border patrol on LSL

[dedhd]

While heading to the diner on the LSL last Sat morning as I was passing through the coaches (from the Bos Sleepers) there were two border patrol agents asking people if they were American Citizens. This was in Erie at 7am or so. Most of the people in coach looked to be asleep so I thought this rather intrusive, but a dinding companion said he saw someone being ushered off the train. Don't know if this is a common occurance or not, but I did feel a bit safer.

 

[the_traveler]

The Border Patrol can question anyone - in any vehicle or even on foot - within 100 miles of the border. The LSL is within 100 miles of the border at that point. (Maybe within 5 miles!)

 

[Long Train Runnin']

They did the same thing last week in Rochester on an Empire Service train. I wonder why they are stepping up.

 

[dlagrua]

I don't get the point. If someone is aboard is an illegal alien, would they answer the questions by the border patrol honestly? The only thing thst they can ask aboard a domestic train is for some form of identification. You do not have to show proof of US citizenship to ride Amtrak. This situation sounds like someone tried to escape from the border patrol and may have found his way on the LSL.

 

[RRrich]

I don't get the point. If someone is aboard is an illegal alien, would they answer the questions by the border patrol honestly? The only thing thst they can ask aboard a domestic train is for some form of identification. You do not have to show proof of US citizenship to ride Amtrak. This situation sounds like someone tried to escape from the border patrol and may have found his way on the LSL.

The ony thing that AMTRAK can ask for is some form of ID, but thes were Border Patrol Officers and I suspect they can ask for more

 

[jis]

I don't get the point. If someone is aboard is an illegal alien, would they answer the questions by the border patrol honestly? The only thing thst they can ask aboard a domestic train is for some form of identification. You do not have to show proof of US citizenship to ride Amtrak. This situation sounds like someone tried to escape from the border patrol and may have found his way on the LSL.

The ony thing that AMTRAK can ask for is some form of ID, but thes were Border Patrol Officers and I suspect they can ask for more

Also, you'd be amazed how much info about you is linked to the forms of Id that are acceptable to Amtrak. The border patrol can pretty much figure out the legitimacy or lack thereof of a person pretty much using the driver's license and a few calls to home base. And once they have reasonable cause for suspicion, all bets are off.

 

[leemell]

The Border Patrol can question anyone - in any vehicle or even on foot - within 100 miles of the border. The LSL is within 100 miles of the border at that point. (Maybe within 5 miles!)

Actually, the law says "reasonable distance" which has been interpreted as 100 miles, if a judge was so inclined, he could allow almost any distance.

 

[leemell]

I don't get the point. If someone is aboard is an illegal alien, would they answer the questions by the border patrol honestly? The only thing thst they can ask aboard a domestic train is for some form of identification. You do not have to show proof of US citizenship to ride Amtrak. This situation sounds like someone tried to escape from the border patrol and may have found his way on the LSL.

The ony thing that AMTRAK can ask for is some form of ID, but thes were Border Patrol Officers and I suspect they can ask for more

Also, you'd be amazed how much info about you is linked to the forms of Id that are acceptable to Amtrak. The border patrol can pretty much figure out the legitimacy or lack thereof of a person pretty much using the driver's license and a few calls to home base. And once they have reasonable cause for suspicion, all bets are off.

Only two pieces of info are needed to ID almost anyone, your name and your birth-date.

 

[jis]

Only two pieces of info are needed to ID almost anyone, your name and your birth-date.

Yep, and they are available from all acceptable Ids. Of course if it is a foreigner one may or may not be able to get too much more from that. Hence the CAPS system which tries to capture and document more info for anyone that flies into US. I don't know what Canada requires, or Mexico for that matter, for those foreigners that arrive there and then cross land borders into the US, and how much of that info ICE/CBP has access to.

 

[amamba]

While heading to the diner on the LSL last Sat morning as I was passing through the coaches (from the Bos Sleepers) there were two border patrol agents asking people if they were American Citizens. This was in Erie at 7am or so. Most of the people in coach looked to be asleep so I thought this rather intrusive, but a dinding companion said he saw someone being ushered off the train. Don't know if this is a common occurance or not, but I did feel a bit safer.

You mut be kidding when you said you felt safer. These types of intrusive searches do not make anyone safter. They are the beginning of our steady erosion of civil liberties. How ridiculous to wake people to ask for these types of documents. What is this, communist russia or na** germany? I for one, would not be happy to be woken up to show some border agent my DL and confirm that I was an american citizen. I just think the whole scenario seems ridiculous when the train doesn't even cross the border. I understand the need to check documentation at a border crossing and have no problem with that.

 

[Ispolkom]

You mut be kidding when you said you felt safer. These types of intrusive searches do not make anyone safter. They are the beginning of our steady erosion of civil liberties. How ridiculous to wake people to ask for these types of documents. What is this, communist russia or na** germany? I for one, would not be happy to be woken up to show some border agent my DL and confirm that I was an american citizen. I just think the whole scenario seems ridiculous when the train doesn't even cross the border. I understand the need to check documentation at a border crossing and have no problem with that.

I agree with you except for the comparison to the Soviet Union. I traveled extensively by train in the Soviet Union (mostly in 1990 and 1991) and I was *never* asked to show my papers, except when crossing international borders. I remember at the time thinking it preposterous that the Soviets had rules against photographing train stations and bridges, and never imagined that I'd someday be hassled for doing this in my own country.

 

[Rumpled]

California has no law that you must show ID to the police in general. Don't know if a federal law may usurp that or not.

All in all, BP, ICE, TSA all them are totally ineffectual at accomplishing anything other than intruding on our civil liberties.

 

[the_traveler]

I don't get the point. If someone is aboard is an illegal alien, would they answer the questions by the border patrol honestly?

Probably not, but it's also the way they answer the question.

If you were asked your citizenship, most likely a US citizen would answer "American" or even "US". I'm not profiling anyone, but if the person answers "United States of America" and has a foreign accent, they may not be a US citizen! Or if they hesitate ("Uh, uh, uh ... American") or seem nervous, they may not be a US citizen or are trying to hide something (such as drugs)! Remember - the BP is not only looking for foreigners! A nervous American may be carrying a load of drugs from NYC to CHI too!

I have nothing to hide, and it does not bother me at all being asked.

 

[leemell]

California has no law that you must show ID to the police in general. Don't know if a federal law may usurp that or not.
All in all, BP, ICE, TSA all them are totally ineffectual at accomplishing anything other than intruding on our civil liberties.

In 2004 the US Supreme Court ruled that you must ID yourself if requested by the police. http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/06/24/dorf.police.id/

 

[Ispolkom]

In 2004 the US Supreme Court ruled that you must ID yourself if requested by the police. http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/06/24/dorf.police.id/

Huh? To quote from the article you cite: "All nine justices agreed that a person who is not behaving in a way that gives rise to an articulable suspicion of criminality may not be required to state his name or show identification." We have not yet descended to a state where the police can arbitrarily ask for my papers.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I have no problem providing ID when picking up tickets, boarding (train/plane/bus)or crossing borders!Also refusing to ID when asked by a cop in Texas (no comments Dave! )is a Felony and you can be arrested! Like all authoritarian organizations (government/the military/churches/schools etc.)police tend to be over zealous, especially after the fact!

I guarantee you are gonna have a real hassle with cops if you take an attitude when they ask for ID and where you are from/going etc. As the song says: "..I'd just as soon answer and then be on my way.." All these terrorists and wanna bes have passports/IDs etc. so the security theater is just for show like most government operations, dog and pony shows are big in all governments!Relax and enjoy the trip!

 

[AlanB]

I don't get the point. If someone is aboard is an illegal alien, would they answer the questions by the border patrol honestly? The only thing thst they can ask aboard a domestic train is for some form of identification. You do not have to show proof of US citizenship to ride Amtrak. This situation sounds like someone tried to escape from the border patrol and may have found his way on the LSL.

It's not that someone tried to escape from border patrol; they do this type of inspection almost daily. It's done in part because many people slip over the border in places where there is no check point, then figure that they're home free. It was a lesson learned in California, where many people used to slip over the border and then get into a car. When they setup check points on the roads, they took to the riding the trains. So now they check the trains for people, while still setting up check points from time to time on the roads too. In fact, for many years coming down I-87 from Canada one would find a check point about 50 miles north of Lake George. They finally closed that check point after several bad accidents because people weren't expecting the stopped traffic on an Interstate Highway. Someone wisely decided that killing US citizens wasn’t part of the border patrol’s job. And that’s not a joke; several people were indeed killed in the many accidents.

This doesn't mean that I like what they're doing, just explaining why they do it.

I don't like what they're doing because I object to the idea that 300 US citizens are being delayed in the vague hope that they somehow manage to catch someone who doesn't belong here. If they want to conduct these inspections, then they need to be done in such a manor that doesn't interfere and delay everyone one on the train. That means boarding the agents at one stop and taking them off at the next, or perhaps at some RR crossing further down the road. The right to check for illegals shouldn't interfere with the rights of all those other's on the train to arrive as scheduled at their destinations.

Additionally I don't like this because they are profiling people. They'll tell you that they don't, but it is an absolute fact that they are. And I'm not talking about them targeting people who look foreign, although I suspect that happens too since it is human nature. I'm talking about the fact that it is assumed that if you have enough money to buy a sleeper, that you are obviously not an illegal. I have yet to see them questioning people in the sleepers. That's profiling! :angry:

Mind you, I don't want to start getting bothered in my sleeper, I won't be happy with that either. I'm simply suggesting that the entire process is illegal because they are profiling and it should be stopped for that reason and because they are delaying everyone else.

 

[AlanB]

I don't get the point. If someone is aboard is an illegal alien, would they answer the questions by the border patrol honestly?

Probably not, but it's also the way they answer the question.

If you were asked your citizenship, most likely a US citizen would answer "American" or even "US". I'm not profiling anyone, but if the person answers "United States of America" and has a foreign accent, they may not be a US citizen! Or if they hesitate ("Uh, uh, uh ... American") or seem nervous, they may not be a US citizen or are trying to hide something (such as drugs)! Remember - the BP is not only looking for foreigners! A nervous American may be carrying a load of drugs from NYC to CHI too!

I have nothing to hide, and it does not bother me at all being asked.

What you're saying Traveler is also part of the reason for doing it so early in the morning at Erie, PA. They figure that someone just waking up is more likely to make a mistake.

Not to mention that of course the entire process is just more eerie in Erie.

 

[jmbgeg]

While heading to the diner on the LSL last Sat morning as I was passing through the coaches (from the Bos Sleepers) there were two border patrol agents asking people if they were American Citizens. This was in Erie at 7am or so. Most of the people in coach looked to be asleep so I thought this rather intrusive, but a dinding companion said he saw someone being ushered off the train. Don't know if this is a common occurance or not, but I did feel a bit safer.

At King Street Station in Seattle, there is a new big screen HD television in the seating area with videos on Amtrak security and border crossing requirements. Good information for the public traveling to and from Vancouver B.C. I am sure the arrival of this equipment and video coincides with the onset of the Olympics. PDX could have used the same thing.

 

[dedhd]

i too thought it a bit intrusive at first but then thinking about it I DID feel a bit safer knowing that Amtrak/BP was at least making some attempt at on board security. Face it one of the reasons we choose train is because it is low hassle, not too many rules (plus a whole list of other reasons like comfort relaxing etc.). This is also what makes it a pretty easy choice for the criminal element, and frankly a soft target. I am all for the rights of US citizens and do not want the gov to overstep it's bounds, but I also want safety and part of the relaxing journey is knowing that the powers to be are doing their part to keep us safe. I did not see anyone being asked to produce documentation, but then again I was just passing through. Maybe they had a specifac individual in mind I don't know.Don't want to get too political here about rights vs safety, but I don't mind a little scrutiny for the good of the whole.

 

[jis]

i too thought it a bit intrusive at first but then thinking about it I DID feel a bit safer knowing that Amtrak/BP was at least making some attempt at on board security.

Huh? :unsure: What makes you think CBP doing a sweep of the train to catch illegal immigrants does anything about increasing security on the train. Do you really believe that someone who is trying to sneak into the country and get to wherever they want to go are going to be interested in creating a scene on the train that they are using as the means for transport, or harm anyone on the train per se? That being the case, what exactly are they likely to be securing the train against? A big bomb carrying terrorist perhaps? :lol:

 

[amamba]

i too thought it a bit intrusive at first but then thinking about it I DID feel a bit safer knowing that Amtrak/BP was at least making some attempt at on board security.

Huh? :unsure: What makes you think CBP doing a sweep of the train to catch illegal immigrants does anything about increasing security on the train. Do you really believe that someone who is trying to sneak into the country and get to wherever they want to go are going to be interested in creating a scene on the train that they are using as the means for transport, or harm anyone on the train per se? That being the case, what exactly are they likely to be securing the train against? A big bomb carrying terrorist perhaps? :lol:

I don't see the connection between checking trains for people in this country illegally and safety, either.

 

[TVRM610]

This is nothing new... when i rode the LSL in November of 08 I remember them coming through coach in the morning. I personally had no problem with it, they were polite and courteous about it.

 

[physdude]

This is nothing new... when i rode the LSL in November of 08 I remember them coming through coach in the morning. I personally had no problem with it, they were polite and courteous about it.

Unfortunately, they were not quite as courteous in me and my wife's case. They woke us up rudely in the middle of the night at Rochester, even more rudely stated that both my state ID and university ID were useless documents :angry: , went through a whole series of checks and finally verified I was here legally (though they had to admit their systems still do not properly register changes of immigration status - a real *** moment ). What I don't understand is why the state ID, for which I had to produce a whole series of documents, is useless for identification, particularly since that is the ostensible purpose for which it is issued. Further, it brings up the question as to why there is no sane ID system here in the 21st century. I have no problem if everyone is supposed to have their papers with them all the time but it has to be done in some sort of sensible manner. It would also help if the officers are somewhat courteous and if the checks are done during daytime.

This is apparently an old issue (see http://www.amny.com/urbanite-1.812039/advo...amtrak-1.897012 and http://www.asianweek.com/2000_05_25/news_amtrak.html) though I was unaware of it earlier.

While I liked the Lakeshore with it's glorious views and have taken it several times, this is going to make me think twice about using Amtrak again and it also means that I can't recommend it to anyone. Pity since it is so much more environmentally friendly than air travel.

 

[the_traveler]

This is nothing new... when i rode the LSL in November of 08 I remember them coming through coach in the morning. I personally had no problem with it, they were polite and courteous about it.

Unfortunately, they were not quite as courteous in me and my wife's case. They woke us up rudely in the middle of the night at Rochester

......

While I liked the Lakeshore with it's glorious views and have taken it several times, this is going to make me think twice about using Amtrak again and it also means that I can't recommend it to anyone. Pity since it is so much more environmentally friendly than air travel.

I'm sorry they were discourteous to you, but if you said "Rochester" and "middle of the night", unless the LSL was really late, I do not consider about 10 PM to be "the middle of the night". (I'm assuming you went westbound, because eastbound time is mid to late morning.)

Is that a valid reason not to take or recommend Amtrak? :huh: Except for 3 routes (LSL, EB and SL) you should not see BP at all on the trains (except of course the trains that cross the border). Now airports have "Security" check (where they check your ID, check your bags, check your person, etc...) at EVERY airport! I for one have had enough with the airport "Security Circus", that last month, I decided to take a train home cross country than to fly cross country! (And I have over 500,000 frequent flyer miles!)

BTW - Welcome!