Brightline Trains Florida discussion 2023 Q4

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It means at 25mi you have x% of all people making the trip choosing train, and 50mi y% where y < x. It’s a useful abstraction for planning because a 25mi shape is easier to reason about than a 45 minutes at 9am on a Tuesday shape.
At RTD, we had a tool called "the egg" which was an egg-shaped piece of cardboard. The center of the egg was placed over a prospective park-n-Ride location, with the small end pointing at the CBD, or university, or medical complex, etc. Based on license plate studies, it was remarkably accurate at showing where a rule of thumb 80% of the demand would come from. IF I remember correctly, the long end of the egg went out about 10 miles, keeping in mind that this was for bus facilities with few priority measures.

Of course, there may be a pick-up with Wyoming plates sitting in the lot, but that's why the rule of thumb only predicts for 80%.

For the Oregon state employee commuter buses started up in the 1974 Energy Crisis we called the plotted home addresses of our members the "comet" map. The head of the comet was at the parking lot, with lines trailing out to home and almost no one backtracking. The lack of backtracking was probably due to the Interstate being wide open at their location and a shorter drive to Salem. There were a few oddities, such as cyclists, connections from Tri-Met transit buses, or people who were dropped off in the evening at different locations than home. Recollecting all this, the 80% rule and the longest tail being 10 miles probably applied to the comet map, too.

These methods were especially handy when they would reveal overlaps where infill locations were being promoted by interested parties.
 
With investment in infrastructure and appropriate scheduling to make different express-levels of service that bypass less-busy stations it's fine.

On the Tōkaidō Shinkansen (if you've seen a photo of a bullet train going past Mt. Fuji, it's that one) between Tokyo and Osaka, you have the "Kodama" ("Echo") service that stops at all sixteen stations and takes 4h, "Nozomi" ("Wish") that stops at just six and takes 2.5h, and "Hikari" ("Light") that stops at nine and takes about 3h. The Kodama service isn't worse than Nozomi except that it stops more places, just like Brightline trains that stop in Boca aren't any worse than ones that don't.
Sadly service on all Tokaido Shinkansen have suffered since 10/31 as they stopped all trolley-cart snack services. Yes, you always had to pay for this service (even in Green Car) but it was nice to have the smiling faces meet you at your seat. There will still be vending machines and Green Car passengers will be able to order at their seat (for a fee) on an app.

When I was growing up, they still had buffet cars on the old Series-0. Then the Series-100 had cool double decker coaches for Green Cars (two in the middle of the consist). No more double deckers on Tokaido, and I think they either have or are planning to remove the MAX sets on the Tohoku (?) line.

Sorry. Went off script here.

An hour and a half is a huge delta between Kodama and Nozomi. I was able to snag a JR Pass before the rate increase for my trip next month, so I won't be able to get Nozomi. Interestingly, the number of Kodama and Hikarai have dropped significantly since my last touristy visit in 2005.
 
At RTD, we had a tool called "the egg" which was an egg-shaped piece of cardboard. The center of the egg was placed over a prospective park-n-Ride location, with the small end pointing at the CBD, or university, or medical complex, etc. Based on license plate studies, it was remarkably accurate at showing where a rule of thumb 80% of the demand would come from. IF I remember correctly, the long end of the egg went out about 10 miles, keeping in mind that this was for bus facilities with few priority measures.

Of course, there may be a pick-up with Wyoming plates sitting in the lot, but that's why the rule of thumb only predicts for 80%.

For the Oregon state employee commuter buses started up in the 1974 Energy Crisis we called the plotted home addresses of our members the "comet" map. The head of the comet was at the parking lot, with lines trailing out to home and almost no one backtracking. The lack of backtracking was probably due to the Interstate being wide open at their location and a shorter drive to Salem. There were a few oddities, such as cyclists, connections from Tri-Met transit buses, or people who were dropped off in the evening at different locations than home. Recollecting all this, the 80% rule and the longest tail being 10 miles probably applied to the comet map, too.

These methods were especially handy when they would reveal overlaps where infill locations were being promoted by interested parties.
That "egg model" is probably the best fit for what I think you'd be looking for. You'd probably want two eggs (one for NB traffic, one for SB traffic) at each location...but those eggs would mostly show what you were shooting for.
 
This. It unfortunately ignores othee nuances that influence the decision (either to take the train or which station to pick).
I agree. It's a metric that may have made sense in the days of slide rules and typewriters, but with modern computing power being near unlimited they can surely come up with a more nuanced analysis.
 
I agree. It's a metric that may have made sense in the days of slide rules and typewriters, but with modern computing power being near unlimited they can surely come up with a more nuanced analysis.
They do the more nuanced analysis in the more detailed Tier II EIS. The simpler model is used. In the more abstract Tier I the more abstract model is used usually.
 
In trying to digest all the responses (thank you), to my question, how far would the average person drive to ride a train as a percentage either of distance or time, I still don't see my answer...perhaps I should take a survey? 🤷‍♂️
 
In trying to digest all the responses (thank you), to my question, how far would the average person drive to ride a train as a percentage either of distance or time, I still don't see my answer...perhaps I should take a survey? 🤷‍♂️
Good idea. Go for it. I did not answer since any answer that I give, I know, would be a WAG at best, and you are (or anyone else for that matter is) as good at coming with those as I am. 😁
 
Anyone try their checked baggage service? I will be going to Miami in a couple months and I'm planning on flying down to Orlando to ride Brightline to Miami for the experience (I've been on Brightline before, back when they were only operating between Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach hah!)

I will be booked in Premium, so I will have a free checked bag. I might want to check my bag and go on a joyride on SunRail before I head back to take Brightline to Miami. Will they take my bag many hours before my train departs?
 
Anyone try their checked baggage service? I will be going to Miami in a couple months and I'm planning on flying down to Orlando to ride Brightline to Miami for the experience (I've been on Brightline before, back when they were only operating between Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach hah!)

I will be booked in Premium, so I will have a free checked bag. I might want to check my bag and go on a joyride on SunRail before I head back to take Brightline to Miami. Will they take my bag many hours before my train departs?
I checked the first bag in revenue service way back when...

It was quick and easy but I don't know how early they take bags.
 
Anyone try their checked baggage service? I will be going to Miami in a couple months and I'm planning on flying down to Orlando to ride Brightline to Miami for the experience (I've been on Brightline before, back when they were only operating between Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach hah!)

I will be booked in Premium, so I will have a free checked bag. I might want to check my bag and go on a joyride on SunRail before I head back to take Brightline to Miami. Will they take my bag many hours before my train departs?
From Terms of Service | Brightline :

Baggage must be checked at the in-station Guest Services counter no less than 15 minutes prior to the passenger’s train departure time. No baggage will be accepted any earlier than four (4) hours prior to departure.
 
Thank you! I was looking for a baggage policy page, and/or the baggage terms on the booking page and didn't find them. They need to make this information easier to find!

Looks like I might have to lug my bag onto SunRail then!
 
Thank you! I was looking for a baggage policy page, and/or the baggage terms on the booking page and didn't find them. They need to make this information easier to find!

Looks like I might have to lug my bag onto SunRail then!
According to Frequently Asked Questions - Orlando International Airport (MCO) , there’s a luggage storage service at the B terminal, so you will have to ride an APM but that’s probably still better than dragging it on commuter rail.
 
Just as a note, I can offer a rather low opinion of the current Brightline app at this point. Setting aside its inability to sync with a travel credit from a few months ago, I was unable to get it to book an Uber while on my way down to Miami tonight (I'm still on my way and I got the ride dealt with via a phone call, but that was annoying).

Edit to add: The ride I had called in was scheduled too close to the train's arrival to get my checked bag and then make the car. I'm also not sure if it will register as free or not, but if it doesn't I'm going to have words with Brightline.
 
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Coca will have a catchment area stretching from Titusville to Melbourne, and even parts of Palm Bay. We are talking a population of around 600K.

I think capturing additional ridership for well managed revenue should almost always add revenue for additional riders. What is more relevant is the quality of the additional revenue, i.e. is it enhancing net earnings or depleting.

It should be noted that not all infill stations will be served by Brightline. Due to the density of population along the route, inevitably over time local suburban service run by counties will develop in the form of a lower tier service serving many local stations. We observe this in spades on the NEC for example, where more infill stations are being built, some even served by Amtrak.

Specifically for Brightline even on the higher speed stretch there are plans and set aside space for a station at Innovation Way which will be served by SunRail and not by Brightline. If the East-West Corridor is developed then another infill station at Goldenrod Road is a possibility too.
This is all super fascinating stuff.
I think it’s also interesting to see how having a good train corridor, with difference kinds of service, impacts land use and zoning around stations, therefore inducing even more ridership - presumably.
 
This is all super fascinating stuff.
I think it’s also interesting to see how having a good train corridor, with difference kinds of service, impacts land use and zoning around stations, therefore inducing even more ridership - presumably.
To me that's what annoys me so much about the last century of passenger rail in Florida; we had it a hundred years ago! Even disregarding the parts south of Homestead that blew away in a hurricane, most of my in-state travels are within ten miles of historic stations, and so many of these destinations still have the echoes of that history, but it's just the architecture or the steam locomotive on the sign for a dive bar, none of the four hour rides from Melbourne to Miami (I will gladly say Brightline Ft. Lauderdale is a lot nicer than the passenger station in that timetable though). From downtown Miami north to Jacksonville it's still a freight corridor, but only between West Palm and Dadeland South is there any existing development benefiting from rail passengers.
 
Looks like I should have taken my inaugural ride sooner. No, this isn't "average" but they are sure getting booked up on weekends. This is the Sunday after Thanksgiving:

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There are some SUPER bargains to West Palm from MCO - as low as $49.50 in Smart, but those premium seats are hard to get under $200 for any run from MCO on a weekend. Meanwhile, you can still score $99 fares in Premium and as little as $39 from MCO during the week. You know...when I'm at work...and can't ride it. :p
 
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Looks like I should have taken my inaugural ride sooner. No, this isn't "average" but they are sure getting booked up on weekends. This is the Sunday after Thanksgiving:

View attachment 34615

There are some SUPER bargains to West Palm from MCO - as low as $49.50 in Smart, but those premium seats are hard to get under $200 for any run from MCO on a weekend. Meanwhile, you can still score $99 fares in Premium and as little as $39 from MCO during the week. You know...when I'm at work...and can't ride it. :p
The little mentions of the Kaseya Center there are cute, assuming they're promoting that you'll be able to get to the 8p concert: "Myke Towers is bringing his La Vida Es Una Tour to the Kaseya Center on Sunday, November 26, 2023."

Brightline does buy ad space for Miami Heat home games on the NBA website too:
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I don't think any wraps have been replaced yet. I believe there are currently 4 full train wraps and a single car wrap which would mean 42.5% of the entire fleet. The full wraps are Visit Orlando, Justworks, Orlando Health and, most recent I've seen, The Palm Beaches. Having 4 is just overkill to me.
I hope Brightline is at least making good money off the wraps.
 
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