Amtrak's 400% food markup

[HARHBG]

I tried to make it clear that I was NOT suggesting Amtrak cut wages, only that IN COMPARISON to the REAL WORLD where food service workers are paid minimum wage it's really impossible to compare Amtrak food service, it's costs, etc. to anything else.

Just the working conditions alone make it impossible to accurately compare Amtrak food service to anything else out there except, perhaps the same job on a cruise ship and I KNOW those people are NOT paid the wages Amtrak pays.

I fully support the concept of a living wage and I don't begrudge Amtrak employees the wages they've EARNED, when, of course, they've earned them.

I DO however, gripe loudly about the "Toxic" Amtrak employees that really mess it up for the MANY GOOD Amtrak ;people working hard to provide good service to all.

You have to compare apples to apples. As I wrote, the only thing that comes close to the ENTIRE food service situation at Amtrak is the comparable situation on a cruise ship.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

One fact no one has pointed out is the labor cost Amtrak has for all aspects of its food service. If Olive Garden, Applebee's TGIF and all the rest had to pay the wages Amtrak pays you'd see prices at those restaurants at and above the Amtrak menu prices.

I'm not taking any position about the wages Amtrak pays. However, the fact remains that the Unions have overpriced their labor in relationship to the real world.

The only way Amtrak today can even begin to break even on food service would be to contract out the entire affair.

That's one very small piece of the puzzle.

First of all... Amtrak staff is full time. You can say what you want about the quality of service (and yes I've had my share of rude LSA's) but the Amtrak Dining car staff know what they are doing. Can you imagine if Amtrak contracted food service out and it was always part time staff with a high turnover rate? These people know how to work, walk, carry food, etc. on an 80 mph train on freight tracks. That's a unique skill you learn from experience.

Moving on... your point about if Olive Garden had to pay their staff what Amtrak pays and provide benefits is way off. If Olive Garden had to...

-Provide overnight lodging at the restaurant to all staff ever other night.

-Provide hotel acommodation to all staff every other night.

- Provide Transportation to the hotel from the restaurant every other night, and the following morning / day.

- Hire a staff to load and unload every piece of cutlery, every dish, all food, and all linens every other day.

It all adds up really fast!

 

[Train2104]

HARHBG: Your opinion about Unions pricing themselves out of the Market is right out of the Kock Brothers/Right Wing Playbook.

I do agree that Amtrak's Food and Beverage Service is in need of a Major Revision with Contracting it out being one of the ideas worth a look!

Just because most Service Industry Employees make less than $10 an Hour with No Benefits, while their employers make Millions or Billions, is no reason to bash hard working Unionized Amtrak employees that make $40-80k a year depending on expierence. YMMV

As the saying goes, if Congress and other Government Lifers were paid Minimum Wage, the Minimum Wage would be at least $50 an Hour if not more!

The real Story is that far too many hard working Americans are living Pay Check to Paycheck while the top 1% have more wealth and assests than the bottom 90% combined!

You could look it up!

Just because someone's idea is "right-winged" doesn't mean it should be shot down at first glance. There's more people who believe in it than you may think.

Paying high wages because you think it's the right thing to do is fine, but if you're trying to compete in a market where for almost everyone else that's not the case, I don't see how it would work from a business sense - unless you tout it as a benefit of your service or explain that's why the prices are high, which might draw some customers but it'll probably turn away some more too.

Are there other efficiencies that can be gained elsewhere? Sure. Are there management issues? Sure. But you can't dismiss a large proportion of cost as "untouchable" for "social reasons". I'm not saying that wages definitely need to be cut, I'm saying that the suggestion can't be dismissed on first mention.

 

[HARHBG]

An interesting "experiment" to watch will be Seattle, Washington where the minimum wage was raised to $15.00 something (not sure of the actual $ amount, but $15. is close) and how that has affected restaurant pricing.

I was in Seattle last fall and did notice that restaurant prices did seem a bit high compared to what I was used to but I wasn't out there doing a serious "study" of it and it certainly wasn't as outrageous as all the restaurateurs had predicted it would have to rise to OR did I see a wholesale closing of restaurants around the city, which was also predicted by the "Restaurant Industry".

Perhaps someone here on AU who lives in the Seattle area could weigh in on what's going on there.

Otherwise, the only "solution" I can see, in reality, is price Amtrak at the level that actually makes a profit.

Would ANY of you be willing to pay, say, $50, maybe $60+ for dinner in the dining car? How about $25 to $30 for breakfast?

It's great to "talk the talk" but........?????????

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

I know this is not a dining car situation, but how does the Downeaster manage to have a much better café menu than Amtrak, at more reasonable prices for better stuff, even though I believe it is contracted out?

Is there something to be learned from how they manage the café car up in Maine that could be applied to dining cars?

 

[tricia]

An interesting "experiment" to watch will be Seattle, Washington where the minimum wage was raised to $15.00 something (not sure of the actual $ amount, but $15. is close) and how that has affected restaurant pricing.

I was in Seattle last fall and did notice that restaurant prices did seem a bit high compared to what I was used to but I wasn't out there doing a serious "study" of it and it certainly wasn't as outrageous as all the restaurateurs had predicted it would have to rise to OR did I see a wholesale closing of restaurants around the city, which was also predicted by the "Restaurant Industry".

Perhaps someone here on AU who lives in the Seattle area could weigh in on what's going on there.

Otherwise, the only "solution" I can see, in reality, is price Amtrak at the level that actually makes a profit.

Would ANY of you be willing to pay, say, $50, maybe $60+ for dinner in the dining car? How about $25 to $30 for breakfast?

It's great to "talk the talk" but........?????????

There's a big gap between $15/hour and the $40,000 - $80,000 per year cited above.

Please note that I'm NOT taking a position here on what's the proper compensation for on-board staff. Nor do I have any idea whether the annual salary figures cited above are accurate. Just trying to connect one post with another....

 

[zephyr17]

I do want to note the quality of the food and service on the Iowa Pacific Hoosier State. The quality of their food is excellent, it is prepared fresh onboard and is very reasonably priced. I don't know what their wage structure is, but they certainly turn out a good product at a fair price in physical circumstances the same as Amtrak. In fact, their galley setup is not as good as a Superliner Diner, having a small galley space in a lounge car.

How they do it I do not know, but they do it.

 

[jis]

And how are their finances? That is very hard to tell in a private operation with no public accounts shared with anyone.

 

[Hal]

HARHBG: Your opinion about Unions pricing themselves out of the Market is right out of the Kock Brothers/Right Wing Playbook.

I do agree that Amtrak's Food and Beverage Service is in need of a Major Revision with Contracting it out being one of the ideas worth a look!

Just because most Service Industry Employees make less than $10 an Hour with No Benefits, while their employers make Millions or Billions, is no reason to bash hard working Unionized Amtrak employees that make $40-80k a year depending on expierence. YMMV

As the saying goes, if Congress and other Government Lifers were paid Minimum Wage, the Minimum Wage would be at least $50 an Hour if not more!

The real Story is that far too many hard working Americans are living Pay Check to Paycheck while the top 1% have more wealth and assests than the bottom 90% combined!

You could look it up!

Just because someone's idea is "right-winged" doesn't mean it should be shot down at first glance. There's more people who believe in it than you may think.

Paying high wages because you think it's the right thing to do is fine, but if you're trying to compete in a market where for almost everyone else that's not the case, I don't see how it would work from a business sense - unless you tout it as a benefit of your service or explain that's why the prices are high, which might draw some customers but it'll probably turn away some more too.

Are there other efficiencies that can be gained elsewhere? Sure. Are there management issues? Sure. But you can't dismiss a large proportion of cost as "untouchable" for "social reasons". I'm not saying that wages definitely need to be cut, I'm saying that the suggestion can't be dismissed on first mention.

It's not right wing. It's anti working people.

OBS on Amtrak deserves every penny of their compensation. Standing up for hours on moving trains, away from home and family, forced overtime, working holidays, weird work schedules, part of the crew in emergency situations......Its not Applebee's or McDonalds. They deserve more compensation, not cuts in their wages.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[neroden]

I know this is not a dining car situation, but how does the Downeaster manage to have a much better café menu than Amtrak, at more reasonable prices for better stuff, even though I believe it is contracted out?

Is there something to be learned from how they manage the café car up in Maine that could be applied to dining cars?

This. The Downeaster cafe is just plain better in every way.

 

[neroden]

OBS on Amtrak deserves every penny of their compensation. Standing up for hours on moving trains, away from home and family, forced overtime, working holidays, weird work schedules, part of the crew in emergency situations......Its not Applebee's or McDonalds. They deserve more compensation, not cuts in their wages.

Iowa Pacific provides better service for less money.The Downeaster provides better service for less money.

Either the other OBS on Amtrak are overpaid... or there's a giant money-suck somewhere other than their wages. Knowing Amtrak, I'd actually bet on the second option.

For instance, how much time do the OBS *WASTE*, and yes I mean *WASTE*, on counting stock and keeping track of paperwork? A point of sale system should simply eliminate this work entirely. They shouldn't be paid for this work because this work shouldn't be happening *at all*. Perhaps Iowa Pacific and Downeaster have more efficient accounting operations?

This is just one example. I don't know enough to find other examples, but knowing Amtrak, I expect there are others.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I know this is not a dining car situation, but how does the Downeaster manage to have a much better café menu than Amtrak, at more reasonable prices for better stuff, even though I believe it is contracted out?

Is there something to be learned from how they manage the café car up in Maine that could be applied to dining cars?

This. The Downeaster cafe is just plain better in every way.

As are the Surfliners and the Cascades Trains.(All State supported operations ).

 

[crescent-zephyr]

OBS on Amtrak deserves every penny of their compensation. Standing up for hours on moving trains, away from home and family, forced overtime, working holidays, weird work schedules, part of the crew in emergency situations......Its not Applebee's or McDonalds. They deserve more compensation, not cuts in their wages.

Iowa Pacific provides better service for less money.

That statement is debatable. I've ridden Iowa Pacific, Hoosier State, and Pullman from New Orleans. The service is WAY more classy, but "better" is debatable. To be fair, I rode the Hoosier State very early on, but the dining car staff was extremely confused. No one knew who's job was what. One man waited for 20 minutes to get change, and when he asked they could not seem to remember which staff member had taken his money in the first place. It could be this has all been ironed out now, but it also could be this is business as usual as new staff revolves in and out.

Now all the staff was extremely welcoming, and polite. and the service style was great. But I woudn't say it's perfect either.

(The Pullman Dining experience is really hard to compare since it was just 2 tables of guests, 1 waiter.)

Iowa Pacific still has to cover employee lodging at the non-crew base, transportation to the lodging, and loading / unloading of the train. If the employees are full time, they still have to offer insurance and benefits as well. And let's not forget last time I checked Amtrak service attendants start at like $16 an hour... that's not THAT much higher than minimum wage. (Currently $10 in Chicago). So where is all this savings coming from?

I DO think the Iowa Pacific Business model works as far as having a car that earns revenue in multiple ways. On the Hoosier State, one car serves as Business Class, Dining, and Snack Car.

 

[jis]

And it still is quite impossible to tell what IP's finances really are relative to this project. I tend to be equally skeptical of claims of business plans unless I get to see the actual numbers, irrespective of whether Amtrak, InDOT or IP is making such claims. It is entirely in IP's interest to claim all is hunky dory or better. Indeed it is a long tradition in the railroad industry to do so until suddenly it isn't.

 

[Manny T]

"... or there's a giant money-suck somewhere other than their wages. Knowing Amtrak, I'd actually bet on the second option."

Correct. This is from an Inspector General's report I have in my files, c. 2012:

"Our report last year documented long-standing internal control weaknesses and gaps over on-board food and beverage service.

We estimated that $4 million to $7 million of Amtrak's on-board food and beverage sales could be at risk of theft.

Between March 2003 and January 2010, we identified 903 theft, dishonesty, and policy/procedure violations by 306 lead service attendants, and issued 447 administrative referrals to Amtrak managers. The recurring schemes described in the report involve the falsification of documents to conceal missing food and beverage revenues and inventories. Specifically:

• inflating first-class meal checks. This scheme involves adding items to first-class passengers' meal checks---meals are provided free to first-class passengers---and selling these items to other passengers for cash.

• Selling non-Amtrak items. This scheme involves smuggling non-Amtrak items on board trains and selling them to passengers.

• Shorting cash register sales. This scheme involves selling items for their retail value and ringing up smaller amounts, with Amtrak employees pocketing the difference.

• Stealing inventory. This scheme involves directly taking food (rice, oil, eggs, and potatoes) and other items such as complimentary beverages, paper products, and open wine bottles.

• Providing items at no cost. This scheme involves providing customers with complimentary items and providing free drink refills without authorization. Compared with industry best practices, Amtrak lacked

• a loss-prevention unit with dedicated staff to manage loss..."

The sad thing is that even IF Amtrak eliminated ALL of the estimated $4-7 mil of loss due to theft and malfeasance, F&B service would still be tens of millions in the red.

 

[zephyr17]

OBS on Amtrak deserves every penny of their compensation. Standing up for hours on moving trains, away from home and family, forced overtime, working holidays, weird work schedules, part of the crew in emergency situations......Its not Applebee's or McDonalds. They deserve more compensation, not cuts in their wages.

Iowa Pacific provides better service for less money.

That statement is debatable. I've ridden Iowa Pacific, Hoosier State, and Pullman from New Orleans. The service is WAY more classy, but "better" is debatable. To be fair, I rode the Hoosier State very early on, but the dining car staff was extremely confused. No one knew who's job was what. One man waited for 20 minutes to get change, and when he asked they could not seem to remember which staff member had taken his money in the first place. It could be this has all been ironed out now, but it also could be this is business as usual as new staff revolves in and out.

Now all the staff was extremely welcoming, and polite. and the service style was great. But I woudn't say it's perfect either.

(The Pullman Dining experience is really hard to compare since it was just 2 tables of guests, 1 waiter.)

Iowa Pacific still has to cover employee lodging at the non-crew base, transportation to the lodging, and loading / unloading of the train. If the employees are full time, they still have to offer insurance and benefits as well. And let's not forget last time I checked Amtrak service attendants start at like $16 an hour... that's not THAT much higher than minimum wage. (Currently $10 in Chicago). So where is all this savings coming from?

I DO think the Iowa Pacific Business model works as far as having a car that earns revenue in multiple ways. On the Hoosier State, one car serves as Business Class, Dining, and Snack Car.

I rode it in December, and the service was well organized and friendly. The food was good to excellent, I was told that their chef choses what he offers on the Blue Plate Special. When I rode, the special was Shrimp & Grits and it was superb. It seems like an example of hire good people, then let them do what you hired them for with minimal interference.

As to their finances, I don't know. They get a relatively fixed subsidy from INDOT, IIRC and have to do everything within it. My guess is they, like the railroads, don't count their food service as a separate profit center, but as a feature to attract people to their service and get their revenue that way. In any case, they have to live or die within their revenue and subsidy.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

And it still is quite impossible to tell what IP's finances really are relative to this project. I tend to be equally skeptical of claims of business plans unless I get to see the actual numbers, irrespective of whether Amtrak, InDOT or IP is making such claims. It is entirely in IP's interest to claim all is hunky dory or better. Indeed it is a long tradition in the railroad industry to do so until suddenly it isn't.

I've never seen forty years of heavy losses in private business like we see every day with Amtrak. Are you saying this may be a temporary loss leading sleight of hand in order to drum up more business before reaching critical mass and establishing a much higher cost and/or much lower level of service?

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

• Providing items at no cost. This scheme involves providing customers with complimentary items and providing free drink refills without authorization. Compared with industry best practices, Amtrak lacked

Free drink refills ! ! ! ! OMG!

I also think that it is normal part of running any food establishment, to provide customers with complimentary items. Meal cold? OK, I'll comp you a free desert. Stuff like that.

 

[jis]

And it still is quite impossible to tell what IP's finances really are relative to this project. I tend to be equally skeptical of claims of business plans unless I get to see the actual numbers, irrespective of whether Amtrak, InDOT or IP is making such claims. It is entirely in IP's interest to claim all is hunky dory or better. Indeed it is a long tradition in the railroad industry to do so until suddenly it isn't.

I've never seen forty years of heavy losses in private business like we see every day with Amtrak. Are you saying this may be a temporary loss leading sleight of hand in order to drum up more business before reaching critical mass and establishing a much higher cost and/or much lower level of service?

Read the history of New York Central and Pennsylvania Railroad and then of Penn Central to learn about the wonders of railroad finances juggernaut pokery that ran for decades. Clearly you still have a lot to learn. Amtrak's account is completely above board compared that, well known, and a considered decision by the nation to eat the cost, just like for the highway system.
I am not making any claims about IP. I am just saying I don't know and don't know of a way of knowing.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

And it still is quite impossible to tell what IP's finances really are relative to this project. I tend to be equally skeptical of claims of business plans unless I get to see the actual numbers, irrespective of whether Amtrak, InDOT or IP is making such claims. It is entirely in IP's interest to claim all is hunky dory or better. Indeed it is a long tradition in the railroad industry to do so until suddenly it isn't.

I've never seen forty years of heavy losses in private business like we see every day with Amtrak. Are you saying this may be a temporary loss leading sleight of hand in order to drum up more business before reaching critical mass and establishing a much higher cost and/or much lower level of service?

Read the history of New York Central and Pennsylvania Railroad and then of Penn Central to learn about the wonders of railroad finances juggernaut pokery that ran for decades. Clearly you still have a lot to learn. Amtrak's account is completely above board compared that, well known, and a considered decision by the nation to eat the cost, just like for the highway system. I am not making any claims about IP. I am just saying I don't know and don't know of a way of knowing.

Those railroads were before my time but I might look for a book that could flesh it out for me. I was fascinated by railroading at early age but by the time I was self aware Penn Central had long since been rolled into Conrail. I wonder if Amtrak could have managed Conrail levels of success if it had been blessed with partial route ownership and voting rights over track usage rather than a silly note to the teacher system as currently implemented.

 

[MARC Rider]

Hey overpriced food is not just Amtrak. Jut 5 minutes ago,I wasover at the Hudson News stand at WAS and was checking out their food offerings. Some nice looking stuff, but boy is it expensive. Prefab sandwiches, they looked ok, but they were $8.99. Snack plates for $9.99, single serve Hummus for $4.50. Oversize 20 oz bottles of sugar I.e., soda for 2 bucks with the better drinks more. I can get a better sandwich right across the concourse at Pretty at Manger or Au Bon Pain for $5-6. I can get the hummus at my local grocery for $2.50. But the stuff at Hudson was securely packed so you can grab, pay, stuff in in your bag and go without having to worry about food leaks. But Pret et Manger is also pretty good in that regard.

Anyway, I suspect Hudson does not have the excuse of "overpaid union labor."

 

[HARHBG]

"... or there's a giant money-suck somewhere other than their wages. Knowing Amtrak, I'd actually bet on the second option."

Correct. This is from an Inspector General's report I have in my files, c. 2012:

"Our report last year documented long-standing internal control weaknesses and gaps over on-board food and beverage service.

We estimated that $4 million to $7 million of Amtrak's on-board food and beverage sales could be at risk of theft.

Between March 2003 and January 2010, we identified 903 theft, dishonesty, and policy/procedure violations by 306 lead service attendants, and issued 447 administrative referrals to Amtrak managers. The recurring schemes described in the report involve the falsification of documents to conceal missing food and beverage revenues and inventories. Specifically:

• inflating first-class meal checks. This scheme involves adding items to first-class passengers' meal checks---meals are provided free to first-class passengers---and selling these items to other passengers for cash.

• Selling non-Amtrak items. This scheme involves smuggling non-Amtrak items on board trains and selling them to passengers.

• Shorting cash register sales. This scheme involves selling items for their retail value and ringing up smaller amounts, with Amtrak employees pocketing the difference.

• Stealing inventory. This scheme involves directly taking food (rice, oil, eggs, and potatoes) and other items such as complimentary beverages, paper products, and open wine bottles.

• Providing items at no cost. This scheme involves providing customers with complimentary items and providing free drink refills without authorization. Compared with industry best practices, Amtrak lacked

• a loss-prevention unit with dedicated staff to manage loss..."

The sad thing is that even IF Amtrak eliminated ALL of the estimated $4-7 mil of loss due to theft and malfeasance, F&B service would still be tens of millions in the red.

Well, this is interesting, isn't it?? The highest paid wait staff in the country with full medical benefits and stellar RR Retirement plan is stealing millions of dollars a year from the company???

So much for the idea of higher pay brings a better quality employee.

 

[Bob Dylan]

A thief by any other Name is still a thief!

Best example would be the Rich Wall Street and Big Bank Crooks that brought us the Crash of 2008! ( still waiting on someone besides Bernie Madoff to go to jail!)

 

[Cina]

Can someone direct me towards someone selling those sweet "non-Amtrak items"? Are we talking like better sandwiches, quality beers...?

 

[Triley]

Can someone direct me towards someone selling those sweet "non-Amtrak items"? Are we talking like better sandwiches, quality beers...?

Pretty sure they mean something like going to the liquor store and bringing on a case of beer that is the same as what is already being sold, and pocketing the profit. I've heard of LSAs doing it before, and they've cracked down on a lot of it, thankfully. It's still far from perfect though.

I skimmed the OIG's report linked in this thread somewhere, and I agree that being able to mark down stuff that's expiring would could down on waste, and I think that's another great idea to move extra product as well. But again, there's bad apples. How would the system know it's actually out of date? There's too many people in this company that are just, well...bad apples, dislike the job, etc. I don't get it either, folks. But there's plenty of us "good" ones out there, that actually care, and go the extra mile when possible.