Baltimore Sun: Girl's death ratchets up debate on rail safety

[benjad]

Just when you thought personal responsibility might be coming back:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/features/commu...0,6405608.story

 

[Bob Dylan]

Just when you thought personal responsibility might be coming back:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/features/commu...0,6405608.story

Here we go again! To me the key to the whole story was the parent saying "..common sense.." "Amtrak needs to do something.." and the real important point: "the expense is massive.." The so called reporters that write these pieces of crap that they call news need to either get an education or get into another field! I hope I'm not getting too cynical in my old age but we all die when our time comes, it's just a matter of when and how.

As a parent and grandparent I've always tried to teach and model reasonable behaviour but we can't do cradle to grave safety for anyone!

Almost forgot, the story also mentioned that the area is criss crossed by railroad tracks and all kinds of accidents and deaths have occured for many years! This is like the people who move next to an airport and complain about noise from jets, hello, there's trains running in your neighborhood, they are dangerous and it's your fault if you get hit by a train no matter how old you are if you are walking on the tracks! If youre an innocent child and a dunderhead adult drives you in front of a train or takes "cute" videos of kids playing in front of trains then the so called adult is an idiot and a potential murderer! :angry:

 

[Ryan]

It's good to see (except for the spam) that the comments are almost universally in favor of "personal responsibility" and against this misguided piece of "journalism".

 

[TVRM610]

That article makes me want to jump in front of a train.... I mean really people. I worked as a conductor for a small shortline railroad for a few years and we were taught over and over again NEVER walk within the gauge of the track under any circumstances. And this was around noisy diesels going a max. speed of 25 mph!

The very idea that someone of any age passes through a cut in a chain link fence, passes No Trespassing signs, and then walks down the middle of a train track while wearing an ipod and then the family blames the railroad???? I simply do not understand this at all, it is complete lunacy to blame the railroad.

As for the argument that teenagers "don't think" well that is something that they need to learn. If you go out to a night club drinking in Bermuda and go off with two random guys that you don't know... something bad could happen. If you go walking on train tracks.... something bad could happen. No matter what age you are if you do stupid things bad things can happen.

 

[RRrich]

Of course everyone should take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY but we are dealing with teen-agers!

I spent 20 years trying to teach them, I love them but they have some faults - like thinking they are invulnerable and not considering the possible bad results of their actions. Amtrak tries to do the right thing with chain link fencing but the kids swipe Dad's wire cutters. Trains are noisy but kids wear Ipods with the volume turned way up.

Adults try and teach kids but the little cherubs don't listen - actually some do and those that don't - some survive. Its a shame.

 

[TVRM610]

Of course everyone should take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY but we are dealing with teen-agers!
I spent 20 years trying to teach them, I love them but they have some faults - like thinking they are invulnerable and not considering the possible bad results of their actions. Amtrak tries to do the right thing with chain link fencing but the kids swipe Dad's wire cutters. Trains are noisy but kids wear Ipods with the volume turned way up.

Adults try and teach kids but the little cherubs don't listen - actually some do and those that don't - some survive. Its a shame.

What are you saying RRrich? I don't understand your point. That teen-agers will do stupid things?

Alot of kids used to (i don't know if they still) climb trees and see how high they can get... if said kid falls from tree is it the tree's responsibility? Or the owner of the tree for not putting up a chain link... oh wait that wouldn't work... a concrete barrier around the tree?

The fact that it was a teenager makes no difference to me... teenagers do have a brain, if they choose not to use it that is their own fault.

 

[sweet tea]

wow. harsh, y'all.

here, to me, are critical points from that article:

Geography has made the Middle River-Essex area unusually vulnerable to tragedy on the tracks. Between Rossville Boulevard on the west and Martin Boulevard on the east runs a 2-mile stretch of railroad right of way - four tracks across - without a legal crossing. On both sides are residential neighborhoods; on the south side are several schools.

i know we all walked 10 miles uphill both ways in the driving snow to get to school, but when was the last time you personally walked 2 miles out of your way to get somewhere? that's quite far when you're running late in the morning.

it seems perfectly reasonable to suggest installing a couple of raised crossings, so that pedestrians can safely cross without slowing the train, but...

Rob Kulat, a spokesman for the Federal Railroad Administration, [...] While Kulat suggested that the county consider an overpass or underpass - an idea broached by several local residents - he said the best approach is education.
"The railroads are not responsible for people's laziness,"

He sure comes across as a jerk to me.

 

[Ryan]

Jerk or not, the guy is right. If the community wants a legal crossing, then they can get Baltimore County to put one in. Amtrak's not responsible for that.

 

[Amtrak839]

natural selection

–noun

the process by which forms of life having traits that better enable them to adapt to specific environmental pressures, such as predators fast moving trains, changes in climate, or competition for food or mates, will tend to survive and reproduce in greater numbers than others of their kind, thus ensuring the perpetuation of those favorable traits in succeeding generations

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

If the community wants a legal crossing, then they can get Baltimore County to put one in. Amtrak's not responsible for that.

While the legal tradition in this country apparently says that Amtrak shouldn't be the party to pay for a legal crossing, and Amtrak has enough trouble finding money for things they are responsible for, I don't think it would be inappropriate for Amtrak to help whomever is try to find potential sources of federal funding, etc.

I also assume Amtrak occasionally puts some effort into closing up illegal crossings. Isn't there some point when Amtrak might decide spending a couple person weeks of Amtrak staff time helping the neighbors ask the federal government for a proper solution would cost Amtrak less than repeatedly repairing the fence, even if we ignore the safety benefits?

I also think it would make a lot of sense for Amtrak to identify the 10 points on the NEC that would most benefit from new legal pedestrian crossings, and publish that list. Factors to look at include where holes most frequently appear in the fences, population density (and how pedestrian and transit oriented vs car oriented the area is) and distance between existing legal crossings.

 

[The Metropolitan]

A little history - the railroad was there long before the communities were the size they are now.

As I mentioned in the other post on this, and is echoed by Sweet Tea's post, there is a considerable distance of 2 miles between legal crossings, yet the community is fully built on both sides of the tracks. A 14 year old as well as any non motorist can't simply drive around to the next crossing, they have to walk, and in this case, that turns out a be a very lengthy distance.

I don't abitrarily excuse the young lady of her own personal responsibilty for her own safety, but I don't think too many people would voluntarily walk over a mile in distance in freezing weather when there's a well worn shortcut path available that involves trespassing. I tend to doubt too many folks even on here would willingly make a half hour long walk when they could shortcut. After all, I've seen posts here where people seem quite hopeful that they're in the sleeper closest to the dining car to minimize their walking!

I'd be willing to bet that the FRA spokesman hasn't walked a mile in sometime as well.

When the developers built these areas from the 40's to the 60's, they should have found a way to fund an overhead walkway over the tracks to avoid situations and temptations like these. As it was, they followed the typical Baltimore County principles of the times and didn't even put sidewalks in most places. I guess they figured that this was to be a "free" automobile suburb, and sidewalks and safe crossings of the tracks were a needless expense.

Baltimore County has almost certainly been aware of the problem for some time, and should have taken some initiative so something like this wouldn't happen. Instead a young girl dies and everyone begins the reactive blame game,

 

[DowneasterPassenger]

A little history - the railroad was there long before the communities were the size they are now.
As I mentioned in the other post on this, and is echoed by Sweet Tea's post, there is a considerable distance of 2 miles between legal crossings, yet the community is fully built on both sides of the tracks. A 14 year old as well as any non motorist can't simply drive around to the next crossing, they have to walk, and in this case, that turns out a be a very lengthy distance.

I don't abitrarily excuse the young lady of her own personal responsibilty for her own safety, but I don't think too many people would voluntarily walk over a mile in distance in freezing weather when there's a well worn shortcut path available that involves trespassing. I tend to doubt too many folks even on here would willingly make a half hour long walk when they could shortcut. After all, I've seen posts here where people seem quite hopeful that they're in the sleeper closest to the dining car to minimize their walking!

I'd be willing to bet that the FRA spokesman hasn't walked a mile in sometime as well.

When the developers built these areas from the 40's to the 60's, they should have found a way to fund an overhead walkway over the tracks to avoid situations and temptations like these. As it was, they followed the typical Baltimore County principles of the times and didn't even put sidewalks in most places. I guess they figured that this was to be a "free" automobile suburb, and sidewalks and safe crossings of the tracks were a needless expense.

Baltimore County has almost certainly been aware of the problem for some time, and should have taken some initiative so something like this wouldn't happen. Instead a young girl dies and everyone begins the reactive blame game,

Put the NEC in a trench.

Reno has a nice one that eliminates all grade crossings and reduces trespassing (at least for shortcuts, I suppose you can still trespass by walking in the end of the trench). Also reduces train horn noise.

Accidents between trains and cars or pedestrians at 11 former rail crossings were eliminated. "Nobody has been hit by a train" since the trench opened in November 2005, Lee said....In all, the trench has cost the city $282 million.

 

[the_traveler]

Rob Kulat, a spokesman for the Federal Railroad Administration, [...] While Kulat suggested that the county consider an overpass or underpass - an idea broached by several local residents - he said the best approach is education.
"The railroads are not responsible for people's laziness,"

I agree with him there! If the local residents would like an overpass or underpass, why not have them pay for it? :huh: I would not be at all against it, but why should Amtrak (or I as a taxpayer) have to pay for it? :huh:

The same could be used as an argument for me in RI paying for a road in CA via my tax dollars, but I see a BIG difference. there is a chance that I may at some time drive on that road in CA, but there is a VERY SLIGHT CHANCE (far less than 0.0000000000000001%) of my having to walk across that overpass to get from one side of the tracks to the other side of the tracks!

 

[AlanB]

While building an overhead/underneath crossing will help to some extent, don't believe for one minute that it will stop all the illegal crossings, especially if it's an overhead. People don't like having to go out of their way, period. Any overhead involves long winding ramps or stairs to get to the top and then back down. If people have a straight shot across the tracks, some will still take it no matter what. Consider the following:

A few years back I was driving up the Harlem River Drive *HRD) in NY. For those not familiar with the lay of the land, the HRD basically runs up the east side of Manhattan from 125th Street to just shy of the northern tip of Manhattan and it does so more or less along the edge of the East River. In some places the highway is right on the edge of the river, in others there is room for a small park between the highway and the river's edge.

On this fateful day as I was headed northbound just moments before I reached the area around 145th Street a young man had beenn hit and killed by a southbound car. Rescue vehicles were still arriving as I was driving past and so I could see the victim as yet uncovered lying in the roadway and it wasn't pretty. He had been trying to get to the park and choose to cross this very busy 6 lane highway that has nothing more than a Jersey barrier for a median.

The really sad part; his body landed 2 feet from a pedestrian overpass.

Had he but gone slightly out of his way, maybe 50 feet at most, to use that bridge he would still be alive today.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

The same could be used as an argument for me in RI paying for a road in CA via my tax dollars, but I see a BIG difference. there is a chance that I may at some time drive on that road in CA, but there is a VERY SLIGHT CHANCE (far less than 0.0000000000000001%) of my having to walk across that overpass to get from one side of the tracks to the other side of the tracks!

Does the Kingston, RI train station have an overpass to get from one side of the tracks to the other? If so, who paid for it?

 

[TVRM610]

A little history - the railroad was there long before the communities were the size they are now.
As I mentioned in the other post on this, and is echoed by Sweet Tea's post, there is a considerable distance of 2 miles between legal crossings, yet the community is fully built on both sides of the tracks. A 14 year old as well as any non motorist can't simply drive around to the next crossing, they have to walk, and in this case, that turns out a be a very lengthy distance.

I don't abitrarily excuse the young lady of her own personal responsibilty for her own safety, but I don't think too many people would voluntarily walk over a mile in distance in freezing weather when there's a well worn shortcut path available that involves trespassing. I tend to doubt too many folks even on here would willingly make a half hour long walk when they could shortcut. After all, I've seen posts here where people seem quite hopeful that they're in the sleeper closest to the dining car to minimize their walking!

I'd be willing to bet that the FRA spokesman hasn't walked a mile in sometime as well.

When the developers built these areas from the 40's to the 60's, they should have found a way to fund an overhead walkway over the tracks to avoid situations and temptations like these. As it was, they followed the typical Baltimore County principles of the times and didn't even put sidewalks in most places. I guess they figured that this was to be a "free" automobile suburb, and sidewalks and safe crossings of the tracks were a needless expense.

Baltimore County has almost certainly been aware of the problem for some time, and should have taken some initiative so something like this wouldn't happen. Instead a young girl dies and everyone begins the reactive blame game,

I would not cross the 4 tracks of the NEC even if you paid me $500. That is crazy talk.

I also take offense to the idea that if someone has a good reason, then it is ok to break the law. What would you do if a kid cut through your backyard on the way to school? Would you say "well it saves them time cause they might have to walk all the way around the block if they didn't" perhaps some of you would think that, but I bet alot of you would threaten to call authorities or parents etc. Trespassing is against the law people.

 

[the_traveler]

Put the NEC in a trench.
Reno has a nice one that eliminates all grade crossings and reduces trespassing (at least for shortcuts, I suppose you can still trespass by walking in the end of the trench). Also reduces train horn noise.

Accidents between trains and cars or pedestrians at 11 former rail crossings were eliminated. "Nobody has been hit by a train" since the trench opened in November 2005, Lee said....In all, the trench has cost the city $282 million.

And the trench is what - 4 miles long? :huh: Multiply that by all 300-400+ miles of the NEC!

Why should just that town in MD have a trench? We in KIN have the AE passing thru at 150 MPH, and want a trench too! And NLC has a number of grade crossings near the station (including to the ferries that cross Long Island Sound, and are right across from the station) - so that has to be in a trench, And ... So why not just put the whole NEC in a trench? :huh:

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

I also take offense to the idea that if someone has a good reason, then it is ok to break the law. What would you do if a kid cut through your backyard on the way to school? Would you say "well it saves them time cause they might have to walk all the way around the block if they didn't" perhaps some of you would think that, but I bet alot of you would threaten to call authorities or parents etc. Trespassing is against the law people.

I wonder if the school's discipline system might also be a contributing factor. Is it possible that a student is more likely to be punished for being late than for taking an unsafe route to school and arriving on time?

 

[the_traveler]

The same could be used as an argument for me in RI paying for a road in CA via my tax dollars, but I see a BIG difference. there is a chance that I may at some time drive on that road in CA, but there is a VERY SLIGHT CHANCE (far less than 0.0000000000000001%) of my having to walk across that overpass to get from one side of the tracks to the other side of the tracks!

Does the Kingston, RI train station have an overpass to get from one side of the tracks to the other? If so, who paid for it?

Yes, it does - but there is a big difference. It is at the location of a station stop! I do not think many (or any) trains stop at this site!

 

[the_traveler]

I also take offense to the idea that if someone has a good reason, then it is ok to break the law. What would you do if a kid cut through your backyard on the way to school? Would you say "well it saves them time cause they might have to walk all the way around the block if they didn't" perhaps some of you would think that, but I bet alot of you would threaten to call authorities or parents etc. Trespassing is against the law people.

I wonder if the school's discipline system might also be a contributing factor. Is it possible that a student is more likely to be punished for being late than for taking an unsafe route to school and arriving on time?

I have a feeling that girl is not going to be punished by the school again!

Hey, I'm late for my flight! Instead of driving all the way around the airport to get to the terminal, I'll just drive along these roads they have built already. So what if it's the active runway!

 

[Trogdor]

I'm not familiar with the area, but one question that comes to my mind (based on the text of the article) is, why are there "several" schools on one side of the tracks, yet (apparently?) no schools on the other side?

If that is the case, then city planners must (indirectly) take some responsibility for this as well. City planning over the last half-century (and, really, longer) has done an absolutely horrible job at making communities practical and livable. One such measure of that is whether or not you can reasonably (and safely) walk to/from many of your everyday destinations.

Unless a child goes to some specialized or private school (or lives way out in the sticks, with nothing but trees and farmland for miles around), there's no reason they shouldn't be able to, safely, walk to/from school.

Yes, we can scream "individual responsibility" until we're blue in the face, and, ultimately, it is the individual's responsibility to see to his/her own personal safety. But, it is also society's responsibility to see to it that we are collectively safe, and that we're not putting any folks in a position where they have to take undue risks themselves, just because some dimwit planner figured it would be a good idea to build a bunch of houses on one side of the (uncrossable) railroad tracks, a bunch of schools on the other side, and the school district decides that the student should go to school A, because the straight-line distance from that student's home may only be 1,000 feet, but it requires a 2.5-mile detour because there's no straight-line access from home to school.

 

[Bob Dylan]

We all know stupidity knows no age and caring about others is truely the way to live BUT: The State I live in is consistantly in the top 3 in rail/vehicle collisions and last time I checked no trains were leaving the rails and going after vehicles or people except in bad horror movies! :lol:

Submitted that this is a perfect example of "Let Washington/Austin/Sacramento etc. pay for it, Free money!"

That's my biggest gripe with right wing yahoos, they want stuff but dont want to pay for it!ALL tax money comes out of our pockets, including what businesses pay, they just raise prices when taxes go up!

We either want to have the necessities and the bells and whistles that we want in our neighborhood/city/state/nation or we dont! Our system is set up for representative democracy, we elect people to decide what we need and they decide how much it costs and where it goes, we pay for the common good, it's called civilization! NO public service has ever made money an d the silly and crooked scheme of contracting out government services is coming home to roost!(Need a cop, call Blackwater!Opps!) If government actually spent money on basic services instead of wasteing it on boondoggles with so called "private enterprise" aka contractors)and didnt let greedy developers build sprawling cities loaded with too many roads, no sidewalks and bridges etc. we wouldnt have this problem. It's called urban planning and most cities fail miserably! Kudoos to Portland,Oregon, they are on the right track so to speak! :lol:

Theres no way on Gods green earth that Amtrak or any of us are responsible for the people that do these dumb and dumber things, it's their fault and in the case of children their families for not educating them! It's not the schools fault, societys fault, it's their fault! Simple saying, simply true!

The sad truth is that if we had National Health (how absurd is medical care for profit!) many,many more people, young and old, would be healthier and fewer would die than have been killed by railroads in our history! As Casey Stengel used to say: "You could look it up!"

Like it or not there is such a thing as personal responsibility but we are also our brothers keeper!!Whatever you want where you live, convince your neighbors to pay for it and they will build it if you are willing to pay for it! If not, don't complain or ask others to pay your share!

 

[Cascadia]

City planning over the last half-century (and, really, longer) has done an absolutely horrible job at making communities practical and livable. One such measure of that is whether or not you can reasonably (and safely) walk to/from many of your everyday destinations.

You said just what I was thinking after reading through the thread. It seems to me that the discussion around this incident and this situation should be couched in terms of pedestrian accommodation in general. That should be the bigger picture and the focus of debate for the community where this happened.

That puts the conversation in a more positive, proactive form for a response to this tragedy, and puts it in a larger more forward-looking context.

Certainly the general lack of pedestrian accommodation in many places has nothing to do with Amtrak!

 

[TVRM610]

City planning over the last half-century (and, really, longer) has done an absolutely horrible job at making communities practical and livable. One such measure of that is whether or not you can reasonably (and safely) walk to/from many of your everyday destinations.

You said just what I was thinking after reading through the thread. It seems to me that the discussion around this incident and this situation should be couched in terms of pedestrian accommodation in general. That should be the bigger picture and the focus of debate for the community where this happened.

That puts the conversation in a more positive, proactive form for a response to this tragedy, and puts it in a larger more forward-looking context.

Certainly the general lack of pedestrian accommodation in many places has nothing to do with Amtrak!

I do agree with this idea... I live in a town that has a lovely walkway that was built to link one mall with another. However, the city could not get permission to finish the walkway to get to the actual mall so one must cross a 4 lane highway with no cross-walk and walk along the side of the highway with no sidewalk for a few hundred feet to get to this walkway which was built to "create a safe path for pedestrians walking to and from the mall." Hmm... something is wrong here.

 

[The Metropolitan]

I also take offense to the idea that if someone has a good reason, then it is ok to break the law. What would you do if a kid cut through your backyard on the way to school? Would you say "well it saves them time cause they might have to walk all the way around the block if they didn't" perhaps some of you would think that, but I bet alot of you would threaten to call authorities or parents etc. Trespassing is against the law people.

Comprehending it and excusing it are not one and the same. I don't excuse it, though I can comprehend it, particulalry when one considers that this was probably a daily 2-way passage for this student. Was it the right thing to do - no.

rmadisonwi and Cascadia seem to get what I'm trying to convey. Instead of simply pinning it ALL on personal responsibility, someone should have taken a step back long before now to look at the root causes and try to address those. I'm sure students, parents, the County Police, and even Amtrak were well aware that this was happening regularly - the question is - did anyone try to do something to help prevent what happened?