ARC Project

[Hanno]

I received this email from NARP. NARP wants to stop this project. Does that make sense? I'm not sure I understand what is happening here but $8.7 billion could be used in many positive ways to enhance rail transportation.

"Why the ARC project is flawed and what you can do about it...

Access to the Region's Core (ARC) is a New Jersey Transit project to add additional rail capacity near New York City's Pennsylvania Station and bore two new tunnels under the Hudson River. The official cost of project cost is $8.7 billion dollars, with the federal government expected to provide at least $3 billion.

However, as currently designed, the project will not include a connection between the new tunnels and New York City's Penn Station. This connection, which NARP regards as essential, and which Amtrak tried hard to defend, was dropped as of June, 2007. The new tunnels will connect only to a deep cavern, dead-end station 15 stories under 34th Street (two blocks north of Penn Station), to be used only by New Jersey Transit.

There also are no provisions for a connection to Grand Central Station."

 

[MrEd]

The ARC project extends from Frank R. Lautenberg Station in Secaucus, New Jersey to Sixth Avenue/Broadway and West 34th Street in Manhattan. As currently envisioned, the project would include the construction of a new track connection between the Main/Bergen/Pascack Valley Lines and the Northeast Corridor (NEC) at Secaucus Junction, a new rail yard in Kearny, New Jersey and two new tunnels under the Palisades in New Jersey and the Hudson River that would connect to a facility under West 34th street with passenger connections to existing Penn Station and New York City Transit. The new facility would be an expansion of existing PSNY and referred to as New York Penn Station Expansion (NYPSE).

 

[Hanno]

The ARC project extends from Frank R. Lautenberg Station in Secaucus, New Jersey to Sixth Avenue/Broadway and West 34th Street in Manhattan. As currently envisioned, the project would include the construction of a new track connection between the Main/Bergen/Pascack Valley Lines and the Northeast Corridor (NEC) at Secaucus Junction, a new rail yard in Kearny, New Jersey and two new tunnels under the Palisades in New Jersey and the Hudson River that would connect to a facility under West 34th street with passenger connections to existing Penn Station and New York City Transit. The new facility would be an expansion of existing PSNY and referred to as New York Penn Station Expansion (NYPSE).

Is NARP's objection to this project justified?

 

[battalion51]

I believe NARP has a valid point in their objection. ARC is a very large project, and should be able to benefit a larger number of people who use trains to get into and out of NYC. As it stands right now only New Jersey commuters will benefit from this project. If the tunnels link into the maze that is the current Penn Station it will give more options for both Amtrak and NJT to use. It would also allow more rehabilitation and upgrade projects to happen on the current trans-Hudson tunnels. A connection to GCT is also and important consideration. Even though they're only a few blocks from each other it's east side access vs. west side access. Making that connection could greatly reduce the commute for a larger number of people who commute in the tri-state area.

 

[AlanB]

IMHO, failure to connect the new tunnels to the existing Penn Station is a huge mistake. I'm not sure that it justifies a no-build scenario either, but it is something that must be put back into the plan and something that everyone should be fighting for.

 

[PRR 60]

IMHO, failure to connect the new tunnels to the existing Penn Station is a huge mistake. I'm not sure that it justifies a no-build scenario either, but it is something that must be put back into the plan and something that everyone should be fighting for.

Why is that important, and at what cost to the project? NARP is, as usual, a little short of details.

 

[AlanB]

IMHO, failure to connect the new tunnels to the existing Penn Station is a huge mistake. I'm not sure that it justifies a no-build scenario either, but it is something that must be put back into the plan and something that everyone should be fighting for.

Why is that important, and at what cost to the project? NARP is, as usual, a little short of details.

Because it provides major flexibility to both NJT and Amtrak if a train lays down in a tunnel or a switch fails. IIRC, the original cost wasn't that large for that connectivity. Jishnu could probably explain things better, but I believe that the main reason that the connection was cut is not the cost of it. It's due to caving into environmentalists that want to ensure that the tunnel doesn't accidentally damage rotting piers on the Hudson River. Therefore the new plan has the tunnels coming in at a greater depth than originally planned, which in turn makes the grade too steep for a connection to the existing Penn.

 

[Sam Damon]

Jis,

If you've got a better explanation than Alan, post it. While I'm not in newsbiz the way I used to be, I do have a number of connections who need to know the details on this. Most important: the facts have to be DEAD STRAIGHT. If they aren't, it's game over, folks.

If we're going to build new connections to Manhattan Island, IMO it's gotta connect into the existing stuff and have maximum flexibility. This sort of project only comes along once in a lifetime or so, which is why it's vitally important to do it RIGHT.

Our ancestors didn't do a bad job with both Penn Station and GCT. We may get our shot this time around.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Jis,
If you've got a better explanation than Alan, post it. While I'm not in newsbiz the way I used to be, I do have a number of connections who need to know the details on this. Most important: the facts have to be DEAD STRAIGHT. If they aren't, it's game over, folks.

If we're going to build new connections to Manhattan Island, IMO it's gotta connect into the existing stuff and have maximum flexibility. This sort of project only comes along once in a lifetime or so, which is why it's vitally important to do it RIGHT.

Our ancestors didn't do a bad job with both Penn Station and GCT. We may get our shot this time around.

Penn station tunnels.. could use some more of that... really. I see now real strong reason to avoid it.,

 

[Green Maned Lion]

PSNYE is a misnomer. There are no plans to connect it internally to the existing station. That is, to board a 1/2/3/A/C/E train, you'd have to leave PSNYE, walk about a block, and enter NYP.

The tunnel station is a "deep cavern" 175 ft under the ground. There is an intention to route all MidtownDirect trains into it, as well as most or all NJCL and NEC trains. There are a variety of objections to it. The Lackawanna Coalition (of which I am a member) has a lot of extensive objections and information about it, if you're interested. Lackawanna Coaltion

 

[AlanB]

PSNYE is a misnomer. There are no plans to connect it internally to the existing station. That is, to board a 1/2/3/A/C/E train, you'd have to leave PSNYE, walk about a block, and enter NYP.

No, that's not true. From ARC:

The ARC project extends from Frank R. Lautenberg Station in Secaucus, New Jersey to Sixth Avenue/Broadway and West 34th Street in Manhattan. As currently envisioned, the project would include the construction of a new track connection between the Main/Bergen/Pascack Valley Lines and the Northeast Corridor (NEC) at Secaucus Junction, a new rail yard in Kearny, New Jersey and two new tunnels under the Palisades in New Jersey and the Hudson River that would connect to a facility under West 34th street with passenger connections to existing Penn Station and New York City Transit. The new facility would be an expansion of existing PSNY and referred to as New York Penn Station Expansion (NYPSE).

I've highlighted the relevant part.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Lackawanna Coaltion

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The document you requested is not found.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

There is an intention to route all MidtownDirect trains into it, as well as most or all NJCL and NEC trains.

How do you reroute all the NEC trains that run to Boston or Springfield into NYPSE when there's nowhere for them to continue east of NYPSE?

And what trains does that leave running through the old tunnels?

 

[battalion51]

I'm sure you'd still see NJT using the old tunnels for some of their trains. There will be some that will be rerouted to the new tunnel, but it seems to be mainly for expansion of service, rather than complete replacement of the current Hudson tunnels. All Amtrak trains will also continue to use the existing Hudson tunnels.

 

[AlanB]

There is an intention to route all MidtownDirect trains into it, as well as most or all NJCL and NEC trains.

How do you reroute all the NEC trains that run to Boston or Springfield into NYPSE when there's nowhere for them to continue east of NYPSE?

And what trains does that leave running through the old tunnels?

By NEC trains, he means NJT's NEC line, not Amtrak's.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

PSNYE is a misnomer. There are no plans to connect it internally to the existing station. That is, to board a 1/2/3/A/C/E train, you'd have to leave PSNYE, walk about a block, and enter NYP.

No, that's not true. From ARC:

I know what it says, but that disagrees with the papers I am looking at on my desk describing the thing.

 

[AlanB]

PSNYE is a misnomer. There are no plans to connect it internally to the existing station. That is, to board a 1/2/3/A/C/E train, you'd have to leave PSNYE, walk about a block, and enter NYP.

No, that's not true. From ARC:

I know what it says, but that disagrees with the papers I am looking at on my desk describing the thing.

Well go through the ARC site, since that's the official site, and you'll find other references and pictures.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The information I have on my desk is just as official and it disagrees with that, since there does not appear to be any connection between the stations in these plans, or the budget.