines on their lounge cars. They also stock free mini-bottles of water for all passengers. I can't remember if the coffee is free, or if it's a pay machine. The vending machines have always been well-stocled and working and the waters have all been well stocked when I rode the Piedmont trains.

California has a different menu on their trains, as does the state sponsored Cascades trains. At one time the cascades operated the bistro car with 2 employees, allowing some foods prep on the train. For example, ordering oatmeal at breakfast you would get oatmeal spooned into a bowl from a pot with all the toppings like in a diner, not the usual add hot water to an instant tub like on most cafe cars. that was like 5 years ago though, may have changed.

Different menu's...no problem. But who does (or did), the prep and serving on those Cascade bistro cars?

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Amtrak employees.

State of Indiana had non-Amtrak employees on tr hoosier state when it was run by iowa Pacific. Still Amtrak t&e, and still Amtrak ticketing.

 

[PVD]

Keep in mind that the RRB Tier 1 is providing benefits that would be provided to other private sector workers covered by Social Security. There are a few nuances, particularly involving disability, and the transference of credit to SS if you don't retire or die directly out of a railroad, but it is by no means a super benefit above what other workers earn. Tier 2 is another matter, it is providing a benefit more in line with defined benefit pension plans that used to be more common in private industry before the screw the workers future in the name of cost certainty move to defined contribution plans gained a foothold.