And here we go...

[seat38a]

Having three different classes or types of seating could be a problem for the crews insuring that people sat "where they belonged", and not try to get into higher priced seating...

Would probably require additonal train attendants to monitor....

I'm not saying I am against the concept, but just wanted to point out that possibility....

It's not a problem now so why would it be under the new setup? Conductors have no problem booting interlopers out of the business class car and the conductors also have indicators that they put on the seat check to know if your a coach passenger or business class.

 

[Anderson]

(1) Amtrak is going to end up in a strange place on this, since I suspect that jamming extra seats in on state routes would require the states' consent. That's going to very much depend on the state and the route: The needs of a passenger traveling from NYP-BUF or CHI-STL aren't the same as someone only going from NYP-PHL or CHI-MKE.
(2) Adjunct to this is the fact that a bunch of Regionals run into either VA or CT, which would result in "Regional roulette". I think the states might agree to an extra row of seats somewhere, but I can't see them agreeing to something that would jam in 2-3 extra rows and a bunch of other stuff to annoy constituents.
(3) In the PIPs, I remember a proposal to add an extra row or two of seats in LD Superliners...ironically due to there being too much legroom and a resulting issue with folks being able to effectively utilize the seatback trays.
(4) Finally, I do like the idea of adding a third class of service onto some trains. Let's face it, there is a crowd out there which would happily ride in a MARC commuter car from WAS-NYP if it saved them $20. On the other end of things, I'm pretty sure there's a market for a "First-ish" class on the Virginia trains given that while a lot of pax are only going to WAS (and some share are intrastate), there are plenty going up to PHL or NYP and those trips run 5-8 hours.

So, what would I do? On the Regional front I'd go to three classes. Let's say "Economy", "Main", and "Business". Economy drops an inch or so of legroom and gets a new seat design, but also takes up the discount pricing bucket. Main is what we call Coach right now. On the other end I'd marginally improve the Business product but also see what I could do about increasing the upcharge.

On the LD front I'd also include an "Economy" product akin to the old "shorts" coaches. I will say that I recall showing up for the Meteor one evening a few years back and landing in the shorts coach for a ride from WAS-RVR, and had I not been heading straight to the diner I would have been annoyed considering what I was expecting (the difference between a Regional Amfleet and a LD Amfleet is substantial in terms of legroom, and I'm usually in Business Class anyway).

 

[Chatter163]

Once you start introducing such "economy" options, it's only a matter of time before said options become the standard. Airlines first introduced "no frills" options in the seventies, and within twenty or so years, most of them were standard.

 

[railiner]

Once you start introducing such "economy" options, it's only a matter of time before said options become the standard. Airlines first introduced "no frills" options in the seventies, and within twenty or so years, most of them were standard.

I think you're right. They copied to a certain extant such airline practices as "Yield Management". Also, meals included with First Class fares, etc.,

So perhaps they will start charging for each bag, whether checked, or carry on. Or for more desirable seat location.

 

[MARC Rider]

Having though about this some more, I'm not sure it's a good idea or that it will help with anything.

1. More roomy seats at the economy price point is the one competitive advantage Amtrak has over every other form of transportation, and I include the auto in that. If you don't believe me, try taking a 4 hour ride in the backseat of your car. Even the front seat, as I found on a recent road trip, where i spent 2 days in agony in the passenger seat of the Kia Soul driving up I-95.

2. Will this really make more money for Amtrak? My experience as a regular rider on the Northeast corridor is that that I've never been shut out by a sold out train. Thus, there are still more "deluxe" seats to be sold at the "deluxe" coach fares. They would need to have some sort of vast untapped market of potential riders who wouldn't mind the more cramped seating. OK, in the Northeast, they could compete with Megabus, the Bolt Bus, the Chinatown buses, Vamoose, etc., but they'd have to charge those kinds of fares. (I just checked Bolt bus fares - $35 BAL-NYC for today (though most buses sold out), ~$15 advance purchase. Normal Northeast Regional fares are ~50 for Saver, usually have to pay $80-$130.) If you sell seats with bus-style seat pitch, you may get lots of new riders if you can keep the fares low enough, but how much revenue will you lose from existing riders, who are now paying the big bucks, but might be tempted to use this new economy class and save some big bucks?

3. The Palmetto and Pennsylvanian already run Amfleet I cars in addition to Amfleet 2 cars. Perhaps they could do a pilot on those trains and offer an economy class riding in the Amfleet I cars and see if there's a market for this on non-corridor trains.

4. Seating on the Capitol corridor in California is already pretty tight. The Pacific Surfliners are more like Amfleet Is. I don't now how it is on the San Joaquins.

5. Amfleet I coaches do have a bit more seat pitch than airliners, but not a whole lot more. Their real advantage is the seat width. I can't see squeezing 5 -across seating in an Amfleet, let alone 6-across seating. And I think that 5 or 6 across seating would not attract even the bus riders, So I'm not sure how they would configure this economy class seating.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

You could probably switch to a substantially thinner seat with equal comfort, leave legroom the same, reduce pitch, and add 4-8 more seats to the car. My Mercedes has front seats that are supremely comfortable- I can drive 350 miles, refill and relieve, and do it again before I feel like I need to rest. They also have a backrest roughly an inch and a half thick. I mean side bolsters make it seem thicker, but that's really it.

And if you make it 3-2 seating, that means our 68 seater with 17 rows becomes 19 rows with 95 seats, allowing you to reduce pricing 30% or so for the same revenue.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

I don't think it is a good idea to reduce seat size on Amfleet Is. Many NER routing that use exclusively Amfleets Is are longer than certain medium-distance lines that use both Amfleet types. For example, the Adirondack is 381 miles and the Pennsylvanian is 444 miles. Many of the NER trains from Boston into Virginia are over 600 miles, with the Norfolk Branch being 679, the Newport News Branch being 644, and the Lynchburg branch being 630 miles. Long-distance Amfleet IIs with less legroom would make it far harder to sleep, which is less of an issue for the airlines. As previously stated, another thing to consider is that this may eventually lead to a universal reduced seat size, even if it does not happen immediately. This is precisely what happened with the airlines.

 

[A Voice]

Amtrak has a capacity crunch both in the Northeast Corridor and nationwide, and can often fill every seat you put on the train. Reconfiguring the restrooms and such and slightly reducing seat pitch, to fit another couple rows, is not going to make a fundamental difference in the onboard experience. A switch to 3-2 seating would, but that's a rather radical assumption to make without evidence.

However, you do run the risk of an "economy coach" option cannibalizing the higher-revenue "regular' coach seating. People tend to make decisions based on the lowest price available. Greater revenue might actually be produced by introducing a deluxe option above business class (2-1 seating, etc.).

Hasn't Amtrak stated words to the effect of they have (some) money for a potential Amfleet I "refresh". Is this proposal related?

 

[A Voice]

Amtrak has a capacity crunch both in the Northeast Corridor and nationwide, and can often fill every seat you put on the train. Reconfiguring the restrooms and such and slightly reducing seat pitch, to fit another couple rows, is not going to make a fundamental difference in the onboard experience. A switch to 3-2 seating would, but that's a rather radical assumption to make without evidence.

However, you do run the risk of an "economy coach" option cannibalizing the higher-revenue "regular' coach seating. People tend to make decisions based on the lowest price available. Greater revenue might actually be produced by introducing a deluxe option above business class (2-1 seating, etc.).

Hasn't Amtrak stated words to the effect of they have (some) money for a potential Amfleet I "refresh". Is this proposal related?

 

[A Voice]

Amtrak has a capacity crunch both in the Northeast Corridor and nationwide, and can often fill every seat you put on the train. Reconfiguring the restrooms and such and slightly reducing seat pitch, to fit another couple rows, is not going to make a fundamental difference in the onboard experience. A switch to 3-2 seating would, but that's a rather radical assumption to make without evidence.

However, you do run the risk of an "economy coach" option cannibalizing the higher-revenue "regular' coach seating. People tend to make decisions based on the lowest price available. Greater revenue might actually be produced by introducing a deluxe option above business class (2-1 seating, etc.).

Hasn't Amtrak stated words to the effect of they have (some) money for a potential Amfleet I "refresh". Is this proposal related?

 

[tommylicious]

Steering it right into the mountain...

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

Northeast Regional coach already is a disaster. With the new pricing structure, though, I can avoid it by taking a long-distance train a short way--TRE to ALX, for example. If that's not possible (going north it isn't), then I have to get business class just to get a seat. The regional is used pretty much as commuter rail between New York and Philadelphia, and frankly, SEPTA going south and the newer NJT trains going north seem more comfortable (and that's really saying something when I have a nice comment about NJT!)

It is difficult to find a seat on the regionals if you are not getting on at a beginning point, and some conductors (not all) frankly don't care if you have one.

So if Amtrak wants to destroy something even further just to get a few more fares, I am fine with them destroying the regional, which is already awful.

If they go after any other trains, though, that will be much worse in my opinion.

 

[jebr]

I could see this being very useful to compete on shorter distances on the long distance routes, especially those with Superliners. According to Wikipedia, the current pitch for an Amtrak Superliner coach seat is 50-52", which is larger than most domestic first class cabins. A reduction to a 36" pitch (which is what First Class has on the Delta A321) with somewhat slimmer seat padding (while still comfortable) could allow a significant increase in capacity while still being able to market seat pitch "similar to First Class on an airline for an economy price." I'd be perfectly fine with that sort of pitch for a daytime trip.

I haven't ridden on an Amfleet in quite some time, so I'm not sure how much could be gained there, but on the long distance Superliner trains a cheaper product could drive quite a bit more business and allow Amtrak to stay competitive.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I could see this being very useful to compete on shorter distances on the long distance routes, especially those with Superliners. According to Wikipedia, the current pitch for an Amtrak Superliner coach seat is 50-52", which is larger than most domestic first class cabins. A reduction to a 36" pitch (which is what First Class has on the Delta A321) with somewhat slimmer seat padding (while still comfortable) could allow a significant increase in capacity while still being able to market seat pitch "similar to First Class on an airline for an economy price." I'd be perfectly fine with that sort of pitch for a daytime trip. I haven't ridden on an Amfleet in quite some time, so I'm not sure how much could be gained there, but on the long distance Superliner trains a cheaper product could drive quite a bit more business and allow Amtrak to stay competitive.

Does Amtrak coach really have much of a cost problem? Traveling from San Antonio to Dallas or Houston in Amtrak coach is already cheaper than taking a taxi to the train station. I would say that Amtrak coach has an uncomfortable design, sloppy recline, and lack of divider/armrest issue. It also suffers from not being able to choose your seat at time of booking regardless of cost. Pitch has varying significance depending on the design of the seat. Shoving Amtrak's bulky 1970's style chairs 16 inches closer could end up with worse legroom than Delta first class. I'm sure there is a reasonable middle ground somewhere in this mess that gives Amtrak more revenue without running folks like me away from coach class day trips and joy rides. The only question is if Amtrak is both willing and able to find and honor that middle ground. Hopefully the new CEO will be willing to find and respect that middle ground and Congress will stay the hell out of it.

 

[jebr]

That's why any major reduced seat pitch would require slimmer seats than what we have currently. The seats are almost over-padded for a short trip, and there's no need for that much padding if it requires a huge pitch to make it work.

As for cost, I guess I'm looking more at local trips from MSP - a 3 hour trip each way to La Crosse costs $23 each way on a Saver fare, which for my wife and I becomes a $92 round trip ticket. Six hours to Milwaukee is $48 each way, so a round trip for the two of us becomes $192 on a Saver fare (when you can find them, anyways...the lowest bucket Value fare is $240 round trip for two.) Compared to a Megabus or Greyhound ticket for less than half the price to Milwaukee (or even doing a weekend car rental and driving down) something to drive that cost down could help make the train a more competitive option for more than just a joy ride or because I really like riding the train (which is why, despite the cost, we often take Amtrak to WIN/LSE instead of driving.)

 

[PVD]

You could get an additional row into an AM1 losing an inch of pitch, and using a more modern seat, which if selected properly, could be slimmer than the existing seat without going all the way to the really uncomfortable ones some of the airlines chose. As long as they are much wider than airline seats (staying 2+2) rather than 3+2 like some of the commuter lines you could be ok. Honestly, pitch is generous on the corridor, yet many people don't particularly like the seats.

 

[Reno89502]

If they want to add airline style seating on the Amtrak trains, I believe it needs to be more along the lines of first class or business class that have the little flatbed pods like 99% of your airlines have in business and first-class. These would come in great on the overnight runs from Newport News to Boston, and vice versa. They could also give you an option on your long-distance trains as well. I would gladly pay a premium for a Lie flat business seat on the California Zephyr or the Southwest chief. I would've killed for one on those nights when I would have to do a run from New Haven down to Richmond Virginia on the overnight redeye train. I found those so-called leather seats very uncomfortable in business class.

 

[Anderson]

If they want to add airline style seating on the Amtrak trains, I believe it needs to be more along the lines of first class or business class that have the little flatbed pods like 99% of your airlines have in business and first-class. These would come in great on the overnight runs from Newport News to Boston, and vice versa. They could also give you an option on your long-distance trains as well. I would gladly pay a premium for a Lie flat business seat on the California Zephyr or the Southwest chief. I would've killed for one on those nights when I would have to do a run from New Haven down to Richmond Virginia on the overnight redeye train. I found those so-called leather seats very uncomfortable in business class.

Though it's a first-generation design in need of some work (which is to say, it's a first-generation design), Queensland Rail has done this with some success on the Spirit of Queensland. The main issue, if I'm not mistaken, has been agency approval for a design for use on a railroad instead of in a plane (combined with slightly different cabin constraints, of course).