Bedroom price vs. first class airfare

[jmbgeg]

I travel via Amtrak no matter what. The most expensive trips I use points. Here is one example why. A first class airline ticket geg-lax (spk-lax) is $932 round trip. Amtrak is $3,556 on my hypothetical June travel dates. That's for a short 8 hour EB trip plus PDX-LAX. :blink:

I guess in part that how I got to nearly 30k rail miles last year.

 

[GlobalistPotato]

I travel via Amtrak no matter what. The most expensive trips I use points. Here is one example why. A first class airline ticket geg-lax (spk-lax) is $932 round trip. Amtrak is $3,556 on my hypothetical June travel dates. That's for a short 8 hour EB trip plus PDX-LAX. :blink:

I guess in part that how I got to nearly 30k rail miles last year.

You're going to have to book out farther than that for a fair comparison.

Well, I did the same itinerary, but it was for next January instead of this June. Amtrak comes out round trip of $1,592. Delta Airlines was at $1,052 for first class.

 

[me_little_me]

I travel via Amtrak no matter what. The most expensive trips I use points. Here is one example why. A first class airline ticket geg-lax (spk-lax) is $932 round trip. Amtrak is $3,556 on my hypothetical June travel dates. That's for a short 8 hour EB trip plus PDX-LAX. :blink:

I guess in part that how I got to nearly 30k rail miles last year.

Apples to oranges comparison.

Air travel is pure transportation. Even in first class, there is no "enjoyment", just slightly less hassle and comfort. It is best compared to coach travel on the train albeit, it's speed is much faster for long distances if time to destination is the most important factor.

Train travel using a sleeper is a vacation in itself. For those who can't fly due to medical reasons, fear of flying or whatever, then first class air is no alternative.

 

[Tumbleweed]

I travel via Amtrak no matter what. The most expensive trips I use points. Here is one example why. A first class airline ticket geg-lax (spk-lax) is $932 round trip. Amtrak is $3,556 on my hypothetical June travel dates. That's for a short 8 hour EB trip plus PDX-LAX. :blink:

I guess in part that how I got to nearly 30k rail miles last year.

Apples to oranges comparison.

 

Air travel is pure transportation. Even in first class, there is no "enjoyment", just slightly less hassle and comfort. It is best compared to coach travel on the train albeit, it's speed is much faster for long distances if time to destination is the most important factor.

 

Train travel using a sleeper is a vacation in itself. For those who can't fly due to medical reasons, fear of flying or whatever, then first class air is no alternative.

This is a very good description....

 

[jmbgeg]

I travel via Amtrak no matter what. The most expensive trips I use points. Here is one example why. A first class airline ticket geg-lax (spk-lax) is $932 round trip. Amtrak is $3,556 on my hypothetical June travel dates. That's for a short 8 hour EB trip plus PDX-LAX. :blink:

I guess in part that how I got to nearly 30k rail miles last year.

You're going to have to book out farther than that for a fair comparison.

Well, I did the same itinerary, but it was for next January instead of this June. Amtrak comes out round trip of $1,592. Delta Airlines was at $1,052 for first class.

Still almost 2:00-1.

As for a later post, if there was not an enjoyment factor, I would not endure/enjoy the variance. I am not a detractor.

 

[Ryan]

1.6 to 1 isn't really "almost 2.00".

 

[Tumbleweed]

1.6 to 1 isn't really "almost 2.00".

And...if you factor in the meals, it becomes closer yet......

 

[yarrow]

i agree with what i think the op is saying: long distance sleeper travel is a land cruise, tax payer supported, for the rich. our family has been able to take a couple big ld trips a year using agr points for minimal expense but there is no way, even booking far out, we could afford ld sleeper travel anymore otherwise. as much as i enjoy riding, i don't think there is a good argument to continue the ld trains(i realize that sleeper pax by some calculations pay their way). passenger rail disappeared from the freight railroads because of planes and cars but also because they nearly always lost money on it but thought it had advertising value for their freight service. we pay taxes for roads and airports and these are modalities that actually transport people(however uncomfortably). ld trains, in my anecdotal view, transport land cruisers and people who are going from wenatchee to whitefish but could be more easily accomodated on a bus. ld trains were fun while they lasted but i don't see them lasting much longer.

 

[Mackensen]

Not to mention a markup for changing trains in Portland: you're always going to pay a certain baseline price for an accommodation no matter how far you go. Example: let's say you're going from CHI to SOB. That roomette will cost you $148 on the Capitol Limited or $162 on the Lake Shore Limited, even though you're aboard for about 90 minutes. If I did that hypothetical trip I'd consider doing PDX-SPK in coach, or even a roomette. You still get the meal and you're not really going to sleep.

Here's a sample trip for January 9, 2012 (I assume we're talking about standard bedrooms and not family bedrooms):

• Coach fare (LAX-SPK): $148
  
• Bedroom (LAX-PDX): $446
  
• Bedroom (PDX-SPK): $202 or
  
• Roomette (PDX-SPK): $132
  

I tend to assume that an included breakfast is worth $8, lunch $10 and dinner $20 when estimating costs (since I'm often traveling for business). Figure for the Coast Starlight you'll get four meals LAX-PDX: lunch, dinner, breakfast, lunch. Say $48. Throw in one wine tasting of indeterminate value (last time I was on the CS the second wine tasting occurred in Portland). Throw in a couple bucks for the free juice at TRAXX in LA. What's left is a little less than $400 for two days (albeit one night) in a private room, with access to a private first-class lounge (the parlor car). $200/day tracks fairly well with a nice hotel room, although the space and amenities are different.

The bedroom PDX-SPK is a tough sell. There's no diner, and you won't really get to sleep. No first class lounge either. From where I sit you might as well take the seat in coach and buy some food in the SSL. Save yourself $200 bucks.

There are some other economies. Baggage doesn't matter much: Delta allows three checked bags at no surcharge for First and Business Class travel. However, if you chose to do PDX-SPK in coach you wouldn't be out of pocket. If you're traveling with another person in the bedroom, you only have to pay the additional rail fare ($148), and suddenly you've almost halved the per-person cost of first-class travel. This, for me, is what really makes Amtrak attractive over long distances.

EDIT: Should have read that as SPK-LAX, not the other way round. I don't think it makes a material difference, except you get two dinners instead of two lunches on the CS.

 

[bobnabq]

Amtrak is $3,556 on my hypothetical June travel dates.

 

Wow ! At that price, I'd have to ride a freight train.

 

[jmbgeg]

i agree with what i think the op is saying: long distance sleeper travel is a land cruise, tax payer supported, for the rich. our family has been able to take a couple big ld trips a year using agr points for minimal expense but there is no way, even booking far out, we could afford ld sleeper travel anymore otherwise. as much as i enjoy riding, i don't think there is a good argument to continue the ld trains(i realize that sleeper pax by some calculations pay their way). passenger rail disappeared from the freight railroads because of planes and cars but also because they nearly always lost money on it but thought it had advertising value for their freight service. we pay taxes for roads and airports and these are modalities that actually transport people(however uncomfortably). ld trains, in my anecdotal view, transport land cruisers and people who are going from wenatchee to whitefish but could be more easily accomodated on a bus. ld trains were fun while they lasted but i don't see them lasting much longer.

Don't go there. I am well empoloyed, but not rich. Amtrak is a good option for me.

 

[ColdRain&Snow]

If you're traveling with another person in the bedroom, you only have to pay the additional rail fare ($148), and suddenly you've almost halved the per-person cost of first-class travel.

And insofar as traveling as a solo sleeping car passenger, roomette travel is a very enjoyable way to go, even preferable to some of us for reasons that have nothing to do with cost. And I think that a roomette is a more realistic accommodation to use if you insist upon comparing a first class airline seat to Amtrak's sleeping car service.

As soon as you adjust the comparison to use a roomette rather than a bedroom, the disparity you declare in your subtopic largely evaporates. Having just compared the metrics for an upcoming trip I booked yesterday, sleeping car service from Seattle to Los Angeles totaled $515.50 whereas a first class ticket on Virgin America for the same day of travel is currently priced at $530.70.

 

[AlanB]

i agree with what i think the op is saying: long distance sleeper travel is a land cruise, tax payer supported, for the rich.

Myth!

It has been well documented that sleeper passengers pay fully for their ammenities. No subsidies are being used to operate the sleepers. The only subsidy that a sleeper passenger gets is that which a coach passenger gets, namely the rail fare subsidy. And in fact, as shown in the study done by NARP, the subsidy to coach passengers would actually be slightly higher but for incremental profits earned by the sleepers; the subsidy per passenger mile with sleepers $0.1870, take away the profit from the sleeper and the subsidy would be $0.1888.

So while the claim that it's for the rich might still stand, the reality is that the sleepers are reducing the overall taxpayer subsidies to all passengers riding Amtrak; not increasing it.

 

[Guest]

i agree with what i think the op is saying: long distance sleeper travel is a land cruise, tax payer supported, for the rich.

Myth!

It has been well documented that sleeper passengers pay fully for their ammenities. No subsidies are being used to operate the sleepers. The only subsidy that a sleeper passenger gets is that which a coach passenger gets, namely the rail fare subsidy. And in fact, as shown in the study done by NARP, the subsidy to coach passengers would actually be slightly higher but for incremental profits earned by the sleepers; the subsidy per passenger mile with sleepers $0.1870, take away the profit from the sleeper and the subsidy would be $0.1888.

So while the claim that it's for the rich might still stand, the reality is that the sleepers are reducing the overall taxpayer subsidies to all passengers riding Amtrak; not increasing it.

I don't think that's even quite accurate: offseason, the sleeper fares can be quite reasonable (2-3x what the rail fare is, plus the rail fare, for a Bedroom), so despite the fact that such an accommodation equals about the space of 6 seats, the total fare received is less. So, sometimes, the subsidizing is on the other foot!

 

[jmbgeg]

i agree with what i think the op is saying: long distance sleeper travel is a land cruise, tax payer supported, for the rich.

Myth!

It has been well documented that sleeper passengers pay fully for their ammenities. No subsidies are being used to operate the sleepers. The only subsidy that a sleeper passenger gets is that which a coach passenger gets, namely the rail fare subsidy. And in fact, as shown in the study done by NARP, the subsidy to coach passengers would actually be slightly higher but for incremental profits earned by the sleepers; the subsidy per passenger mile with sleepers $0.1870, take away the profit from the sleeper and the subsidy would be $0.1888.

So while the claim that it's for the rich might still stand, the reality is that the sleepers are reducing the overall taxpayer subsidies to all passengers riding Amtrak; not increasing it.

Alan is right on point.

 

[pennyk]

i agree with what i think the op is saying: long distance sleeper travel is a land cruise, tax payer supported, for the rich.

Myth!

It has been well documented that sleeper passengers pay fully for their ammenities. No subsidies are being used to operate the sleepers. The only subsidy that a sleeper passenger gets is that which a coach passenger gets, namely the rail fare subsidy. And in fact, as shown in the study done by NARP, the subsidy to coach passengers would actually be slightly higher but for incremental profits earned by the sleepers; the subsidy per passenger mile with sleepers $0.1870, take away the profit from the sleeper and the subsidy would be $0.1888.

So while the claim that it's for the rich might still stand, the reality is that the sleepers are reducing the overall taxpayer subsidies to all passengers riding Amtrak; not increasing it.

Alan is right on point.

Isn't he always :lol:

 

[guest]

Current rail fare (at random) for Palm Springs to San Antonio on August 17: 213 dollars (train 2)

Current roomette for same: 215 dollars

Current bedroom for same: 797 dollars

Just sayin'...

 

[AlanB]

i agree with what i think the op is saying: long distance sleeper travel is a land cruise, tax payer supported, for the rich.

Myth!

It has been well documented that sleeper passengers pay fully for their ammenities. No subsidies are being used to operate the sleepers. The only subsidy that a sleeper passenger gets is that which a coach passenger gets, namely the rail fare subsidy. And in fact, as shown in the study done by NARP, the subsidy to coach passengers would actually be slightly higher but for incremental profits earned by the sleepers; the subsidy per passenger mile with sleepers $0.1870, take away the profit from the sleeper and the subsidy would be $0.1888.

So while the claim that it's for the rich might still stand, the reality is that the sleepers are reducing the overall taxpayer subsidies to all passengers riding Amtrak; not increasing it.

I don't think that's even quite accurate: offseason, the sleeper fares can be quite reasonable (2-3x what the rail fare is, plus the rail fare, for a Bedroom), so despite the fact that such an accommodation equals about the space of 6 seats, the total fare received is less. So, sometimes, the subsidizing is on the other foot!

Off season, peak season isn't the point. The net affect over one year's time is that the sleepers reduce the subsidy to the coaches. And while it might be true that during the off season the sleepers don't cover things, keep in mind that the coach subsidy also gets worse at the same time.

And it should also be noted that when this study was done it was based upon 2004 data; sleeper prices have taken a major spike since then. Far more of a spike that could be attributed to just increasing costs. Demand is way up and Amtrak is adjusting prices much higher simply because they can.

 

[Ryan]

Agreed, Alan. I'd love to see the same study on the CY 2010 data, or even the first half of FY11 data. I have a feeling that it would be eye opening for some people.

 

[Guest]

1.6 to 1 isn't really "almost 2.00".

And...if you factor in the meals, it becomes closer yet......

First class airfare has meals included as well so it is not closer. In fact first class airfare has free booze so that spreads it out actually.

I don't put much extra value in Amtrak meals. They are not bad, but they nothing to write home about either. On top of that the service is very rough around the edges (Amtrak desperately needs a good systemwide maitre'd).

 

[guest]

A roomette occupies slightly more than the square footage of three coach seats; based on the prices I posted above, do you think more money is generated by coach, or sleeper? Keep in mind, August is PEAK season!

 

[trainmaster611]

i agree with what i think the op is saying: long distance sleeper travel is a land cruise, tax payer supported, for the rich.

Myth!

It has been well documented that sleeper passengers pay fully for their ammenities. No subsidies are being used to operate the sleepers. The only subsidy that a sleeper passenger gets is that which a coach passenger gets, namely the rail fare subsidy. And in fact, as shown in the study done by NARP, the subsidy to coach passengers would actually be slightly higher but for incremental profits earned by the sleepers; the subsidy per passenger mile with sleepers $0.1870, take away the profit from the sleeper and the subsidy would be $0.1888.

So while the claim that it's for the rich might still stand, the reality is that the sleepers are reducing the overall taxpayer subsidies to all passengers riding Amtrak; not increasing it.

Do you have a link to that study?

 

[had8ley]

i agree with what i think the op is saying: long distance sleeper travel is a land cruise, tax payer supported, for the rich.

Myth!

It has been well documented that sleeper passengers pay fully for their ammenities. No subsidies are being used to operate the sleepers. The only subsidy that a sleeper passenger gets is that which a coach passenger gets, namely the rail fare subsidy. And in fact, as shown in the study done by NARP, the subsidy to coach passengers would actually be slightly higher but for incremental profits earned by the sleepers; the subsidy per passenger mile with sleepers $0.1870, take away the profit from the sleeper and the subsidy would be $0.1888.

So while the claim that it's for the rich might still stand, the reality is that the sleepers are reducing the overall taxpayer subsidies to all passengers riding Amtrak; not increasing it.

Alan is right on point.

I totally agree but what is it going to take to get Washington politicians to stop screaming "luxury land cruises?" It's almost a worn out detrimental term that might even show up in Webster's if they keep howling it in the chambers of Congress. Goes to show that even though Congress is heavily "lawyered up" that they aren't very astute on rail facts.

 

[HotlantaAl]

Current rail fare (at random) for Palm Springs to San Antonio on August 17: 213 dollars (train 2)

Current roomette for same: 215 dollars

Current bedroom for same: 797 dollars

Just sayin'...

That's for August 17, check those prices when the train pulls out of the station. I bet those accommodation charges will be must higher. Take the average accommodation cost at the day of travel and see how high it is.

Just sayin'...

 

[tnrkitect]

Let me offer a case study.

At the end of the month, I and my wife will be traveling to visit my sister-in-law at the University of Idaho in Moscow, ID (to paraphrase a local saying, Lord willing and the creek falls back down)

According to Expedia.com, flying coach from Huntsville to Spokane is $611 per person, so for my wife and I it would be $1222.

Amtrak, in coach two weeks prior to departure is $1102 per person, so a total of $2204 if you just buy on their site, however a 14 day rail pass is $398 per person, so $786 total and is more than adequate for the travel. (6 segments out of the 8 allowed)

Upgrading to 1st class air, yields a round trip price of $1953 per person, or a total of $3906, whereas my trip via Amtrak using a railpass and upgrading to Roomettes the entire distance, but instead of retracing our route back the way we came, we continue on to PDX, then LAX, then NOL before arriving back in Alabama at BHM was only $2100.

As you can see, the train is almost $1800 cheaper, and even including hotels in LAX, NOL, and Glacier park is still a cool $1000 less than 1st class airfare, and doesn't even take into consideration the meals that are included as a sleeper passenger.