Bedroom price vs. first class airfare

[AlanB]

i agree with what i think the op is saying: long distance sleeper travel is a land cruise, tax payer supported, for the rich.

Myth!

It has been well documented that sleeper passengers pay fully for their ammenities. No subsidies are being used to operate the sleepers. The only subsidy that a sleeper passenger gets is that which a coach passenger gets, namely the rail fare subsidy. And in fact, as shown in the study done by NARP, the subsidy to coach passengers would actually be slightly higher but for incremental profits earned by the sleepers; the subsidy per passenger mile with sleepers $0.1870, take away the profit from the sleeper and the subsidy would be $0.1888.

So while the claim that it's for the rich might still stand, the reality is that the sleepers are reducing the overall taxpayer subsidies to all passengers riding Amtrak; not increasing it.

Do you have a link to that study?

http://www.narprail.org/cms/index.php/resources/more/sleeping_cars/

 

[Guest]

As you can see, the train is almost $1800 cheaper, and even including hotels in LAX, NOL, and Glacier park is still a cool $1000 less than 1st class airfare, and doesn't even take into consideration the meals that are included as a sleeper passenger.

Meals are included in first class airfare as well with free booze. You are trying so hard to make a point that you overdid it and now it doesnt make sense. That doesnt matter of course since most of this is preaching to the choir.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

long distance sleeper travel is a land cruise, tax payer supported, for the rich.

Hardly. I'm not rich, but choose to spend money on LD trains because it is important enough to me. Rich is having your own private car(s) to ride around the country in. You've been listening to too much whitewashing propaganda from the extreme right wing. As you yourself say:

i realize that sleeper pax by some calculations pay their way

i don't think there is a good argument to continue the ld trains

Look at the efficiency of, and numbers of pax in Europe and Asia. I think they are good arguements for LD pax service, but yes, just like roads and airlines, it takes government support.

passenger rail disappeared from the freight railroads because of planes and cars but also because they nearly always lost money

Pax service started to loose money because of the HUGE subsidies which 'planes and cars' were given by government.

we pay taxes for roads and airports

The gas tax and airport fees do not pay for the HUGE sums of cash government continues to throw at 'planes and cars.'

...and these are modalities that actually transport people(however uncomfortably). ld trains, in my anecdotal view, transport land cruisers and people who are going from wenatchee to whitefish but could be more easily accomodated on a bus.

Bus lines get huge subsidies from the government. Its called roads. Sounds like your saying that to travel one must either be rich enough to have a private jet, private varnish, or a limo with a driver, or be uncomfortable.

ld trains were fun while they lasted but i don't see them lasting much longer.

Just what the extremist right wing and the wealthy who have jets, PV and limos, want us to believe.

 

[RCrierie]

You're going to have to book out farther than that for a fair comparison.

A better comparison would be emergency last minute trips THAT HAVE TO BE DONE RIGHT NOW!

A good example would be suddenly having to go to Florida following the death of a parent/grandparent to put their affairs in order.

A quick look on travel sites and booking systems during 5:20 to 6:00 PM on 14 May 2011 showed:

AMTK #97 Silver Meteor: 7:30 PM (2 hours from departure – WAS/ORL): $225 for coach, $583 in total for a roomette upgrade (17.5~ hrs)

United #260 10:05 PM (4.5 hours from departure – Dulles/Orlando Intl): $1,187 (2~ hrs nonstop)

(Waiting for the next day's flight listings brought the price down to $500-600 if you were willing to put up with a connecting flight to Orlando with a stopover in Atlanta or something)

You can see that the cost of traveling down to FL is less than half that of the airlines -- and you can gain the extra advantage of being able to sleep on your trip, and such a late departure plays to the train's advantage:

Air: Arrive at Dulles at 9 PM, fly out at 10 PM, land in Orlando at about 12 Midnightish; then crash at a hotel you found at around 1:30 AM. Sleep late, get out of bed at maybe 9:30 AM for the day.

Train: Get to Union Station at 6:45 PM, leave at 7:30 PM, sleep in your roomette, and arrive in Orlando around 1 PM.

Essentially with the flight, you're paying twice the money to gain about two-three hours of time if you have to leave IMMEDIATELY that afternoon.

 

[Anderson]

I'd like to point out that a roomette is generally a good choice for one person and a tight squeeze for two. To get a good comparison on a bedroom, book two people in it and compare that to two first class airfare tickets.

Edit: Could someone go ahead and check Hampton Roads to Des Moines and back around Christmas?

 

[Long Train Runnin']

I'd like to point out that a roomette is generally a good choice for one person and a tight squeeze for two. To get a good comparison on a bedroom, book two people in it and compare that to two first class airfare tickets.

Edit: Could someone go ahead and check Hampton Roads to Des Moines and back around Christmas?

I don't think Roomettes are a "tight" squeeze for two people. I've traveled across the country twice in roomettes with 2 people in the room both over 6 feet tall sure there isn't a whole lot of extra room, but I wouldn't call it a squeeze.

 

[ColdRain&Snow]

I'd like to point out that a roomette is generally a good choice for one person and a tight squeeze for two. To get a good comparison on a bedroom, book two people in it and compare that to two first class airfare tickets.

Edit: Could someone go ahead and check Hampton Roads to Des Moines and back around Christmas?

Along the same lines and as I alluded to above, when traveling solo as the OP implied through his verbiage, it is nonsensical to attempt the comparison of a deluxe bedroom to a first class airline seat. When you correct and recalibrate the comparison to use a roomette, there is simply no gaping disparity to be crowing about. I suppose it wasn't thought through carefully.

 

[Mackensen]

I'd like to point out that a roomette is generally a good choice for one person and a tight squeeze for two. To get a good comparison on a bedroom, book two people in it and compare that to two first class airfare tickets.

Edit: Could someone go ahead and check Hampton Roads to Des Moines and back around Christmas?

I suppose the closest booking would be Newport News (NPN)-Osceola (OSC). It's about fifty miles up I-35 to Des Moines. Jefferson Lines has two daily frequencies, neither of which connects with the westbound Zephyr. $13/each way, per person. You might want to consider an overnight in Osceola westbound. Ditto for the eastbound Zephyr. I'm assuming leaving NPN on Tuesday, December 20 and returning Tuesday, December 27.

Coach fare for two would be $282/outbound. Roomette on the Capitol Limited is $245 outbound; bedroom would be $534. You're only on the Zephyr six hours (2 PM-8 PM), so you could easily skip an accommodation at just eat in Osceola. Roomette would be $127; bedroom $415. Going back, the 27th is unavailable because the later Newport News trains (#83 and #99) only run Friday-Sunday. Coach fare inbound would be $328. 7 hours on the Zephyr; roomette would be $192 and bedroom $488. Roomette on the Cap would be $245; bedroom $624.

Low, middle and high estimates:

• Low (no accommodation on the Zephyr): $1,722
  
• Middle (roomette on the Zephyr): $2,041
  
• High (bedrooms all the way): $2,625
  

First class Delta Airlines from Newport News to Des Moines: $1,320 per person round-trip, or $2,725.60 (including taxes/fees) altogether.

 

[RCrierie]

Have you tried recalibrating it for extended economy class? I know that some airlines offer extended economy with more legroom (vital for a 6 footer like me).

 

[amamba]

Have you tried recalibrating it for extended economy class? I know that some airlines offer extended economy with more legroom (vital for a 6 footer like me).

Extended economy is actually a better comparison for amtrak than regular coach on a plane. I wouldn't ever put extended economy into the same category as a roomette. There is no additional space in the width of the seat and there are no additional perks over economy - except for more leg room and perhaps early boarding (depending on the airline). Not a valid comparison to sleeper IMO.

 

[Anderson]

Mack,

Thanks for checking that. Roomette-ing on the Cap (coach on the other legs), I got about $800 (it was like $790) for a round trip RVR-OSC (RVR trumps NPN because of the additional train options there...which is rather important on the way back in the event of snow). It could've been slightly less, but I opted for the Meteor home instead.

On the CZ, I generally try to grab dinner, even if I have to pay cash for it. Given how the trains run in December (a little slow), this generally works out pretty well...but I recognize that I'm gambling with it.

Comparing the $800 to the FC fare, I suspect I'm coming out well ahead (to the tune of $500)...and I'm not doing too badly vs. a coach airfare (Des Moines is a bit infamous for expensive airfares).

 

[Mackensen]

Mack,

Thanks for checking that. Roomette-ing on the Cap (coach on the other legs), I got about $800 (it was like $790) for a round trip RVR-OSC (RVR trumps NPN because of the additional train options there...which is rather important on the way back in the event of snow). It could've been slightly less, but I opted for the Meteor home instead.

On the CZ, I generally try to grab dinner, even if I have to pay cash for it. Given how the trains run in December (a little slow), this generally works out pretty well...but I recognize that I'm gambling with it.

Agreed that RVR makes more sense, but I didn't know how much you wanted to move around Virginia .

 

[PaulM]

I don't think Roomettes are a "tight" squeeze for two people. I've traveled across the country twice in roomettes with 2 people in the room both over 6 feet tall sure there isn't a whole lot of extra room, but I wouldn't call it a squeeze.

It is a tight squeeze for the rich land cruisers. But for a middle class couple who have taking many rides in them, a roomette is just about right.

 

[Anderson]

I don't think Roomettes are a "tight" squeeze for two people. I've traveled across the country twice in roomettes with 2 people in the room both over 6 feet tall sure there isn't a whole lot of extra room, but I wouldn't call it a squeeze.

It is a tight squeeze for the rich land cruisers. But for a middle class couple who have taking many rides in them, a roomette is just about right.

Well, the legroom situation can compare slightly unfavorably with coach in a roomette, especially if you want/need to doze during the day somewhere (such as some parts of the plains in the MW after an early wakeup on the way into Chicago). It can get especially tight if you've got a bad baggage situation...but you're right: I've seen it work well enough with couples, too.

 

[leemell]

i agree with what i think the op is saying: long distance sleeper travel is a land cruise, tax payer supported, for the rich. our family has been able to take a couple big ld trips a year using agr points for minimal expense but there is no way, even booking far out, we could afford ld sleeper travel anymore otherwise. as much as i enjoy riding, i don't think there is a good argument to continue the ld trains(i realize that sleeper pax by some calculations pay their way). passenger rail disappeared from the freight railroads because of planes and cars but also because they nearly always lost money on it but thought it had advertising value for their freight service. we pay taxes for roads and airports and these are modalities that actually transport people(however uncomfortably). ld trains, in my anecdotal view, transport land cruisers and people who are going from wenatchee to whitefish but could be more easily accomodated on a bus. ld trains were fun while they lasted but i don't see them lasting much longer.

This sounds like you are arguing with yourself. You have put up both sides then simply say buses work better. BTW, have you every ridden a long distance bus? Comfortable? Convenient? How was the food?

 

[Anderson]

i agree with what i think the op is saying: long distance sleeper travel is a land cruise, tax payer supported, for the rich. our family has been able to take a couple big ld trips a year using agr points for minimal expense but there is no way, even booking far out, we could afford ld sleeper travel anymore otherwise. as much as i enjoy riding, i don't think there is a good argument to continue the ld trains(i realize that sleeper pax by some calculations pay their way). passenger rail disappeared from the freight railroads because of planes and cars but also because they nearly always lost money on it but thought it had advertising value for their freight service. we pay taxes for roads and airports and these are modalities that actually transport people(however uncomfortably). ld trains, in my anecdotal view, transport land cruisers and people who are going from wenatchee to whitefish but could be more easily accomodated on a bus. ld trains were fun while they lasted but i don't see them lasting much longer.

This sounds like you are arguing with yourself. You have put up both sides then simply say buses work better. BTW, have you every ridden a long distance bus? Comfortable? Convenient? How was the food?

If you're flexible with travel dates and you do things efficiently, it's not that bad...especially if you knock a day or two off a hotel stay in the process (which is going to save you another $100-200). It's only egregiously expensive if you go with the most expensive option(s).

 

[yarrow]

BTW, have you every ridden a long distance bus? Comfortable? Convenient? How was the food?

i and our family have ridden the dog many times. i think that is part of my point. we are a hard working middle class family with 2 kids in college and another headed that way. we can afford the occasional spk-sea or spk-pdx coach trip but, without an agr award, anything more isn't in the cards for us. working the agr/bonus points/get x points for getting this credit card system we have taken several nice sleeper trips in the past few years. my observation has been that the sleepers carry mainly vacationing retirees and the coaches a more varied lot. i don't mind paying a subsidy for the coach folks though i think they could more efficently be transported by bus but i don't think we need to pay a subsidy for those in the sleepers. perhaps they recieve slightly less of a subsidy than coach passengers but i don't know as they need one at all.

 

[AlanB]

i don't mind paying a subsidy for the coach folks though i think they could more efficently be transported by bus but i don't think we need to pay a subsidy for those in the sleepers. perhaps they recieve slightly less of a subsidy than coach passengers but i don't know as they need one at all.

So you'd rather be paying a higher subsidy for those in coach by eliminating the sleepers entirely, than to pay a lower subsidy per person for everyone to move from point a to b?

Again, it's not just the sleeper pax that are getting a lower railfare subsidy because of how much they pay, those sleeper pax are reducing the subsidy for those in coach too! Take away the sleeper subsidy, by removing the sleepers, and the subsidy per person in coach goes higher.

 

[VentureForth]

1.6 to 1 isn't really "almost 2.00".

And...if you factor in the meals, it becomes closer yet......

First class airfare has meals included as well so it is not closer. In fact first class airfare has free booze so that spreads it out actually.

I don't put much extra value in Amtrak meals. They are not bad, but they nothing to write home about either. On top of that the service is very rough around the edges (Amtrak desperately needs a good systemwide maitre'd).

The included meals typically are only covered by a small token of the upgrade cost to a sleeper. It's still WAY cheaper to go Coach and pay for meals in the Diner.

That being said, a TRUE feature of sleeping class is that you are almost always guaranteed a meal - not so for poor coach pax.

It is a true travesty that there are folks willing to give Amtrak their money, but for some reason or another, Amtrak isn't equipped to get it from them (I'm specifically referring to lost dining revenue on coach pax, but other examples exist).

 

[RCrierie]

Not a valid comparison to sleeper IMO.

A transcontinental trip from Dulles to San Francisco International takes about 6 hours. The extra legroom is more than enough for a trip of that length. It's not like you're trying to sleep in the plane, unlike a 14 1/2 hour trip from Dulles to Tokyo.

 

[Oldsmoboi]

What kind of meal is served in a first class flight from LAX to ORD? Certainly not anything close to the steak that Amtrak serves... and Amtrak serves you that at least 4 times plus breakfasts and lunch

 

[yarrow]

i don't mind paying a subsidy for the coach folks though i think they could more efficently be transported by bus but i don't think we need to pay a subsidy for those in the sleepers. perhaps they recieve slightly less of a subsidy than coach passengers but i don't know as they need one at all.

So you'd rather be paying a higher subsidy for those in coach by eliminating the sleepers entirely, than to pay a lower subsidy per person for everyone to move from point a to b?

Again, it's not just the sleeper pax that are getting a lower railfare subsidy because of how much they pay, those sleeper pax are reducing the subsidy for those in coach too! Take away the sleeper subsidy, by removing the sleepers, and the subsidy per person in coach goes higher.

i don't particularly want to eliminate sleepers just the subsidy we pay for travel for sleeper passengers. make them pay the full non taxpayer supported cost of their travel as generally they can afford it.

 

[eagle628]

What kind of meal is served in a first class flight from LAX to ORD? Certainly not anything close to the steak that Amtrak serves... and Amtrak serves you that at least 4 times plus breakfasts and lunch

If it takes four steak dinners worth of time to get from CHI to LAX, it's going to take a lot more than good food to get me back on another train in the future.

 

[Oldsmoboi]

i don't mind paying a subsidy for the coach folks though i think they could more efficently be transported by bus but i don't think we need to pay a subsidy for those in the sleepers. perhaps they recieve slightly less of a subsidy than coach passengers but i don't know as they need one at all.

So you'd rather be paying a higher subsidy for those in coach by eliminating the sleepers entirely, than to pay a lower subsidy per person for everyone to move from point a to b?

Again, it's not just the sleeper pax that are getting a lower railfare subsidy because of how much they pay, those sleeper pax are reducing the subsidy for those in coach too! Take away the sleeper subsidy, by removing the sleepers, and the subsidy per person in coach goes higher.

i don't particularly want to eliminate sleepers just the subsidy we pay for travel for sleeper passengers. make them pay the full non taxpayer supported cost of their travel as generally they can afford it.

Well it's happening on it's own already. Sleeper prices have increased greatly

 

[Trogdor]

i don't particularly want to eliminate sleepers just the subsidy we pay for travel for sleeper passengers. make them pay the full non taxpayer supported cost of their travel as generally they can afford it.

That's already happening. I don't know how this could be made any clearer.

Given that the train is already running (and since you are okay with subsidizing coach travel, then we must assume that the train will run), Amtrak is better off financially by offering and selling sleeper space than by not doing so.